How have the farang expat demographics changed?

[LomSak27]

More Farangs have moved into the condo I live at. Noted by the G and the concierge..This during the semi quarantine of the last year. As they are not recent arrivals to Thailand they are just moving. What does it all mean? A redistribution of an already existing population base & the southside of town is getting popular.

[NoshowJones]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:21 AM, polpott said:

A lot of "snowbirds" haven't returned. I haven't seen one that I know. The majority in my area were French, so less French.

Would that have been a bad thing?

[DaLa]

Depends where you are.

 

We have a few places in Nonthaburi where nothing has changed at all. I rarely see a farang never mind speak to one. We have shops in Chatuchak and have witnessed first hand the lack of farangs there. There was always a good number of younger travellers and families calling in for a day out.

 

Then we have a place in Cha Am. At this time of year we would normally have half a dozen snow birds from Europe and Scandinavia joining us for street parties and general socialising. There is a notable lack of them this year and that is impacting on the bars and restaurants which if busy are busy with mainly Thai and a few of us retirees.

[NoshowJones]

19 hours ago, natway09 said:

I do not see a great change in the "true" expat that lives here all year, obviously very few of the nomad variety (6/7 months a year) as I know of 25 at least that are missing in action (Covid restrictions) & only seen 4 that have been through quarantine to get back.

But this is no doubt not attributable only to Thailand as the whole world is going through the wringer

But how many countries have as much hoops to go through as Thailand?

[desert dueller]

On 1/2/2021 at 8:15 AM, BritManToo said:

The hiking club I belong to has changed from almost all white to almost all Chinese.

The Chinese tend to be entire families, where the white folk were mainly single, or married to locals.

Last hike was 2 Brit guys, one Russian lady and about 20 Chinese.

Did you wear your ear plugs?

[Leaver]

Foreign expats living here will decline in the future.  

 

It was a holiday to Thailand, and then repeat holidays to Thailand, year after year, that "advertised" Thailand as a retirement destination.  

 

Less westerners are holidaying to Thailand now. (pre covid)  That means less westerners get to consider Thailand as a future retirement destination.  There are several reasons for this, but the main one would be Thailand no longer offers a value for money holiday. 

 

When Thailand was cheap and nasty, westerners could overlook the nasty, because it was cheap.  Now, Thailand is a little expensive, and many western tourists are not prepared to pay western prices, and still get the nasty. 

 

Of course, there will still be new retirees here, but it will not keep up with the attrition rate of the generation before them.  Once the current generation of expat retirees pass, they will not be replaced in the numbers we have seen in the past.

 

Chinese, Russian and Indians make up the bulk of the tourist numbers now.  I can't see Mr. Lee from China, Mr. Petrov from Russia, and Mr. Patel from India taking a Thai prostitute from a bar for marriage, nor, can I see them aspiring to buy a property and retire here in the future.  

 

For westerners who are near retirement, and planned to retire to Thailand, with the exchange rates and interest rates so low now, they may not have the quality of life in retirement here than they would in say, Vietnam.  So, Thailand is now in competition for expat retiree money, with many other neighbouring countries offering easier and cheaper long term visas.  In fact, Spain is very much now back in favour with Europeans as a retirement destination.  

 

I a similar demographic of retired expat in the future, just a whole lot less of them, and this has nothing to do with covid.   

[Leaver]

On 1/4/2021 at 8:49 AM, LomSak27 said:

More Farangs have moved into the condo I live at.

 

Do you think that would be an upgrade, or a downgrade for them?  ????

[BritManToo]

On 1/4/2021 at 7:00 PM, Leaver said:

For westerners who are near retirement, and planned to retire to Thailand, with the exchange rates and interest rates so low now, they may not have the quality of life in retirement here than they would in say, Vietnam.  So, Thailand is now in competition for expat retiree money, with many other neighbouring countries offering easier and cheaper long term visas.  In fact, Spain is very much now back in favour with Europeans as a retirement destination.

You can't beat the Thai rental prices for cheap.

Certainly not in Spain, not so much in Vietnam or Cambodia either.

On the other hand France has the cheapest property prices in the world, 20k Euro for a run down farmhouse in a rural area with a heap of land.

[VBF]

On 1/4/2021 at 3:07 AM, possum1931 said:

But how many countries have as much hoops to go through as Thailand?

Precisely! I'm usually a "snowbird" but obviously not this winter. Even if UK restrictions ease, I feel the Thai ones are still going to be there for a good long while.

