House impeaches Trump after U.S. Capitol siege; his fate in Senate hands

[J Town]

16 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

It's a new world now, and the last remnants of racist voting measures and Republican suppression measures are falling by the wayside.

It's the worst kept secret in politics - without cheating, the Republicans would never win another election.

[Sujo]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There appears to be controversy about this though. At this point it appears that the impeachment will be sent to the senate while Mr. trump is still in office and then it will be up to the democratic majority senate whether to begin a trial or not. My impression is that the trial WILL happen and will happen after Mr. trump is out of office. We'll see, huh?

The other thing to consider is the charges may not necessarily be illegal acts. So if they cannot try him in the senate and he cant be charged under the criminal act his dastardly deeds go unpunished.

 

Thats why originalist constitutionalists have it wrong. Like in any law its the intent of the law. What was their intention when drafting the law/constition.

[cmarshall]

20 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Thats not correct. The senate is there to find him guilty or not. They also determine the sentence, which can be in the articles of impeachment sent to the senate. Removal from office is but one sentence they can impose, but not restricted to.

 

What's not correct?  The question is whether the Senate has jurisdiction to try a former president for articles of impeachment.  The appellate court judge I quoted made the case against such jurisdiction.   The outcome of a Senate impeachment trial in all cases is removal from office.  Neither the House nor anyone else gets to specify that since it is in the Constitution.  

[J Town]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There appears to be controversy about this though. At this point it appears that the impeachment will be sent to the senate while Mr. trump is still in office and then it will be up to the democratic majority senate whether to begin a trial or not. My impression is that the trial WILL happen and will happen after Mr. trump is out of office. We'll see, huh?

It's my understanding once an impeachment has been completed, the Senate MUST by law hold court. Of course, if it's a dishonest Senate such as this outgoing bunch of crooks, they just rubber stamp a sham. The incoming bunch of crooks may actually hold an honest trial. Time will tell.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Sujo said:

The other thing to consider is the charges may not necessarily be illegal acts. So if they cannot try him in the senate and he cant be charged under the criminal act his dastardly deeds go unpunished.

 

Thats why originalist constitutionalists have it wrong. Like in any law its the intent of the law. What was their intention when drafting the law/constition.

I don't get what you're talking about. Impeachment charges have nothing to do with charges under normal law. Impeachment charges can be anything congress says they are. 

[RichardColeman]

More daft posturing. The guy will be out in a week, just let it be. All that will happen now is more violence and potentially more death from both left and right. You don't broker peace with an opposition followers by canonising Trump in the eyes of his supporters.

[cmarshall]

24 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Scotus has no say on how the senate can vote. Separation of power. The senate is the only place to deal with it. All scotus can do is rule if the sentence is unconstitutional.

 

btw, its not impeaching a former president. He has been impeached as a current president.

 

I am not going to both debating these points since they all arise from sloppy use of language.  Read the judge's opinion and argue against that if you can.

[J Town]

1 minute ago, Sujo said:

The other thing to consider is the charges may not necessarily be illegal acts.

What is an impeachable offense? Anything that Congress SAYS is so.

[J Town]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I don't get what you're talking about. Impeachment charges have nothing to do with charges under normal law. Impeachment charges can be anything congress says they are. 

Dang it - you beat me to it once again! ????

[cmarshall]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There appears to be controversy about this though. At this point it appears that the impeachment will be sent to the senate while Mr. trump is still in office and then it will be up to the democratic majority senate whether to begin a trial or not. My impression is that the trial WILL happen and will happen after Mr. trump is out of office. We'll see, huh?

 

There is no controversy on where to find the Impeachment Clause of the Constitution.

 

The Dems probably will conduct a trial even after Trump has left office.  The legal implications won't actually matter at all, because the Senate will certainly not convict Trump.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, RichardColeman said:

More daft posturing. The guy will be out in a week, just let it be. All that will happen now is more violence and potentially more death from both left and right. You don't broker peace with an opposition followers by canonising Trump in the eyes of his supporters.

