Explainer: Impeachment or the 14th Amendment: -Can Trump be barred from future office?

[VBF]

On 1/14/2021 at 10:10 AM, spidermike007 said:

A few considerations:

1. Few like a loser. If they did not know Trump was a loser before, they sure will know it once he leaves the White House, and returns to his failing business.

2. I believe he will soon be forgotten. Just a terribly bad memory.

3. There is virtually no chance of him winning in 2024. I have been wrong before. But, as time goes on, he will become more and more irrelevant. Hopefully.

4. Without Twitter, FB, Instagram and Youtube, he is a 305 lb. zero.

5. There is a general assumption his physical and mental health keeps up. It appears over the past 6 months or so, both are on a serious decline. He will be 78 or 79 in 2024. And he is NOT healthy.

6. Lastly, the GOP will likely not stick with him, after he is gone. At least, if they are sane and have some reason.

7. It is likely that the only ones with more skeletons in their closets, are Papuan Highlander cannibals. Tax fraud? The SDNY could get a conviction. Let us hope and pray for that.

 

8. Contrary to the self created myth, Trump can barely negotiate his way out of a paper bag. Just think of how many have gotten over on him, and taken advantage of his lack of skill and prowess, in the past few years. Putin, Xi, Kim, MBS, and countless others. Now, the leaked tax returns paint the rest of the sorry picture. 17 major business failures! Possibly a record. And financial losses for decades. Unless he is lying to the IRS too. Very possible. 

 

9. His base has been dwindling since the election. Alot of conservative friends and family I have been speaking with, agree Biden won, and the fraud thing is a bit much, and a sure sign of a sore loser. I think the DC fiasco backfired for sure, and he lost alot of his "middle of the road, sensible, hard working, decent people" base. 

 

10. It is an astonishing thing, to witness a man who was already psychologically unstable, completely come unhinged. He is rambling and incoherent in his speech now, utterly desperate, and increasingly dangerous. There should be some national security laws in place, that allow Trump to be locked up in jail, until the 20th. He is a dangerous man, and a threat to the nation. And as far as charging the Trump rioters with serious charges, I have no issue with that. But, only a small percentage of the ones who broke into the capital building were arrested. I am hoping many are found, and charged with sedition. They deserve that. 

 

A good friend of mine said to me a couple of weeks ago that "America will look back on this period of its history and hang its head in shame"

Bit like that little "Police Action" in Vietnam then? ????

Edited January 16, 2021 by VBF

[billd766]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

You're splitting hairs.  I don't think anyone believes the end goal isn't to disqualify him from running in 2024.   And for 46% of Americans, this whole fiasco looks suspiciously like a planned attempt to defund any investigation into the election. 

 

They may be wrong, but optics and confidence in the vote are pillars of our republic.  With 46% of Americans doubting the cleanliness of the election, bad things are on the horizon.

 

How do you KNOW that 46% of Americans doubting the cleanliness of the election? Have you done a survey or a poll?

 

Before the fiasco many people might have believed that, but since the fiasco, IMHO many people will have changed their minds.

 

There is a hardcore on both sides who will never believe that they are wrong but a large part of the Republicans will have thought long and hard about what was done in their name. Again this is only my opinion.

[GrandPapillon]

2 hours ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Correct, and the responsibility resides with trump since this whole "stop the steal" b*****t is his idea and he knows very well how uncritical and excitable the ever-trumper lemmings are.

Charge him, try him, convict him and incarcerate him. Lock him up! 

Trump not agreeing with the election results is perfectly legitimate, and he is perfectly entitled to voice his opinion or question the election results. Nothing illegal, and nothing immoral here.

 

if there was a real plan by "army" insiders to stage a coup with the mini-insurrection, how can you blame Trump for it? he didn't know about it and couldn't know about it. Private initiatives being entirely projected to the responsibility of a single leader, just for political reasons, is textbook North Korea MO, so I would worry more about Nancy primary motives and MO more than anything.

[Sujo]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

Trump not agreeing with the election results is perfectly legitimate, and he is perfectly entitled to voice his opinion or question the election results. Nothing illegal, and nothing immoral here.

 

if there was a real plan by "army" insiders to stage a coup with the mini-insurrection, how can you blame Trump for it? he didn't know about it and couldn't know about it. Private initiatives being entirely projected to the responsibility of a single leader, just for political reasons, is textbook North Korea MO, so I would worry more about Nancy primary motives and MO more than anything.

