Dual pricing in hospitals now ?

[hansnl]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:19 AM, scammed said:

in a state subsidized hospital, its perfectly OK

to subsidize tax payers, i.e not you,

but what isnt OK is to change price after you accepted the terms,

speaking of which, do you have it written down somewhere the stated cost prior to the hustle ?

as per usual in thailand, whether

its a taxi fare or any other service/product,

always make an agreement beforehand

before you hand over money, and in case like a hospital, where you will get the service before you pay, have it written

Tax payers should be treated fairly in state hospitals?

That is good, because although I am not Thai, I pay tax in Thailand, quite a lot actually.

[teacherclaire]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:22 AM, bwpage3 said:

Just remember, Thailand loves you.

 

Or is it Thailand loves your money?

 

Is that a rhetorical question? 

 

It's not okay to charge 100 % more for foreigners, then it's not just the room, all will be more expensive.

 

      Try a private hospital and you might pay less in the end. 

 

   I'd do all that the boss of the hospital is aware of such practice. 

 

        I paid the normal price when I had to stay there after an accident, room was okay with an extra bed for a relative.

 

     

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by teacherclaire

[Sheryl]

43 minutes ago, teacherclaire said:

 

It's not okay to charge 100 % more for foreigners, then it's not just the room, all will be more expensive.

 

  

 

 

Whether or not it is "OK" is a subjective opinion.

 

As a matter of law,  the Government has specifically instructed all government health facilities to charge foreigners more for treatment. Issued in 2019 "Announcement of the Ministry of Public Health on Public Health Service Rates Of service units under the Ministry of Public Health, 2019 " and published in the Government Gazette.

 

This guidance referred to treatment only and room cost was nto addressed but as far as I know, hospitals have always been free to charge whatever they think the market will bear for "special" (i.e. private/semi private) rooms.

 

in practice most hospitals don't bother with multi tier pricing unless they see a treat a significant  number of foreigners, but they can if they so choose.

 

Suan Doc (Sripat) in Chiang Mai is charging 4500 a night room rate to foreigners for several years now.

 

That said, Suan Doc is in a major urban center and inundated with farang clients (frankly they'd be glad if the cost deterred some). For a state hospital in an upcountry province with few expats, this hospital is unusual both in having developed a dual price for rooms and also for the amount. Coupled with the described ghastly attempts at "foreign food"  they for some reason are trying to tap the  farang market. (And haven't a clue how to do it).

 

The real problems that I see with the OP's story is

 

1) Not correctly quoted room rate at admission - I believe a genuine mistake, this is not a hospital  that sees many foreigners  admitted and the staff who originally quoted price to him were likely unaware of a separate price tier.

 

2) Doctor's reported refusal to allow the treatment to be given as an outpatient. No excuse for that, that I can see.

[mike787]

This is normal here.  You just figured this out now?  Really?  Welcome to LOS, enjoy your stay.

[BobinBKK]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:57 AM, sandyf said:

Back in 2003 I had an accident and had broken ribs. I was taken into Pattaya Memorial and they took my passport until they had been paid. Although I had insurance, they weren't interested, had to be cash. Never been to a private hospital since.

I would have reported the passport stolen. You simply gave to them to make a copy for identification purposes and they refused to give it back to you.

 

 

[Paul DS]

21 hours ago, Paul DS said:

Actually sorry but you are wrong.  Anyone requesting treatment in a NHS facility within the UK are charged the private treatment price, its the same for UK residents or Non UK etc. The difference you get with private treatment is that there is generally little or no waiting list.

 

The 150% price is the NHS charging schedule for overseas visitiors etc.

 

[brewsterbudgen]

On 2/10/2021 at 1:57 PM, EricTh said:

 

Not all workers pay income tax if their salaries are lower than taxable income. What is this social security?

 

Retirees also pay sales tax and are taxed on their Fixed Deposits with the bank.

 

In most countries, those who are working should pay more than retirees.

 

For those foreigners who earn 50,000-100,000 baht per month, it doesn't make sense for them to pay lower.

 

 

"What is this social security?"   Information here:

 

https://thailawonline.com/fr/thai-laws/faq/171-social-security.html

[connda]

19 hours ago, theoldgit said:

If you’re legally resident in the UK either as a British Citizen or someone with Indefinite Leave to Remain, in prison or Immigration Detention

Well, now I know how to get health coverage.  Go to the UK and commit a crime then turn myself in to be imprisoned.  <laughs>

[connda]

18 hours ago, Joinaman said:

 And how exactly can we ex pats skip without paying ?

they have our passport numbers, our addresses, and most of the time, they almost frogmarch you to the cashiers desk 

how many ex pats actually skip without paying ? 
tourists maybe .