More death from the left?  Come on.  This was a far right crowd. 

 

Justice needs to be served.  An example needs to be set.  Just letting him and his enablers get away with this is not the way to go.

 

As for brokering peace?  Never happen.  The radical right are too indoctrinated into the BS of Trumpism for that to happen.

[J Town]

1 minute ago, RichardColeman said:

More daft posturing. The guy will be out in a week, just let it be. All that will happen now is more violence and potentially more death from both left and right. You don't broker peace with an opposition followers by canonising Trump in the eyes of his supporters.

One more time:

I was moving out of the family house in a week. Today, I pushed my grandma down the stairs, killing her. My parents want to call the cops and hold me accountable for my actions. I tell them what will that do to help unify the family? See how that works?

 

 It looks like you're attempting to jump to "healing" and "unity" without passing through "accountability" and "consequences."

Please go back and finish "accountability" and "consequences" before trying to load "healing" and "unity."

[RichardColeman]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

More death from the left?  Come on.  This was a far right crowd. 

 

As for brokering peace?  Never happen.  The radical right are too indoctrinated into the BS of Trumpism for that to happen.

You get the right out, the left will counter it with their own demo (and vice versa) and there will be fighting - there always is.

75 million voted for Trump - that's an awful lot of indoctrinated.

Let it go, it's like a scab that will never heal if you keep picking at it

[ChouDoufu]

7 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Unfortunately, trying the President for impeachment after he has left office is probably unconstitutional.  If McConnell were serious about getting rid of Trump he and Schumer would have called the Senate back into emergency session to conduct the trial before Trump leaves office.  

 

The Impeachment Clause, Article II, Section 4 states:

 

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

 

It seems pretty clear that the point of impeachment is removal from office.  A former president cannot be removed from office and is therefore not subject to impeachment.

 

Therefore, if the Senate goes ahead and tries Trump after Jan. 20 and if, big "If," they can muster a two thirds vote in the Senate to convict, I expect a court will subsequently overturn the conviction.

 

I understand the case that is being made for the opposite view, but I think it is weak.

 

you've missed a bit.  article I, section 3, clause 7:

 

 

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

 

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S3-C7-1-1/ALDE_00000037/

 

i believe that disqualification is voted on after the removal, which is immediate upon conviction. 

 

in that case, no longer serving as president is not a bar to impeachment proceedings continuing.

 

he's already been impeached, for a bigly winningly second time.  don't see that the constitutional rules say that proceedings have to stop because he was able to run out the clock, just means that one of the possible punishments is irrelevant.

Edited January 14, 2021 by ChouDoufu

[Phulublub]

2 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Let it go, it's like a scab that will never heal if you keep picking at it

Let it go in the same way the Trump acolytes let the lost election go?

 

PH

[J Town]

Just now, RichardColeman said:

You get the right out, the left will counter it with their own demo (and vice versa) and there will be fighting - there always is.

75 million voted for Trump - that's an awful lot of indoctrinated.

Let it go, it's like a scab that will never heal if you keep picking at it

And if you allow terrorist groups to do things like, oh, I don't know, CONSPIRE TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT without accountability and consequences, don't you think they'll do it again?

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

You get the right out, the left will counter it with their own demo (and vice versa) and there will be fighting - there always is.

75 million voted for Trump - that's an awful lot of indoctrinated.

Let it go, it's like a scab that will never heal if you keep picking at it

Get rid of the hate speech and misinformation from the right, and the left will accordingly back down.  Easy.

 

Not all who voted for Trump support this violence.  Only a small minority.

 

Sorry, but justice needs to be served.  To all who enabled this attack on our capitol building, our democracy, and caused the loss of lives.  Ya just can't turn your back on this.  It's too significant.

[J Town]

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

<snip>

To all who enabled this attack on our capitol building, our democracy, and caused the loss of lives.  Ya just can't turn your back on this.  It's too significant.

It coming to light some Republican politicians led groups throughout the capitol building, pointing out the best places to terrorize. If this is so, it is textbook treason and should be dealt with as such.

