International Criminal Court says it has jurisdiction in Palestinian territories

[Mavideol]

7 hours ago, Morch said:

 

They would if they were in a position to do so.

so you walking  into a bank whereby there is plenty of money,  but not yours, you still it because it was there, so by your standards it's ok to still the money because you were in a position to do it, thus legal/acceptable

[Mavideol]

6 hours ago, Morch said:

 

If the international investigation, and the body conducting it is accepted as impartial, objective and even handed. Or further, if the authority of the body in question is accepted.

 

If the investigation is seen as biased to begin with, that's one good reason to reject it.

by whom ?  Israelis ? sure they will call  biased anything and everything that question their actions

[Mavideol]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

Exactly, so why are many here seeing this as an attack on israel, some even claiming this is anti-semitism, when it clearly is about justice for both sides.

because Israel is the only one not accepting the ICC investigation

[Mavideol]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

That is a false comment, or at the very least an exaggeration. According to your opinion, then, the Palestinian Authority does nothing? Controls nothing? Manages nothings? The Hamas doesn't rule the Gaza Strip either?

last words always coming from Israel, thus always subjected to Israel control

[Tarteso]

Just now in the News;
 

Israel challenges Biden with the demolition of the homes of 61 Palestinians in the West Bank. "pursues a forced displacement of Palestinian communities in order to seize their land."  
 

The Fourth Geneva Convention, the basis of the humanitarian law of war, classifies as a war crime the expulsion of the population from occupied territories.

[VocalNeal]

Just curious. How many Palestinian posters? 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Sujo said:

So you were wrong, just admit it. I never proclaimed to be a legal expert.

 

So you have no doubts there there was political pressure. Sounds like trump, fraud, lots of fraud. Evidence? 

 

All you are giving is an opinion on what you think is happening instead of looking at the facts.

 

Now if they said they would only investigate one side you may have better standing. But on the facts, nope.

 

Still at a lose how I was 'wrong'. 20 claimed years practicing law doesn't merit the label of 'legal expert'?

 

You mentioned Trump, do you think his actions and comments vs. the ICC and staff did not amount to political pressure? On several of the previous articles covering the issue there were reports and various comments regarding attempts (by both sides) to sway decisions this way or that. Israel managed to get several European countries to join proceeding (as observers/friends of the court) and speak on its behalf. Other examples out there, you're welcome to deny them, or pretend they weren't discussed on this forum in the past.

 

The fact is that UN bodies, investigations and other initiatives associated with issues related to the conflict, are not generally favorable to Israel. And that's putting it mildly. You wish to deny this, claim that this time it would be different - go right ahead.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

 

with Trump gone, now your chances of wining anything are all gone down the pipes, Benjamin you better get ready for some roller coaster rides, the international community will no longer close their eyes to your war crimes, illegal settlements and occupation

 

 

people have been saying it for quite sometime but Ben with Don's help playing it as a oax....as the old saying goes " sooner or later truth always prevails/comes out"

 

Netanyahu has been around for a long while. During this time, USA presidents came and go. None of them was actually hostile to Israel, or even applied the sort of pressure hoped for by some members. I kinda doubt Biden will be different.

 

As for the 'international community', mostly it doesn't care all that much anymore. Many countries are reeling from the effects of the pandemic, the Arab world lost interest and the Palestinians remain divided.

 

So sure, he won't have it easy as things were during Trump's Presidency, but there won't be any general reversal of policy, a cold shoulder or worse.

 

I think I read yesterday that the Americans are keeping their Embassy in Jerusalem. Just an example. On the other hand, we'll probably see renewed funding of UNRWA later on. Both, by the way, will play equally well for Netanyahu.

[Morch]

 

@dexterm

 

All this waffle about Israel's control still doesn't amount to the wholesale version of things.

Your narrative doesn't explain the existence of the Palestinian Authority, three of its officials quoted on the OP. It does not explain how the Palestinians were able to set this investigation in motion if they are totally under Israel's control. And it doesn't explains how Hamas can launch rockets at Israel while being under Israel's total control.

