Should covid liars and deniers be punished or blocked ?

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

I guess you see 

 

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., American lawyer, also as a dumb person spreading lies, right...

He does spread lies and misinformation.  Read what his sister has to say about it.

 

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/05/08/robert-kennedy-jr-measles-vaccines-226798

RFK Jr. Is Our Brother and Uncle. He’s Tragically Wrong About Vaccines.

 

We love Robert F. Kennedy Jr., but he is part of a misinformation campaign that’s having heartbreaking—and deadly—consequences.

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

 

seriously, give the link, I spreek Nederlands, Francais, English, Deutsch and some pasa Thai

 

but I am the dumb one

https://www.destentor.nl/binnenland/omstreden-arts-75-na-leugens-over-corona-er-was-niet-veel-doordachts-aan~ae6a014e/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

[SS1]

What if the lies come straight from international organisations like the WHO and newspapers spreading their lies further? I'm talking about e.g. WHO claiming that N95 face masks are useless and that regular people should not use them. While the smarter ones were able to do their own research and realise they're lying just to have the only masks that work reserved for healthcare professionals, but hordes of people actually believed their lies resulting in strong opposition against wearing face masks. 

[robblok]

Looks like that this homeopathic doctor is getting in trouble with the organization that governs medical professionals. 

 

They are investigating it as it might be a crime with sanctions for someone in the medical scene to spread such lies. But he has turned a bit admitted that he did not really think when he said this.

Bad thing is the guy got threatened too. A lot of people working in hospitals felt insulted by this giving so much extra effort and then being called liars by this guy.

[Jeffr2]

16 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

You wrote > I think that has been proven. 

Contrary to what you think, It has actually been proven that the effect of lock-downs is neglible.

 

Studies based on actual data are able to discern whether lock-downs had effect when you have sufficient data from different countries that used same and different strategies.  Obviously that's not a simple undertaking, as you need to take many factors into consideration when analyzing the data.  But that's exactly what prof John P.A. Ioannidis of Stanford University and his colleagues did, and as I wrote they concluded from the data that the effect of lock-downs is as good as negligible.  And 'time is on their side' because as more data becomes available, the study can be repeated.

 

I will send you a copy of that study PM.  Real science - based on actual data analysis - is often contra-intuitive to what we think 'should happen',

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/22/business/economy/economy-coronavirus-lockdown-iowa.html

 

Iowa Never Locked Down. Its Economy Is Struggling Anyway.

 

President Trump has blamed Democratic officials’ rules for impeding the recovery. But even where restrictions are few, business is far from normal.

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, 5633572526 said:

You can be put in jail here for telling the truth about a privileged or protected individual on social media. There is no freedom without free speech. The difference between democracy and being governed by the CCP is free speech.

Partly, but IMHO freedom of speech does not mean the freedom to spread proven lies and damage with it the trust in healthcare. I know its a grey area, but the true proven lies should be punished. 

 

We are not talking about stuff like what peter Dennis posted about a study on lockdown. I am talking about a Dr (homeopathic) in the Netherlands who denies that there are Covid patients on ICU and that the doctors get 20.000 euro per covid patients (so to drive up numbers). These are big lies.

 

Anyway because of Benderrodrigues i looked it up again and the medical board is going to take action (because he is a dr a private person would not get in trouble)

[KarenBravo]

Neither.

The only way to combat a bad idea is with a good idea, truth and proof.

[SomchaiCNX]

23 hours ago, robblok said:

Im not talking about a different opinion, i am talking about proven lies. If someone says there are no covid patient on the intensive care and its all a lie and doctors get 20k per patient. These are all proven lies. That is totally different from an other opinion.  I am talking about proven lies.

You will not have enough jails to put all the politicians of each country ???? 

[Jeffr2]

9 minutes ago, KarenBravo said:

Neither.

The only way to combat a bad idea is with a good idea, truth and proof.