[Bluespunk]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

Some Republicans argued that the impeachment drive was a rush to judgment that bypassed the customary deliberative process such as hearings and called on Democrats to abandon the effort for the sake of national unity and healing.

 

LOL

[Walker88]

15 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

More daft posturing. The guy will be out in a week, just let it be. All that will happen now is more violence and potentially more death from both left and right. You don't broker peace with an opposition followers by canonising Trump in the eyes of his supporters.

"Broker peace"

 

Not sure how to broker peace between people who are captured by delusion and lies, and who are firmly convinced they are doing what is right.

 

45 is never going to admit he lied. He may even have deluded himself into thinking he won an election where he was, in fact, clobbered. His enablers in Congress either fear losing the votes of his base, or fear violence directed toward them by his base (learning from the chants of 'Hang Mike Pence"). Thus, the base is going to continue to be fooled by lies.

 

Adding to the above, there is no brokering peace with people who want to hang the VP or execute the Speaker, especially since their violence is based on delusion.

 

The only alternative is to punish, both the terrorists and the liars who spout such idiocy to a deluded base.

 

The US has to demonstrate two things, both to itself and to the world:

 

1) ALL are equal under the law, including the POTUS

 

2) The US is not so weak that it fears a bunch deluded, but violent, gun-totting domestic terrorists

 

[ChouDoufu]

5 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

I still dont "accept" that it was fair, or right, or that the playing field was in any way level. 

 

And it was a very narrow win in the presidency. Only a few 100k votes spread across 3 states and it took a huge, 4 year long campaign of attacks, a pandemic, government shutdowns without aid, a tech monopoly influencing readers, legacy media picking sides, and changing voting rules at the last minute just to squeak out this narrow win. (Nobody cares about popular vote) 

 

They got their very narrow senate majority, but they won't pass anything substantial because its so narrow. Plenty of red state dems careers on the line.  

 

My prediction going forward is that its only going to get worse. 

 

a narrow win?  306-232 is indeed a landslide, according to the president himself!

 

In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 27, 2016

https://www.factcheck.org/2016/11/trump-landslide-nope/

[Sujo]

15 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

you've missed a bit.  article I, section 3, clause 7:

 

 

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

 

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S3-C7-1-1/ALDE_00000037/

 

i believe that disqualification is voted on after the removal, which is immediate upon conviction. 

 

in that case, no longer serving as president is not a bar to impeachment proceedings continuing.

 

he's already been impeached, for a bigly winningly second time.  don't see that the constitutional rules say that proceedings have to stop because he was able to run out the clock, just means that one of the possible punishments is irrelevant.

And a similar case has already happened. The process is not limited to the president, but also civil servants, which was the case of a senator who was impeached and even though he resigned before it was heard in the senate they did hold a trial.

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/7573149/donald-trump-impeachment-removal-from-office-presidency/

 

 

[Psimbo]

I see some moon-howler 'stop the steal' Republican Congresswoman is threatening to start impeachment proceedings against Biden the day after his inauguration. The swamp just gets worse. Trump has destroyed the country with his recent actions.

 

https://www.cbs46.com/news/ga-congresswoman-promises-to-file-articles-of-impeachment-against-biden/article_c3eb4bc8-5603-11eb-bd26-83d0ec6001f3.html Also in a BBC article.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by onthedarkside
oversized font text removed

[Chomper Higgot]

32 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

More daft posturing. The guy will be out in a week, just let it be. All that will happen now is more violence and potentially more death from both left and right. You don't broker peace with an opposition followers by canonising Trump in the eyes of his supporters.

And you don’t make peace with terrorists while they are pointing a gun in your face.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

Here is one opinion by a former appellate court judge that holds that Trump cannot be subjected to an impeachment trial in the Senate after Jan. 20. 

 

And here's the exact opposite opinion from an even more prominent legal source:

 

The Senate can constitutionally hold an impeachment trial after Trump leaves office

 

Laurence H. Tribe is the Carl M. Loeb University Professor Emeritus at Harvard Law School and most recently the co-author of “To End A Presidency: The Power of Impeachment.”