Tourists?  Yeah, hop on the plane and skip the bill.  Long stay expats with a wife or assets.  We're here for a reason.  Maybe 1 or 2% decide to skip a bill but they probably were planning on leaving anyway.  Those of us with roots - we stay and we pay.  But - many in the Thai government, being racist and xenophobic to boot, simply have to bad-mouth us all.  When they refer to us as deadbeats they should provide very, very specific data to back up their claims.  Who?  (name and shame), how many broken down by category of visa, circumstances.   I've yet to see that.  Just mealy-mouthed assertions that all foreigners can't be trusted and they all will skip on their bill if not watched like fugitives and scum.  Which is bunk.

[Joinaman]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

Not a question of situation. When procedures have been necessary it has all been discussed with the doctor and an appointment arranged. You then pay the cashier before the procedure is carried out. 

If you are not happy with the price the hospital intends to charge you can go elsewhere.

never paid in advance

all been discussed with doctor, price quoted from cashier, but payment made at end of treatments

In my case, they changed the price by 100% during treatments, 

if this inflated price was quoted prior to getting treatments, as you say, i would have gone elsewhere, which is what i did after the first night .

The treatments i am now having in the private hospital, is again, paid for after each session is completed, not before , although i have the fixed prices in writing this time 

[Joinaman]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

Even in my honest country i get a quote on paper before anything. I find this a bit oversight on your side. If price is that important to you then make sure you get it on paper. 

i guess your a very rich person who does not care about money and allows other people to rip you off while thinking its ok ?

I guess your happy paying 5 star prices, to stay in 1 star rooms, with little or no service ?

Please read the post again. Its about price gouging, about getting ripped off, about dual pricing, and the shoddy service that is provided for this money .

 

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, Joinaman said:

8 hours ago, robblok said:

Even in my honest country i get a quote on paper before anything. I find this a bit oversight on your side. If price is that important to you then make sure you get it on paper. 

i guess your a very rich person who does not care about money and allows other people to rip you off while thinking its ok ?

I guess your happy paying 5 star prices, to stay in 1 star rooms, with little or no service ?

Please read the post again. Its about price gouging, about getting ripped off, about dual pricing, and the shoddy service that is provided for this money .

 

Huh - hyperbolae much???....  what has wealth got to do with checking the costs ?

 

He’s said he gets a quote before going ahead - perfectly normal behaviour.

 

This is exactly what I did recently when going ahead with treatment (covered by insurance), but I still got a quote. 

 

Op (Joinaman), you clearly suffered poor service and price gouging which would have been avoidable if you’d obtained a written quote - thats all.  

This lesson can be picked up by all of us. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by richard_smith237

[DavisH]

On 2/10/2021 at 7:09 PM, connda said:

I would bet you that if I was married to a UK citizen and was living in the UK, I'd be covered by the NHS. 
Here? Married to a Thai citizen and living in Thailand.  Oh, hell, that right.  I'm just a "temporary visitor" after 13 years of marriage and will always be nothing but a "temporary visitor".
 
If I ever have a health problem that becomes so expensive that the now three tiered pricing scheme (of which I, as a married farang, will pay the maximum) pulls the capital reserves I have set aside for my wife below a threshold I've set that will allow my wife to live comfortably for the rest of her life - then I'll simply "check out".  With sound mind, cold, and calculated.
If they want to charge me three times what a Myanmar worker would pay, or two times what a foreigner with a work permit would pay - even after supporting a Thai family for well over a decade (don't tell me I don't contribute to the Thai tax base - that's BS).  Screw it.  I'll just end it so my wife and family have the funds to continue to live on. 
It's a sad state of affairs that there isn't a more equitable allocation of healthcare globally, but it is what it is - and life ain't fair.  Get over it.  I have.
Before 2019 I was relying on having affordable care through the Thai government hospital system. Then they changed the rules. Pretty much tripling the prices for a guy like me married to a Thai woman.  So, not anymore. I've planned for the contingency.  Got a living will"  No ICU.  DNR.  If my funds drop below my threshold - send me home - I'll take care of the rest.  I've lived a full enough live.  I need to make sure my wife can continue to live a comfortable life until she dies.  It's my responsibility.  The Thai government can't take care of their elderly.  I'm not going to allow my wife to fall into poverty due to me eventually getting sick prior to dying. I won't let it happen. 
I can see it now.  Cause of death: economic responsibility for a Thai wife. Yeah, that would sum it up. 