 

What you call it is immaterial.

 

Pointing out that Egypt maintains the blockade on the Gaza Strip alongside Israel is not 'nitpicking', but a fact. That you try to ignore or minimize this fact is nothing new. The fact is that if Egypt willed it, there would have been no effective blockade. Egypt been doing this years before Sisi came to power.

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

so you walking  into a bank whereby there is plenty of money,  but not yours, you still it because it was there, so by your standards it's ok to still the money because you were in a position to do it, thus legal/acceptable

 

I'm sure you meant something with this confused analogy, but not sure what.

I do not hold that the Israeli occupation is legal or righteous, all the more so when it comes to the settlement effort.

I will insist that Palestinian attitudes often reflect the sentiment mentioned. That they cannot make it a reality is a different matter.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

by whom ?  Israelis ? sure they will call  biased anything and everything that question their actions

 

Mostly yes, by Israelis. Much of the commentary on this topic relates to parties involved and how they react to the OP. Hamas will reject it as well, but that generally gets less mileage.

 

I think that if one bothers reading such past reports, it's hard to call them unbiased, in that tend to focus on one sides' actions (namely, Israel's) while more open to giving the Palestinians a free pass, or even refrain from investigating actions.

 

More than a few such motions, reports, investigations and resolutions by various UN bodies were criticized and condemned by Western countries, and at least on two occasions the UNSG.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

because Israel is the only one not accepting the ICC investigation

 

I don't think that the Hamas intends to cooperate with the investigation in any open and transparent manner. This can be a bit confusing, as the investigation was set in motion by the Palestinian Authority.

 

Just another perk of having two leaderships at the same time.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Mavideol said:

last words always coming from Israel, thus always subjected to Israel control

 

Again, not sure what you're on about.

There's a Palestinian Authority. Does it control nothing? Don't do anything? Got no budgets? Collects no taxes? Provides no services? Got no security forces? Do all these answer to Israel? And in the Gaza Strip, does the Hamas ask Israel's permission before launching rockets on Israeli towns? Did Israel OK the Palestinian push for the OP's investigation, then?

[Caldera]

The only way for Israel to get rid of their eternal PM "Bibi the Slaughterer" might be to have him finally tried by this international court for his crimes against humanity. Interesting development to say the least!

 

[Scott]

Inflammatory, abusive posts and replies removed.  Continue with the personal commentary and face a suspension.  

 

 

[mlmcleod]

11 hours ago, PatOngo said:

Did the Palestinians EVER steal land from the Israeli's? Did they EVER occupy Israeli land?

Yes, and they fought 3 wars to annihilate the jews!  The only reason they did not occupy Israeli land was because they were humiliatingly thrashed in every war.

 

I suspect that the Israeli's would gladly give back the occupied territories as soon as the rest of the Arab world recognizes their right to exist!  However, the Syrians, Iraqi's and other Arab states would need regime changes before that can happen.

 

If the occupied territories were immediately returned they would still be living in the dark ages for the rest of this century.

[Sujo]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Still at a lose how I was 'wrong'. 20 claimed years practicing law doesn't merit the label of 'legal expert'?

 

You stated ‘self proclaimed’. Wrong.

 

and to answer, no it doesnt make someone a legal expert. It would make them knowledgeable in the particular area of law they work in, but legal expert is a long bow to draw. I dont think there is such a thing as a legal expert, an expert in their field of law yes.

 

The rest of you post was the usual waffle on things not pertaining to this case.

[Sujo]

3 hours ago, mlmcleod said:

Yes, and they fought 3 wars to annihilate the jews!  The only reason they did not occupy Israeli land was because they were humiliatingly thrashed in every war.

 

I suspect that the Israeli's would gladly give back the occupied territories as soon as the rest of the Arab world recognizes their right to exist!  However, the Syrians, Iraqi's and other Arab states would need regime changes before that can happen.

 

If the occupied territories were immediately returned they would still be living in the dark ages for the rest of this century.

What makes you think Israel would give the land back. Has that ever been an option?