[moontang]

I have a ticket for April, through HND to DC.  About the only way I could avoid TG.  Looking about 50-50 at this point, as well as for a no ASQ return in Q4.  The begging around here has gotten as bad as San Fran. 

Edited January 9, 2021 by moontang

[Leaver]

19 hours ago, BritManToo said:

You can't beat the Thai rental prices for cheap.

Certainly not in Spain, not so much in Vietnam or Cambodia either.

On the other hand France has the cheapest property prices in the world, 20k Euro for a run down farmhouse in a rural area with a heap of land.

 

The cost of living has risen significantly in Thailand over recent years, whilst exchange rates have dropped due to the strong baht, and interest rates low, so less income generated by cash deposits.

 

Accommodation (housing) is just one facet in the cost of living.  

 

Neighbouring countries are cheaper in many regards, with no decrease in lifestyle.  

 

Add to the above, easier and cheaper visas, with less requirements, and the writing is on the wall that many retirees may chose a different country in South East Asia to retire to.  

[moontang]

9 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

The cost of living has risen significantly in Thailand over recent years, whilst exchange rates have dropped due to the strong baht, and interest rates low, so less income generated by cash deposits.

 

Accommodation (housing) is just one facet in the cost of living.  

 

Neighbouring countries are cheaper in many regards, with no decrease in lifestyle.  

 

Add to the above, easier and cheaper visas, with less requirements, and the writing is on the wall that many retirees may chose a different country in South East Asia to retire to.  

Not much talk lately about the hoarders of expats heading to VN.  It was a major topic a few years ago, but I recall they tightened visa restrictions a lot.  The scene with the  VN girls seems a lot more like us farang with the Chinese girls than us farang with Thai girls.  Likely, many more would not want anything to do with a farang.  The beer prices looked good, but rarely do I see good food photos or farang with good lookers half their age.  I had enough experience with illegitimate Catholics in Arizona to know that I want nothing to do with the Flips. Malaysia, Indo?  Not into Islamic Cancer, either. 

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

The cost of living has risen significantly in Thailand over recent years, whilst exchange rates have dropped due to the strong baht, and interest rates low, so less income generated by cash deposits.

 

Accommodation (housing) is just one facet in the cost of living.  

I haven't really noticed much in the way of price rises, those have been offset by my reduced need for outside entertainment.

The pound did a big drop 5 years back (from 50 to 40) and stayed the same ever since while my pension rose by 9%/year.

My mortgage repayments have dropped from 6.25% to 4.75%.

Where I used to spend 50k/month, now it's down to 40k/month

 

In two months time my daughters university fees are finished, giving me a big boost in monthly spending.

All in all, I'm quids in.

Edited January 9, 2021 by BritManToo

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, moontang said:

Not much talk lately about the hoarders of expats heading to VN.  It was a major topic a few years ago, but I recall they tightened visa restrictions a lot.  The scene with the  VN girls seems a lot more like us farang with the Chinese girls than us farang with Thai girls.  Likely, many more would not want anything to do with a farang.  The beer prices looked good, but rarely do I see good food photos or farang with good lookers half their age.  I had enough experience with illegitimate Catholics in Arizona to know that I want nothing to do with the Flips. Malaysia, Indo?  Not into Islamic Cancer, either. 

 

Not sure about hordes of expats, although I know a few guys there that sold up from Thailand and moved to Vietnam.  One guy lives there with his Thai missus.  

 

Plenty of tourists though.  This was Jan 2020, so pre covid. Up 32%.  

 

https://vietnamtourism.gov.vn/english/index.php/statistic/international?csrf_test_name=0cc0d6b8fe54764ce7fef0052186076f&txtkey=&year=2020&period=t1

 

"International visitors to Viet Nam in 1/2020 estimated 1.994.125 arrivals, increase 16,6% over 12/2019 and up 32,8% over the same period last year. 2019."

 

Vietnam offers a 5 year multiple entry marriage visa, no other requirements, for about $50.  They also offer a 2 year permanent resident card.  Similar to Thailand, they have visa agents, and they can get you what you want.

 

As for the girls, foreigners are still a novelty there, and you have regular girls, not hookers, trying to strike up conversation with you.  

 

A beer in a beer bar is about 25 baht.  (yes, no misprint, about 25 baht)

 

Food is tasty and cheap also, without the worry of how much chilli could go in it in the kitchen.

 

Foreigners can "own" property there now, but it's for 50 years, instead of 30 years, like in Thailand. 

 

Very progressive country for tourism.  Eg. casinos.  

 

A lot of money being poured into infrastructure as well.  