Not so sure about that.  Deniers and anti-vaxx'ers typically have some psychological issues.  Interesting reads:

 

https://www.newsweek.com/how-talk-covid-deniers-1525496

 

'How To Talk to COVID-19 Deniers'

 

https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/pandemic-deniers-what-s-with-them

 

Pandemic Deniers: What’s With Them?

[TKDfella]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:22 AM, robblok said:

Just if you spread lies like the one i mentioned. The kind that just can't be denied and do damage to everyone. Trump got a label for fake news. Maybe something like that.

I am surprised you haven't searched for a 'Flat Earther' who also denies Covid. You could serve them a double punishment...actually my point is more subtle and serious, which I hope you can see.

[robblok]

8 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

I am surprised you haven't searched for a 'Flat Earther' who also denies Covid. You could serve them a double punishment...actually my point is more subtle and serious, which I hope you can see.

I can't see your point, but flat earthers are not much of a problem. Denying of Covid and as a result people breaking the rules to help us all is a problem. I am not talking about them refusing a vaccine (they should be allowed to as long as they accept they might not be able to travel so some countries ect).

 

 

[Henryford]

If fake news was punished you would have to punish CNN, BBC, MSNBC etc. People have a RIGHT to their own views.

[millymoopoo]

Of course all promulgators of fake news (bull s**t) misinformation and fact deniers should be exposed.

Failure to do so only leads to ill informed decisions/opinions and paves the way for conspiracy theorists, zealots and flat earthers.!

[Fairynuff]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:12 AM, robblok said:

Im not talking about a different opinion, i am talking about proven lies.

For a certain type of person they’re not lies. Luckily one of those is now somewhere in Florida twiddling his little thumbs????

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Henryford said:

If fake news was punished you would have to punish CNN, BBC, MSNBC etc. People have a RIGHT to their own views.

There is a difference between a own view and a lie. If you say there are no Covid patients on ICU and Dr's are getting 20k per patients. Those are PROVEN lies. That is not an opinion. That is a damaging lie. 

 

If you say that you think Trump was a great president, that is your view (opinion)

If you say that the surface of the sun is not hot, that is a lie (not an opinion)

 

There is a difference between the two. 

 

In general the difference between the two is more gray scaled. But I am talking about absolute lies.

[Tie Dye Samurai]

On 1/20/2021 at 8:12 PM, Gumballl said:

Be smart and use your own intellect to discard false information. Pass this advise on to your peers/friends.

 

Btw, I had covid... and subsequently a viral pneumonia... I survived not only the initial issue, but also the pneumonia. Today I feel great.

 

I am looking forward to getting the vaccine, even though I have the probability of being immune from the virus for the next 4-5 months. Long term, I have know idea what to expect. I know that I will keep wearing a mask and performing good hygiene (i.e. washing hands).

Glad you are feeling better 

[KarenBravo]

13 minutes ago, Henryford said:

If fake news was punished you would have to punish CNN, BBC, MSNBC etc. People have a RIGHT to their own views.

 .......but, not their own facts.

You should have added FOX, Breitbart, OAN and NewsMax.

Edited January 22, 2021 by KarenBravo

[scorecard]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:09 PM, sanuk711 said:

"Should covid liars and deniers be punished or blocked"

 

What sort of punishment did you have in mind for people with a different opinion then you Rob.....

 

I assume roblock means where it's very obvious that the claims of the antivaxers / conspiratory spreaders is simply illogical/impossible/proven by science etc., to be NOT true.

 

My own view is that the public/police/authorities involved should politely demand the anti-vaxers / conspiratory spreaders provide proof and give them enough time to get evidence but the evidence must be from a credible source.

 

The results true or false should be well published and if proven to be false the spreader should be charged where they have caused hurt etc., and they by a court order should be banned to mention/publish their theories again. If they do there should IMHO be serious punishment. All of the above should be published on various news sources.   

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by scorecard

[CharlieH]

7 minutes ago, robblok said:

There is a difference between a own view and a lie. If you say there are no Covid patients on ICU and Dr's are getting 20k per patients. Those are PROVEN lies. That is not an opinion. That is a damaging lie. 