Its not legitimate if he made up the reasons himself for not accepting his loss. Which is obvious by his 60 losses in court, yet he still doesnt accept it.

 

Smooth transition of power and all that.

 

its easy to blame trump for it, he told them to come to dc as it will be wild, told them so many times to march to capitol hill and fight, fight fight. Jnr got into the act and rudy jumped n for trial by combat.

 

Many of those terrorists arrested have already stated they did it on the orders of trump.

[impulse]

58 minutes ago, billd766 said:

How do you KNOW that 46% of Americans doubting the cleanliness of the election? Have you done a survey or a poll?

 

Before the fiasco many people might have believed that, but since the fiasco, IMHO many people will have changed their minds.

 

There is a hardcore on both sides who will never believe that they are wrong but a large part of the Republicans will have thought long and hard about what was done in their name. Again this is only my opinion.

 

Admittedly, my numbers were from December polls.  

 

Here's a more recent poll, with links to another recent poll.  Not quite 46%, but pretty close.  If only 55% trust it...  Help me with the math.

 

While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.

 

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/11/22225531/joe-biden-trump-capitol-inauguration

 

[placeholder]

52 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

Trump not agreeing with the election results is perfectly legitimate, and he is perfectly entitled to voice his opinion or question the election results. Nothing illegal, and nothing immoral here.

 

if there was a real plan by "army" insiders to stage a coup with the mini-insurrection, how can you blame Trump for it? he didn't know about it and couldn't know about it. Private initiatives being entirely projected to the responsibility of a single leader, just for political reasons, is textbook North Korea MO, so I would worry more about Nancy primary motives and MO more than anything.

It may be legal but it's not legitimate to repeat accusations that have been disproven. And repeat them over and over again. There was a time when that tactic was called The Big Lie.

[Solinvictus]

Is it me or do the supporters of the Republican Party seem divided over supporting such a character such as Donald J. Trump opposed to continuing on with exploiting the lower classes?

 

It would be wise to remember that FDR ( Republican) provided several social services/programs that Americans once enjoyed. Today, things are different. Progressive aren't demanding much nor strong as they once were. CIA's propaganda has really hit the hearts of many Americans...some of which previously were hippies..What happened?

 

The TV...

#boomers

[Scott]

A trolling meme has been removed.  It's a discussion forum.  

[impulse]

40 minutes ago, placeholder said:

It may be legal but it's not legitimate to repeat accusations that have been disproven. And repeat them over and over again. There was a time when that tactic was called The Big Lie.

 

That's a fallacy.  There's a difference between unproven and disproven.

 

Let's see what happens in Arizona...  Maricopa county will be a good test case.  That's if the AZ Election Commission complies with the AZ State Senate subpoenas to turn over the goods.  So far, they don't think they have to.   It would certainly shut down the conspiracy theories.  Wonder why they'd resist?

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by impulse

[candide]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

That's a fallacy.  There's a difference between unproven and disproven.

 

Let's see what happens in Arizona...  Maricopa county will be a good test case.  That's if the AZ Election Commission complies with the AZ State Senate subpoenas to turn over the goods.  So far, they don't think they have to.   It would certainly shut down the conspiracy theories.  Wonder why they'd resist?

 

It's the accuser who has to prove It's worth investigating, not the opposite.

If I accuse you of being a murderer, you could not disprove it, right? Would it be legitimate?

On top of it, Trump and his scam allies have been proven  wrong several times. Hand recounts have been conducted, etc.. In Georgia, It's been checked three times. Did Trump and the other scammers a knowledge it?

[impulse]

29 minutes ago, candide said:

It's the accuser who has to prove It's worth investigating, not the opposite.

If I accuse you of being a murderer, you could not disprove it, right? Would it be legitimate?

On top of it, Trump and his scam allies have been proven  wrong several times. Hand recounts have been conducted, etc.. In Georgia, It's been checked three times. Did Trump and the other scammers a knowledge it?

 

If you had sworn affidavits from 10 people swearing they saw me commit a murder, I suspect they'd investigate.

 

Hand counting ballots is of limited value if they don't vet the ballots for legitimacy.  Or allow the witnesses to examine and challenge the ballots as they're being counted.  Which was not allowed during the Georgia recounts. 