Even a foreigner with a WP will still pay the foreigner rate. Any tax payer here should get the same rate as anyone else. That makes sense, but not a lot makes sense here. Lucky I married a civil servant!

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, DavisH said:

On 2/10/2021 at 3:09 PM, connda said:

I would bet you that if I was married to a UK citizen and was living in the UK, I'd be covered by the NHS. 
Here? Married to a Thai citizen and living in Thailand.  Oh, hell, that right.  I'm just a "temporary visitor" after 13 years of marriage and will always be nothing but a "temporary visitor".
 
 

Even a foreigner with a WP will still pay the foreigner rate. Any tax payer here should get the same rate as anyone else. That makes sense, but not a lot makes sense here. Lucky I married a civil servant!

 

In response to connda: If my Thai Wife and I move to the UK my Wife has to pay an 'Immigration Health surcharge’ as part of the Marriage Visa applicant (£1872 if applying from outside the UK / £1560 if applying from within the UK) - which covers the 2 year 9 month Visa period... So, the NHS is paid for !

If my Wife is sick while visiting the uk on her existing visit visa - she will receive treatment, but may be expected to pay (we have insurance for this). 

 

I agree with DavisH - IF someone is working (work permit) and is paying tax in Thailand there is no reason why they should not receive the same price as Thai’s at government facilities. 

As such the double charge somewhat ’stinks’ - it also sends a message to the rest of Thai businesses that foreigners are open season and that cheating them and ripping them off is tolerated. 

 

 

[Gulfsailor]

26 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

In response to connda: If my Thai Wife and I move to the UK my Wife has to pay an 'Immigration Health surcharge’ as part of the Marriage Visa applicant (£1872 if applying from outside the UK / £1560 if applying from within the UK) - which covers the 2 year 9 month Visa period... So, the NHS is paid for !

If my Wife is sick while visiting the uk on her existing visit visa - she will receive treatment, but may be expected to pay (we have insurance for this). 

 

I agree with DavisH - IF someone is working (work permit) and is paying tax in Thailand there is no reason why they should not receive the same price as Thai’s at government facilities. 

As such the double charge somewhat ’stinks’ - it also sends a message to the rest of Thai businesses that foreigners are open season and that cheating them and ripping them off is tolerated. 

 

 

With some rare exceptions, foreigners working in Thailand with a workpermit are enrolled in social security. Public hospital use is then free. (Not including luxury extras like a private room). Many Thais are not formally employed and enrolled in social security and then have to pay 30 baht per visit (waived at some hospitals). 
In effect I pay less when visiting the local hospital than my Thai daughter. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Gulfsailor

[robblok]

7 hours ago, Joinaman said:

i guess your a very rich person who does not care about money and allows other people to rip you off while thinking its ok ?

I guess your happy paying 5 star prices, to stay in 1 star rooms, with little or no service ?

Please read the post again. Its about price gouging, about getting ripped off, about dual pricing, and the shoddy service that is provided for this money .

 

Im not super rich, but I got insurance. However that is not the point. 

 

If price is an concern and you want to make sure get it on paper. That is how it works with all things get quotes on paper so you have proof. Then they will have a harder time changing it later. So IMHO its your mistake not getting it on paper. That would have prevented the problems. 

 

If i want construction in my home done i ask for a written quote, same when I went for an sinus operation I got the price quote on paper and send it to my insurer. Just to check if they would pay for it and if the price was not too high.  Its just standard procedure for me to get things in writing for important things. Saves a lot of trouble afterwards.

 

If my car needs a service I ask for a quote and I get one and they call me if for some reason its different and I agree with it. (they can always encounter stuff that was not in a quote)

 

Anyway its just an way of doing business because verbal contracts are hard to enforce. (because of the proof) Also when they have to write it down more thought goes in the process so they are more inclined to give a good quote or get problems later. Not so much with verbal things as they can always say but i forgot this or you misunderstood that. 