 

If you say that you think Trump was a great president, that is your view (opinion)

If you say that the surface of the sun is not hot, that is a lie (not an opinion)

 

There is a difference between the two. 

 

In general the difference between the two is more gray scaled. But I am talking about absolute lies.

Lies or "untruths", fits better in many circumstances.

 

People sometimes choose to believe in things that are simply not true and spread it as though it is, and they need to be enlightened.

 

But an intentionally false statement is just plain wrong and irresponsible if given by those who should be giving the true facts for others to form their own opinion.

 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Lies or "untruths", fits better in many circumstances.

 

People sometimes choose to believe in things that are simply not true and spread it as though it is, and they need to be enlightened.

 

But an intentionally false statement is just plain wrong and irresponsible if given by those who should be giving the true facts for others to form their own opinion.

 

 

In this case it was a homeopathic doctor  (did not know we had those in the Netherlands) and the following news is that the medical board is going to look if they can punish him. 

 

The guy also came back on his statements partly. Apologizing the Dr's and nurses that are working like crazy. I mean he said there were no covid patients on ICU while the medical staff is stressed like crazy by all the extra work.

 

So this guy probably gets some punishment but as he is really old 75 (originally they were talking 80) so i doubt any punishment will hit him in the pocket.

[CharlieH]

Of course the whole argument is about "who" is saying it and "where",

 

obvious misinformation and downright untruths should be removed wherever possible. If people or organisations are more prominent in society they deserve heavier penalties because of that position and potential influence of others.

[ChrisKC]

If a President of the United  States (Trump) can be banned from Twitter and Facebook for his ridiculous nonsense, why not others with obvious malpractice and the influence it has on those who are blatantly anti authority: Flat Earthers, Conspiracy Theorists, Creationists, Anti-Vaxxers and the like?

 

I am all for the question by the OP that this is a matter for some kind of action - for the better. Not sure about punishment but a line has to be drawn somewhere!

[Jeffr2]

Just now, ChrisKC said:

If a President of the United  States (Trump) can be banned from Twitter and Facebook for his ridiculous nonsense, why not others with obvious malpractice and the influence it has on those who are blatantly anti authority: Flat Earthers, Conspiracy Theorists, Creationists, Anti-Vaxxers and the like?

 

I am all for the question by the OP that this is a matter for some kind of action - for the better. Not sure about punishment but a line has to be drawn somewhere!

Flat Earthers hurt no one.  Anti-Vaxxers do.  Which is tied to conspiracy theorists.  Like Pizza gate which cost the life of one person.

[NanLaew]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:14 AM, robblok said:

The problem is a lot of people are not smart enough or want to believe lies. Just look at the USA.

 

As the source of your OP clearly indicates, fake news and conspiracy theorists are not the exclusive domain of the USA. It just gets more bandwidth on MSM. Now we are all aware that there's a Dutch branch of fake news and conspiracy theorists and, by your measure, some Dutch people that also "are not smart enough", it's not about what you or I can do about it beyond rolling our eyes and clicking through, no?

 

Lending them any more bandwidth even by bringing them up in open debate is self-defeating IMHO.

[ChrisKC]

5 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Flat Earthers hurt no one.  Anti-Vaxxers do.  Which is tied to conspiracy theorists.  Like Pizza gate which cost the life of one person.

I think you will find that Flat Earthers are also in the other categories I mentioned as well.

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

As the source of your OP clearly indicates, fake news and conspiracy theorists are not the exclusive domain of the USA. It just gets more bandwidth on MSM. Now we are all aware that there's a Dutch branch of fake news and conspiracy theorists and, by your measure, some Dutch people that also "are not smart enough", it's not about what you or I can do about it beyond rolling our eyes and clicking through, no?

 

Lending them any more bandwidth even by bringing them up in open debate is self-defeating IMHO.