 

The devil's in the details.  That's why the Arizona case will be a great test case.  They're planning to go soup to nuts, checking ballots for authenticity, legitimacy and accuracy, re-counting them, and doing a forensic analysis of the voting machines.  If they find nothing wrong, it should shut most conspiracy theorists up.  Which leads me to wonder why the AZ Election Commission has refused to turn over the goods to the AZ State Senate- including the Dominion machines.  It's in the court now.

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by impulse

[candide]

36 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

If you had sworn affidavits from 10 people swearing they saw me commit a murder, I suspect they'd investigate.

 

Hand counting ballots is of limited value if they don't vet the ballots for legitimacy.  Or allow the witnesses to examine and challenge the ballots as they're being counted.  Which was not allowed during the Georgia recounts. 

 

The devil's in the details.  That's why the Arizona case will be a great test case.  They're planning to go soup to nuts, checking ballots for authenticity, legitimacy and accuracy, re-counting them, and doing a forensic analysis of the voting machines.  If they find nothing wrong, it should shut most conspiracy theorists up.  Which leads me to wonder why the AZ Election Commission has refused to turn over the goods to the AZ State Senate- including the Dominion machines.  It's in the court now.

 

You're not going to start again with affidavit. None of these so-called affidavits have been accepted as valid, or they have already been proven wrong.

As to the Arizone case you mention, it will end up as the other ones and it will not stop the usual suckers from believing Trumps lies.

Edited January 16, 2021 by candide

[impulse]

7 minutes ago, candide said:

You're not going to start again with affidavit. None of these so-called affidavits have been accepted as valid or have already been proven wrong.

As to the Arizone case you mention, it will end up as the other ones and it will not stop the usual suckers from believing Trumps lies.

 

Affidavits are sworn statements made under penalty of perjury.  Point to one instance where one of the witnesses has been prosecuted for making a false statement.  Because I guaranty you the Trump haters would love to make an example of a few of them, to shut the rest up.

 

[candide]

10 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Affidavits are sworn statements made under penalty of perjury.  Point to one instance where one of the witnesses has been prosecuted for making a false statement.  Because I guaranty you the Trump haters would love to make an example of a few of them, to shut the rest up.

 

Yet the US justice system did not accept them as valid or has considered they were wrong. These affidavits are irrelevant.

Edited January 16, 2021 by candide

[candide]

15 minutes ago, impulse said:

Because I guaranty you the Trump haters would love to make an example of a few of them, to shut the rest up.

 

Dominion is starting to take care of them.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/531858-dominion-sends-witness-who-appeared-with-giuliani-cease-and-desist

[impulse]

10 minutes ago, candide said:

Dominion is starting to take care of them.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/531858-dominion-sends-witness-who-appeared-with-giuliani-cease-and-desist

 

 

Typical big company, using lawsuits to shut down their detractors.

 

Maybe not so smart.  The lawsuits will lead to a process of discovery that will open up the machines to forensic analysis.  There's a pack of IT guys just waiting to open them up.

[GrandPapillon]

there is no point discussing logic and principles with the anti-Trump crowd, they are completely blinded by their hatred, which says more about them than anything ????

 

Trump is a pig, we all know that, but he was the voice of the neglected, and this you can't ignore, even with an impeachment

[Walker88]

4 hours ago, impulse said:

 

 

Typical big company, using lawsuits to shut down their detractors.

 

Maybe not so smart.  The lawsuits will lead to a process of discovery that will open up the machines to forensic analysis.  There's a pack of IT guys just waiting to open them up.

Unlike 45's 'elite strikeforce team' the folks at Dominion are not stupid. They know their systems helped deliver, as Chris Krebs stated, 'the fairest election ever'.

 

45's people can have all the discovery they want. Just like their court performance up to now (1 and 69), 45 will fail again.

 

I suspect the 'pack of IT guys just waiting to open them up' are working off Commodore 64s in their Mom's basement.

 

IT people who actually know anything know there's nothing to find.

 

45's base never seems to be able to give up the delusion, whether it's "The Storm" or "Durham's Coming" or "Hugo Chavez".

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

there is no point discussing logic and principles with the anti-Trump crowd, they are completely blinded by their hatred, which says more about them than anything ????

 

Trump is a pig, we all know that, but he was the voice of the neglected, and this you can't ignore, even with an impeachment

It's no point discussing facts with the pro-Trump crowd.  They only believe in "alternative facts".  Which says more about them than anything.