 

How the palestinians decide how they live, in houses or caves or n the dark ages is a matter for them to decide. Not everyone wants to live like you want to live.

[candide]

5 hours ago, mlmcleod said:

Yes, and they fought 3 wars to annihilate the jews!  The only reason they did not occupy Israeli land was because they were humiliatingly thrashed in every war.

 

I suspect that the Israeli's would gladly give back the occupied territories as soon as the rest of the Arab world recognizes their right to exist!  However, the Syrians, Iraqi's and other Arab states would need regime changes before that can happen.

 

If the occupied territories were immediately returned they would still be living in the dark ages for the rest of this century.

And you are wrong.

The Israeli government under Ariel Sharon rejected the initiative as a "non-starter"[4] because it required Israel to withdraw to pre-June 1967 borders

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

[Pique Dard]

19 hours ago, rooster59 said:

paving the way for a possible criminal investigation

just talk and another deadlock! nobody will be convicted

[dexterm]

9 hours ago, mlmcleod said:

Yes, and they fought 3 wars to annihilate the jews!  The only reason they did not occupy Israeli land was because they were humiliatingly thrashed in every war.

 

I suspect that the Israeli's would gladly give back the occupied territories as soon as the rest of the Arab world recognizes their right to exist!  However, the Syrians, Iraqi's and other Arab states would need regime changes before that can happen.

 

If the occupied territories were immediately returned they would still be living in the dark ages for the rest of this century.

...codswallop. The PLO recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist in 1993. The Palestinians are still waiting for Israel to reciprocate.

 

"How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?
Netanyahu’s new 'Jewish state' mantra negates the fact that Palestinians recognized Israel more than twenty years ago. They’re still waiting for Israel to recognize Palestine."
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701

 

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Read Arafat's lettter of recognition to Israeli PM Rabin here.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

 

54 years now of Israel's temporary occupation, which has become defacto apartheid in which the Jewish minority  enforces supremacy and privilege over the majority indigenous population based purely on ethnicity and religion. That is one of the war crimes that I hope the ICC will investigate.

[dexterm]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@dexterm

 

All this waffle about Israel's control still doesn't amount to the wholesale version of things.

Your narrative doesn't explain the existence of the Palestinian Authority, three of its officials quoted on the OP. It does not explain how the Palestinians were able to set this investigation in motion if they are totally under Israel's control. And it doesn't explains how Hamas can launch rockets at Israel while being under Israel's total control.

 

What you call it is immaterial.

 

Pointing out that Egypt maintains the blockade on the Gaza Strip alongside Israel is not 'nitpicking', but a fact. That you try to ignore or minimize this fact is nothing new. The fact is that if Egypt willed it, there would have been no effective blockade. Egypt been doing this years before Sisi came to power.

 

>> It does not explain how the Palestinians were able to set this investigation in motion if they are totally under Israel's control. 

..A person mugged and knocked to the ground still has the right to shout "Help, police!"

 

Israel's total control of the illegallly occupied territories even extends to them probably refusing to allow ICC investigators entry to talk to Palestinians. Trump did it. Wouldn't be surprised if his protege Netanyahu does so too.

"I'm not being an oppressive control freak, but I won't allow you to investigate my oppression"...oh the irony.

 

It may take a while for war criminals to be named and arrest warrants issued, but in the meantime much of Israel's dirty linen will be aired , which is a positive outcome.

Edited February 7, 2021 by dexterm

[Morch]

10 hours ago, Caldera said:

The only way for Israel to get rid of their eternal PM "Bibi the Slaughterer" might be to have him finally tried by this international court for his crimes against humanity. Interesting development to say the least!

 

 

Netanyahu, for all his faults, is not quite a 'slaughterer' compared with previous Israeli Prime Ministers, and certainly, other regional leaders. One contributing factor to him remaining in power is the Palestinians' (well, mostly Hamas's) stance and actions. As Israel is not a member of the ICC, the chances of Netanyahu being prosecuted by it are slim.