Dutch people are also not smart enough, i gave the USA as an example as they had a liar in charge of their country and a lot of people believed what he said. Its was just an easy example of showing how people could be fooled by lies.

There is a large group of people who are not smart enough and just look for facts that suit them even if it is lies. This group is everywhere not just US or Netherlands. 

 

Your point is ignore them, problem is they make themselves heard. But i get the point. If there was an easy solution for this it was already mplemented. 

[TKDfella]

27 minutes ago, robblok said:

I can't see your point, but flat earthers are not much of a problem. Denying of Covid and as a result people breaking the rules to help us all is a problem. I am not talking about them refusing a vaccine (they should be allowed to as long as they accept they might not be able to travel so some countries ect).

 

 

Part of my point is that what authority would be judge and how/where would they draw the line on fake news? And another part was this; flat earthers and Covid deniers could be seen as the extremes of fake news but there are a lot in between these, some of which are important and serious to the world. There are considerable numbers of scientists who deny that current climate change is enhanced anthropogenically to produce global warming (3% to 20% depending on how the consensus is determined (Forbes;University of Houston Energy Fellows )). So what are you going to do to those who produce scientific papers to back up their denial? Global Warming is every bit as important as the Covid pandemic, even more so when considered that scientists say it will increase heat related diseases (such as insect borne diseases and/or animal transmitted Ebola).

Freedom of speech is much better because one can see one's opponent and produce arguments to change their view. Punish them and you will drive the to places where you can't see them or how many they are.

[Kurtf]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:12 AM, robblok said:

Im not talking about a different opinion, i am talking about proven lies. If someone says there are no covid patient on the intensive care and its all a lie and doctors get 20k per patient. These are all proven lies. That is totally different from an other opinion.  I am talking about proven lies.

Hell the entire democratic party in America has been lying for years. It's a proven tactic. Even Hitler supported "the big lie". Either Hitler or one of his stooges said, "repeat a big lie often enough and it becomes the truth". There will always be gullible people around to swallow the lie.

[Jeffr2]

Just now, Kurtf said:

Hell the entire democratic party in America has been lying for years. It's a proven tactic. Even Hitler supported "the big lie". Either Hitler or one of his stooges said, "repeat a big lie often enough and it becomes the truth". There will always be gullible people around to swallow the lie.

You mean the entire Republican party.  They've been in power for the past 4 years, with nothing but lies coming from Trump.  And thus, the problems we've experienced.  And that's what he did.  Told the same lie until his followers believed it.  Sadly, they fell for it.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

Part of my point is that what authority would be judge and how/where would they draw the line on fake news? And another part was this; flat earthers and Covid deniers could be seen as the extremes of fake news but there are a lot in between these, some of which are important and serious to the world. There are considerable numbers of scientists who deny that current climate change is enhanced anthropogenically to produce global warming (3% to 20% depending on how the consensus is determined (Forbes;University of Houston Energy Fellows )). So what are you going to do to those who produce scientific papers to back up their denial? Global Warming is every bit as important as the Covid pandemic, even more so when considered that scientists say it will increase heat related diseases (such as insect borne diseases and/or animal transmitted Ebola).

Freedom of speech is much better because one can see one's opponent and produce arguments to change their view. Punish them and you will drive the to places where you can't see them or how many they are.

I was talking about blatant lies, not people with a different opinion (like climate change) or people like PeterDennis who questions lockdown but comes with a paper backing it up. (i disagree but there is basis for his claim)

 

In this case i got rattled by a proven lie, so no people on ICU with covid its ahoax and they doctors get 20k per patient. 

 

But i truely do understand what you mean there is a big grey area. That is why i posed the question. If i had a good awnser id post it too. But I have no real idea because its hard to fight. 

 

But i think we should go after people who influence a lot of others if they state proven lies. We should not limit open debate. But yes there is an area that overlaps.

 

You say don't punish you drive them away.. sure but what about big influencers that all of a sudden get people to disobey all covid rules because its a hoax. You can't always ignore people.