 

In my opinion, Vietnam is, or soon will be, Thailand's biggest competitor, not just for the expat market, but also for tourists.    

 

[Leaver]

19 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I haven't really noticed much in the way of price rises, those have been offset by my reduced need for outside entertainment.

The pound did a big drop 5 years back (from 50 to 40) and stayed the same ever since while my pension rose by 9%/year.

My mortgage repayments have dropped from 6.25% to 4.75%.

Where I used to spend 50k/month, now it's down to 40k/month

 

In two months time my daughters university fees are finished, giving me a big boost in monthly spending.

All in all, I'm quids in.

 

Of course, I was speaking general terms.  

 

Thailand climbs in global rankings for cost of living, and that was in  2018. 

 

https://www.nationthailand.com/Economy/30347587#:~:text=CITIES in Thailand have risen,software for the management firms.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Leaver

[moontang]

On 1/9/2021 at 5:38 PM, Leaver said:

 

Not sure about hordes of expats, although I know a few guys there that sold up from Thailand and moved to Vietnam.  One guy lives there with his Thai missus.  

 

Plenty of tourists though.  This was Jan 2020, so pre covid. Up 32%.  

 

https://vietnamtourism.gov.vn/english/index.php/statistic/international?csrf_test_name=0cc0d6b8fe54764ce7fef0052186076f&txtkey=&year=2020&period=t1

 

"International visitors to Viet Nam in 1/2020 estimated 1.994.125 arrivals, increase 16,6% over 12/2019 and up 32,8% over the same period last year. 2019."

 

Vietnam offers a 5 year multiple entry marriage visa, no other requirements, for about $50.  They also offer a 2 year permanent resident card.  Similar to Thailand, they have visa agents, and they can get you what you want.

 

As for the girls, foreigners are still a novelty there, and you have regular girls, not hookers, trying to strike up conversation with you.  

 

A beer in a beer bar is about 25 baht.  (yes, no misprint, about 25 baht)

 

Food is tasty and cheap also, without the worry of how much chilli could go in it in the kitchen.

 

Foreigners can "own" property there now, but it's for 50 years, instead of 30 years, like in Thailand. 

 

Very progressive country for tourism.  Eg. casinos.  

 

A lot of money being poured into infrastructure as well.  

 

In my opinion, Vietnam is, or soon will be, Thailand's biggest competitor, not just for the expat market, but also for tourists.    

 

But, farang can buy freehold condo, so that would be a checkmark for LOS. Which country has been taken advantage of more by the Chinese?  I always heard the VN hated the Chinese.. Maybe as much as the Japanese... but simple hate often isn't enough to stop trade or massive infrastructure projects. 

[Nout]

'farang'....oh dear! Why exclude all the non white foreigners living here? But to indulge you and answer your question: not really.

[Leaver]

13 minutes ago, moontang said:

But, farang can buy freehold condo, so that would be a checkmark for LOS. Which country has been taken advantage of more by the Chinese?  I always heard the VN hated the Chinese.. Maybe as much as the Japanese... but simple hate often isn't enough to stop trade or massive infrastructure projects. 

 

The use of the word "Freehold" is misleading in Thailand.  You know that.  51% to 49% voting rights etc etc. 

 

It's true, the Vietnamese don't like China.  They tried to take a piece of them many years ago and failed, unlike Thailand, who is selling their sovereignty to them. 

 

One article of many about how manufacturing is moving out of Thailand to Vietnam.  

 

 https://www.thaienquirer.com/15225/more-and-more-manufacturers-are-moving-to-vietnam-while-the-use-of-ftas-in-thailand-has-dropped-because-of-covid-19/#:~:text=Statistics-,Manufacturers are moving to Vietnam while the use of FTAs,dropped because of COVID-19&text=Manufacturers in garment%2C plastic and,gain benefits from trade deals.&text=About 800 Thai employees will be let go as a result.

 

China has also lost manufacturing to Vietnam.

 

https://asiatimes.com/2020/11/a-plea-for-help-as-china-loses-jobs-to-vietnam/

 

The smart money has been moving to Vietnam for some time now, long before covid.

[moontang]

What is misleading?  A condo is either leasehold or freehold, period.  Foreigners can also vote on condo business. 

[moontang]

39 minutes ago, Nout said:

'farang'....oh dear! Why exclude all the non white foreigners living here? But to indulge you and answer your question: not really.

It would be hard for most of us to know what happened to the Chinese Expats, for example.  