 

"The Senate appears unlikely to take up the article of impeachment against President Trump before his term ends next Wednesday. That does not require the end of proceedings against him. The Senate retains the constitutional authority — indeed, the constitutional duty — to conduct an impeachment trial against the soon-to-be-former president."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/13/senate-impeachment-trial-constitutional-after-trump-leaves/

 

Thus far, I haven't seen or read anything convincing that the Senate cannot hold a trial on Trump's just-occurred impeachment once he's already out of office.

 

From everything I've read, the Senate still has the power to hold a trial and decide whether or not to convict Trump on the charges. And then, since he'll already be out of office at that point, their only other choice would be whether or not to also vote to bar from from holding any future federal office.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ChouDoufu]

5 hours ago, ExpatOK said:

The anti Trump crowd in DC has become totally unhinged and the American people see it.  An over emotional reaction to a speech where Trump said he wanted a peaceful protest.  A long trial in the Senate will only help Trump and hurt Nancy and gang. More facts will come out. Pelosi, operating on emotion only, has guaranteed Trump's exoneration and reelection in 2024.

 

when i'm feeling emotional, i must admit, i've never felt the urge to storm the capitol while congress was in session, demand the vice president be brought out to be hanged, rip down an american flag to replace with the flag of a politician, or, gosh, bash in a cop's head with a fire extinguisher.

Edited January 14, 2021 by ChouDoufu

[Berkshire]

31 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

34 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

More daft posturing. The guy will be out in a week, just let it be. All that will happen now is more violence and potentially more death from both left and right. You don't broker peace with an opposition followers by canonising Trump in the eyes of his supporters.

More death from the left?  Come on.  This was a far right crowd. 

 

Justice needs to be served.  An example needs to be set.  Just letting him and his enablers get away with this is not the way to go.

 

As for brokering peace?  Never happen.  The radical right are too indoctrinated into the BS of Trumpism for that to happen.

I for one have no desire to make peace with these nutty Trump supporters.  Sure they were lied to, but they embraced the lies.  They reveled in it.  So screw em.  If they want to live their remaining days in denial, anger, and hate, do it.  And if they break the law, nail them.  I'd have more sympathy for people who fell for a Nigerian scam.  At least these people have the intelligence and fortitude to admit they were conned.  Trump supporters?  Never. 

[Jeffr2]

8 minutes ago, Psimbo said:

I see some moon-howler 'stop the steal' Republican Congresswoman is threatening to start impeachment proceedings against Biden the day after his inauguration. The swamp just gets worse. Trump has destroyed the country with his recent actions.

 

https://www.cbs46.com/news/ga-congresswoman-promises-to-file-articles-of-impeachment-against-biden/article_c3eb4bc8-5603-11eb-bd26-83d0ec6001f3.html Also in a BBC article.

 

LOSER

Yeah, she's a nasty piece of work.  Stunning how they fall for the lies on QAnon.  Boggles my mine.  Shows why democracy is perhaps a failed form of government.  The people aren't smart enough to vote for the good politicians.

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, Berkshire said:

I for one have no desire to make peace with these nutty Trump supporters.  Sure they were lied to, but they embraced the lies.  They reveled in it.  So screw em.  If they want to live their remaining days in denial, anger, and hate, do it.  And if they break the law, nail them.  I'd have more sympathy for people who fell for a Nigerian scam.  At least these people have the intelligence and fortitude to admit they were conned.  Trump supporters?  Never. 

I use to live in a small, rural town in the US.  I was in the bank and overheard a heated exchange going on. 

 

It was an older white guy, young Asian gal on his arm, arguing with bank employees that he had every right to send money to this Nigerian because he was going to get 20,000 USD.  It was guaranteed. 

 

More people started chiming in, but he wouldn't budge.  He was sure he'd get money by just wiring over a few hundred dollars.

 

Dumb and dumber.  Just like some of Trump's supporters.

[Jim1000]

Was there ever a swamp to drain in the first place  ?