 

Amazing that someone who supports Trump calls him a pig.  Voice of the neglected?  That's the laugh of the day.  The neglected would be those of color and minorities in the US.  A group Trump supporters hate.  And a group that helped him lose the election...and the senate.

[ChouDoufu]

5 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Affidavits are sworn statements made under penalty of perjury.  Point to one instance where one of the witnesses has been prosecuted for making a false statement.  Because I guaranty you the Trump haters would love to make an example of a few of them, to shut the rest up.

 

 

affidavits are not statements of fact, they are statements of what one believes to be true.  although the claimants were incorrect in their assumptions, they did not (necessarily) make knowingly false statements if they truly believed what they affidavited.

 

it's not that affidavits must be proven false, it's that the claims made must be proven true.

 

in order to get past the "binders full of affidavits" stage, some evidence must be provided.  that has failed to occur 60:1 so far.  i tried to google the single win of the elite legal strike force to confirm, but google wasn't much help.

 

The Trump campaign initially had a single win, when a Pennsylvania judge ruled on November 12 that first-time voters were supposed to confirm their IDs with county boards of election by November 9, rather than November 12. The decision opened the door to disqualify the ballots of people who didn't verify their IDs in time. But the state Supreme Court later overturned that decision.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-campaign-lawsuits-election-results-2020-11

 

 

[impulse]

2 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Unlike 45's 'elite strikeforce team' the folks at Dominion are not stupid. They know their systems helped deliver, as Chris Krebs stated, 'the fairest election ever'.

 

You know what's funny is that every major media outlet ran investigative stories around the 2018 midterms about how flawed the election machines are.  And that there's no way the vulnerabilities could possibly be fixed before the 2020 elections.  

 

Let's see how Maricopa county goes...

 

[spidermike007]

12 hours ago, VBF said:

A good friend of mine said to me a couple of weeks ago that "America will look back on this period of its history and hang its head in shame"

Bit like that little "Police Action" in Vietnam then? ????

 

Reasonable Americans, yes. I just got a note today from my sister, who is conservative. I thought she had accepted the election results. But this thing that was forwarded to her, by a total nutter ranted on and on about the connection between covid and the banking system (possible) democratic pedophilia (reminiscent of Pizzagate?), child abuse by liberals, democrats being communists, America currently being surrounded by Chinese troops (amassed at the Canadian and Mexican borders, or just offshore on the West coast, I ask?), and more. It was a typical extremist nut job  diatribe. Trump as usual brings out the worst in people, seems to stimulated their unhealthy imaginations, and the promotion of electoral fraud was incredibly destructive, nearly started a civil war (lets see where this goes), and divided people like nobody before him. 

[Walker88]

13 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

You know what's funny is that every major media outlet ran investigative stories around the 2018 midterms about how flawed the election machines are.  And that there's no way the vulnerabilities could possibly be fixed before the 2020 elections.  

 

Let's see how Maricopa county goes...

 

And Durham's coming, too, right? Any second now...all will be revealed. "The Storm".

 

Ha!

 

Yes, let's wait and see. And when this latest delusion dies, there will be another. And another.

 

45 lost. Badly. EVERYTHING points toward that. The repubs just thought their voter suppression methods would work. They failed.

 

Even their 'fraud claims' are silly. Supposedly POTUS was cheated, but all the repubs who won in swing States had no problem being seated.

 

It's hardly a coincidence that all the results the repubs question are in places like Philly, Detroit, Atlanta. What are the demographics of those areas? Gee, one would hope the repubs just aren't racists.

[Jeffr2]

23 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

You know what's funny is that every major media outlet ran investigative stories around the 2018 midterms about how flawed the election machines are.  And that there's no way the vulnerabilities could possibly be fixed before the 2020 elections.  

 

Let's see how Maricopa county goes...

 

Stop with the fake news.  You'll have to provide links to every major media outlet to prove this.  Otherwise....it's a conspiracy theory.

[Walker88]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Stop with the fake news.  You'll have to provide links to every major media outlet to prove this.  Otherwise....it's a conspiracy theory.

 

If you haven't learned by now (I'm sure you have), all the cult has are lies, delusions and conspiracy theories.

 

If they had even an ounce of evidence backing up their lies, they would have introduced it in court. Lucky for them they were smart enough not to bring up the lies in court, under oath, where there would have been legal repercussions.