[newnative]

9 hours ago, moontang said:

What is misleading?  A condo is either leasehold or freehold, period.  Foreigners can also vote on condo business. 

    Correct.  Freehold or leasehold refers to the land the condo project sits on and has nothing to do with foreign ownership, voting rights, or voting percentages.  A condo project will be either freehold or leasehold for both Thai and foreign buyers.  

    As for the 51/49% for voting, a condo project can actually have more foreign voters depending on how many of the condo units are purchased by foreigners in company name.  I think that is perhaps the case with the condo project where I live.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think there is nothing in the condominium laws that states that the condo board has to be majority Thai.   

[moontang]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

    Correct.  Freehold or leasehold refers to the land the condo project sits on and has nothing to do with foreign ownership, voting rights, or voting percentages.  A condo project will be either freehold or leasehold for both Thai and foreign buyers.  

    As for the 51/49% for voting, a condo project can actually have more foreign voters depending on how many of the condo units are purchased by foreigners in company name.  I think that is perhaps the case with the condo project where I live.  Someone can correct me if I am wrong but I think there is nothing in the condominium laws that states that the condo board has to be majority Thai.   

I have heard of the work permit issue raised regarding farang on condo boards... But it is not unheard of. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by moontang

[RamenRaven]

The younger foreigner crowd has mostly disappeared due to COVID restrictions.

 

Students, backpackers, digital nomads, athletes, adventurers below the age of 35 are mostly gone.

 

I'm one of the few left. I mostly have to do things by myself now.

[moontang]

12 hours ago, RamenRaven said:

The younger foreigner crowd has mostly disappeared due to COVID restrictions.

 

Students, backpackers, digital nomads, athletes, adventurers below the age of 35 are mostly gone.

 

I'm one of the few left. I mostly have to do things by myself now.

It is a noticeably older farang crowd nowadays. Would be interesting to see the age distribution of the ASQ detainees, but I would guesstimate the majority of them are over 50.  KSR is quite a bit more dead than Sukhumvit. 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Personally, covid hasn't changed my life at all (other than crippling one of our businesses). . . I have more in my in-tray than ever before. Frankly I'm kind of enjoying Thailand more now there are no tourists. I can even walk down the main drag here without a phukcing tuk tuk driver shouting 'TUK TUK,TUK TUK' at me. . . so for me, this has been the change in demographics, the locals know that whatever farangs are left are teflon coated, so just don't bother even trying.

 

Now is surely the best time to holiday in Thailand. A few months ago we had a very nice family break at the Sheraton in Hua Hin. Empty hotel, swimming pool to ourselves, empty beach. Wonderful.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by NilSS

[Pilotman]

I much prefer Thailand and my area, including the local City of Pattaya, much more now.  I know that its selfish of me, but I dread it all going back to what it was before Covid and what it was rapidly becoming. The masses of coaches and hoards of Chinese tourists were making the whole area a difficult place to live, get around and enjoy.  No doubt it will go back at some point as the Thai authorities never seem to learn where their future lies and its not in hoards of Chinese people, spending next to nothing and destroying all around them. Ah well, it will be what it will be. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Pilotman

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Don't get me started on the Chinese. Now they've gone, our swimming pool is 100% water. Before Covid, it was 50% water 50% Chinese p!S$ and spit.

[connda]

How has it changed?

My village is a bastion of normalcy.  The further you go up the valley the  less "plague fear" you encounter.

Drive 30 minutes in the other direction to Lamphun and the fear junkies are masked up and fearful.

I like rural living.

Regarding the 6 US friends of mine who have made an annual month-long trip to Thailand for years?
They went to Mexico this year.  No plans on returning.
People I know who could be tourists?  No interest in Thailand.

Edited March 6, 2021 by connda

[connda]

21 minutes ago, NilSS said:

Don't get me started on the Chinese. Now they've gone, our swimming pool is 100% water. Before Covid, it was 50% water 50% Chinese p!S$ and spit.

What an incredibly racist comment.  Hummm.  ????

[connda]

16 hours ago, RamenRaven said:

The younger foreigner crowd has mostly disappeared due to COVID restrictions.

 

Students, backpackers, digital nomads, athletes, adventurers below the age of 35 are mostly gone.

Actually I know quite a few who are still here although I have no idea how they manage to legally remain.  Mostly young women in the 20s to 30s range. Still out teaching yoga and stuff.  I have no idea.  All I know is once a year (like this month) Thai immigration tries to find a way to kick me out of the country and destroy my family unit. Like clockwork.

Edited March 6, 2021 by connda