 

Interesting development how? It was the expected decision, and it's not the first UN/international investigation of the sort.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, mlmcleod said:

Yes, and they fought 3 wars to annihilate the jews!  The only reason they did not occupy Israeli land was because they were humiliatingly thrashed in every war.

 

I suspect that the Israeli's would gladly give back the occupied territories as soon as the rest of the Arab world recognizes their right to exist!  However, the Syrians, Iraqi's and other Arab states would need regime changes before that can happen.

 

If the occupied territories were immediately returned they would still be living in the dark ages for the rest of this century.

 

The Palestinians actively partook only in the first such effort. But it is fair to say that if they could, they would.

 

There is no such willingness to return Palestinian land such as you describe. Certainly not by right-wing governments. On the contrary, much easier for Israel to sign agreements with other neighbors, where the territorial issues are not mixed with religious sentiment.

 

As for the comment regarding the occupied territories and the dark ages, depends how you mean. In terms of infrastructure, standard of living, facilities and all that, that's totally off mark. If referring to the Palestinians potentially reverting to a lawless, clan based society, there's that.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Sujo said:

You stated ‘self proclaimed’. Wrong.

 

and to answer, no it doesnt make someone a legal expert. It would make them knowledgeable in the particular area of law they work in, but legal expert is a long bow to draw. I dont think there is such a thing as a legal expert, an expert in their field of law yes.

 

The rest of you post was the usual waffle on things not pertaining to this case.

 

The sort of the convulsed "explanation" expected. Well, if your claimed experience is irrelevant or not very significant to the matter at hand, why bring it up at all?

 

The rest of my post was a direct comment to your questions. Quite obviously, you're unable to address it. Not a first.

[Pattaya Spotter]

U.S. has 'serious concerns' about International Criminal Court decision on Israel war crimes probe

"We have serious concerns about the ICC's attempts to exercise its jurisdiction over Israeli personnel," said State Department spokesman Ned Price "We do not believe the Palestinians qualify as a sovereign state, and therefore are not qualified to obtain membership as a state or participate as a state in international organizations, entities, or conferences including the ICC,"  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1256900

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Sujo said:

What makes you think Israel would give the land back. Has that ever been an option?

 

How the palestinians decide how they live, in houses or caves or n the dark ages is a matter for them to decide. Not everyone wants to live like you want to live.

 

It was discussed and offered on several occasions in the past. Whether something could have come out of it can be debated, but it's not a totally alien concept or line of thinking. It does get harder to pull off or to be agreed upon the longer things drag out. So as to whether it was an option, yes. Whether it will be or will it happen? Questionable.

 

As for your second comment, you've made the same argument in the past. A better acquaintance with the Palestinians would inform you that they are interested in pretty much all the perks the modern world got to offer.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, candide said:

And you are wrong.

The Israeli government under Ariel Sharon rejected the initiative as a "non-starter"[4] because it required Israel to withdraw to pre-June 1967 borders

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

And you are cherry--picking. The very same link mentions other Israeli Prime Minister being more open to this.

 

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, Pique Dard said:

just talk and another deadlock! nobody will be convicted

 

An investigation doesn't automatically imply anyone will be convicted, or even charged.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

...codswallop. The PLO recognized the right of the state of Israel to exist in 1993. The Palestinians are still waiting for Israel to reciprocate.

 

"How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?
Netanyahu’s new 'Jewish state' mantra negates the fact that Palestinians recognized Israel more than twenty years ago. They’re still waiting for Israel to recognize Palestine."
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701

 

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Read Arafat's lettter of recognition to Israeli PM Rabin here.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

 

54 years now of Israel's temporary occupation, which has become defacto apartheid in which the Jewish minority  enforces supremacy and privilege over the majority indigenous population based purely on ethnicity and religion. That is one of the war crimes that I hope the ICC will investigate.

 

You keep bringing the recognition letter thing, ignoring facts regarding how it was not actually fully approved. Arafat himself said contradictory things later on, as did other Palestinian leaders. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other factions do not hold with this recognition at all - yet you somehow remain oblivious to all of this.

 

As to what you hope for, I think it's pretty clear by now.