 

They are all QAnon, at least in spirit. 'Something' is always coming. For the QAnon moonbats, it's "The Storm". For the rest of the cult, it's been everything from "Durham" to "get inside the Dominion machines" or "suitcases of uncounted ballots".

 

All nonsense. It's the screams of the delusional or those who hate democracy.

 

And when all else failed, they resorted to terrorism. Vanilla ISIS, in their pick-ups with the banners of their deity, their guns, and their virulent anger. No difference.

[Phoenix Rising]

13 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

Trump not agreeing with the election results is perfectly legitimate, and he is perfectly entitled to voice his opinion or question the election results. Nothing illegal, and nothing immoral here.

 

if there was a real plan by "army" insiders to stage a coup with the mini-insurrection, how can you blame Trump for it? he didn't know about it and couldn't know about it. Private initiatives being entirely projected to the responsibility of a single leader, just for political reasons, is textbook North Korea MO, so I would worry more about Nancy primary motives and MO more than anything.

"Trump not agreeing with the election results is perfectly legitimate, and he is perfectly entitled to voice his opinion or question the election results. Nothing illegal, and nothing immoral here"

 

Questioning the election result without a shred of evidence and whipping the lemmings into a frenzy just because he can't come to terms with his crushing loss is the very definition of immoral.

 

"if there was a real plan by "army" insiders to stage a coup with the mini-insurrection, how can you blame Trump for it? he didn't know about it and couldn't know about it."

 

And exactly how do you know this to be a fact?

 

"Private initiatives being entirely projected to the responsibility of a single leader, just for political reasons, is textbook North Korea MO, so I would worry more about Nancy primary motives and MO more than anything."

 

Wow, you attempt to be eloquent but end up with nonsensical drivel. Egg on your face moment!????

Edited January 17, 2021 by Phoenix Rising

[onthedarkside]

A post making a false claim regarding the post-election litigation has been removed along with several replies.

 

[johnnybangkok]

8 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

there is no point discussing logic and principles with the anti-Trump crowd, they are completely blinded by their hatred, which says more about them than anything ????

 

Trump is a pig, we all know that, but he was the voice of the neglected, and this you can't ignore, even with an impeachment

He conned the “neglected”. 
BIG difference. 

[billd766]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

 

Admittedly, my numbers were from December polls.  

 

Here's a more recent poll, with links to another recent poll.  Not quite 46%, but pretty close.  If only 55% trust it...  Help me with the math.

 

While 55 percent of people said they continue to trust the electoral process in the United States, 39 percent of people said they don’t trust it, including 65 percent of Republicans, compared to 12 percent of Democrats.

 

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/11/22225531/joe-biden-trump-capitol-inauguration

 

I think there are a lot of countries have a similar problem with politicians and electoral processes nowadays.

 

The UK  is one of them and has been kicking proportional representation around for years. Many people agree with it but Conservatives and Labour don't want it as it will cut into their voting majority and the number of parliament seats that they hold.

 

The Liberals OTOH actually want PR as it will build more vote and seats for them.

 

Generally speaking the UK public accepts the current electoral rules though not necessarily liking them. 

[VBF]

5 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Reasonable Americans, yes. I just got a note today from my sister, who is conservative. I thought she had accepted the election results. But this thing that was forwarded to her, by a total nutter ranted on and on about the connection between covid and the banking system (possible) democratic pedophilia (reminiscent of Pizzagate?), child abuse by liberals, democrats being communists, America currently being surrounded by Chinese troops (amassed at the Canadian and Mexican borders, or just offshore on the West coast, I ask?), and more. It was a typical extremist nut job  diatribe. Trump as usual brings out the worst in people, seems to stimulated their unhealthy imaginations, and the promotion of electoral fraud was incredibly destructive, nearly started a civil war (lets see where this goes), and divided people like nobody before him. 

Yes...I have a friend of over 40 years, here in UK, who, long before I had heard of QAnon, was quoting their (his?) so-called "philosophy" at me. What saddens me, is that this friend with whom I used to work and see as an intelligent individual, seems to have been taken over by these ridiculous conspiracies.

He's also an anti-vaxxer and believes in the anti-5G propaganda! The latter is odd because, like me, he formerly worked in Electronics and IT!

 

Up until Covid, we were able to discuss these theories in a civilised manner, agreeing to differ where appropriate, but now I avoid talking to him for fear of destroying a valued friendship.