[robblok]

7 hours ago, Joinaman said:

never paid in advance

all been discussed with doctor, price quoted from cashier, but payment made at end of treatments

In my case, they changed the price by 100% during treatments, 

if this inflated price was quoted prior to getting treatments, as you say, i would have gone elsewhere, which is what i did after the first night .

The treatments i am now having in the private hospital, is again, paid for after each session is completed, not before , although i have the fixed prices in writing this time 

so now you do the thing I said was the smart thing to do get the price in writing. That was what i said was what you did wrong. Had nothing to do with money just with common sense when dealing with stuff like this.

 

So by your own admittance you understand that it was not smart to not get a price written down before. Hospital was wrong but so were you.

[brianthainess]

Yesterday my Thai wife was charged b200 at a small local public hospital, for a 5min med cert for driving license, at first they wanted b300 she got them down to b200 and she is a health volunteer! $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, Speedhump said:

Thanks. You still didn't say precisely that you saw exactly the same price being offered to farang and Thai for exactly the same product/service, but I'm not going to labour the point 

You are quite right, nobody showed me their invoices.

When I started getting my hypertension tablets at the hospital the price was about two thirds that of Fascino with discount card. If the hospital is charging double, why no complaints about Fascino, or any other pharmacy?

Of course you  are perfectly free to  believe what you want.

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, Joinaman said:

never paid in advance

all been discussed with doctor, price quoted from cashier, but payment made at end of treatments

In my case, they changed the price by 100% during treatments, 

if this inflated price was quoted prior to getting treatments, as you say, i would have gone elsewhere, which is what i did after the first night .

The treatments i am now having in the private hospital, is again, paid for after each session is completed, not before , although i have the fixed prices in writing this time 

I did say all the elective procedures were at government hospitals.

[Cake Monster]

On 2/10/2021 at 7:45 AM, Joinaman said:

Hi there

had to go to hospital for some minor treatment that involved one or two nights stay

booked a private room in the state hospital, price 1,600 but a night 

turned up yesterday morning, got paperwork sorted and got a room organised 

while waiting for transport to room, lady tells me the price is now 2,000 baht because “ I’m a farang”

not happy and told her so, but not going to argue over it

gets settled into room, has first drip done, blood test and x ray , then wait for doctor to visit

when he comes , many hours later, he asks if I. Ok paying for room, and can I afford it, so I asked which price am I paying, 1,600, or 2, 000

to which he replied no, farang price is 3,200 now, and I want you to stay 5 nights now

i pointed out the room is old and dated, in an old section of the hospital, there is no soap or towels to wash my hands after toilet, no water to drink, you insist i have friend/ relative to help, and then want them to sleep on a 4 foot wooden settee , and you now want to double the price because I’m a farang ?

The treatment needed is only a hook up to a antibiotic drip for 10 minutes, twice a day, but he refused to allow me treatment without staying in the room 

even the nurse admitted it was bad, but the big boss had told them to double the price for farangs

Anyone else have this happens to them 

can’t fault the nurses, but the system stinks to high heaven 

 

I have been using a State Hospital now for many years, and they have a policy of a 50% markup for all Treatments to Farangs.

You are being really ripped off, specially as your treatment is considered minor.

I had to have a similar  course of Antibiotics, and the Hospital also wanted me to stay for 2 Days.

I argued that I would be taking a much need bed from somebody who was more seriously Ill, and asked them to just prescribe the Antibiotics, and I would use a local Clinic for the IV application of them.

I must have had a decent Doctor, as he Okayed this, and I was lucky he did, as the Antibiotics took nearly 3 Weeks to have any effect.

[Speedhump]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You are quite right, nobody showed me their invoices.

When I started getting my hypertension tablets at the hospital the price was about two thirds that of Fascino with discount card. If the hospital is charging double, why no complaints about Fascino, or any other pharmacy?

Of course you  are perfectly free to  believe what you want.

As far as I have ever witnessed, Fascino run everything past their IR scanner at the till and the prices show on the till's screen. so I don't understand how that could give different prices for farang and Thai. But I'm not a retail expert. 

[Joinaman]

10 hours ago, robblok said:

so now you do the thing I said was the smart thing to do get the price in writing. That was what i said was what you did wrong. Had nothing to do with money just with common sense when dealing with stuff like this.

 

So by your own admittance you understand that it was not smart to not get a price written down before. Hospital was wrong but so were you.

Thanks

so if I get a quote for the room rate, per night, does it include all the facilities.

things like towels, soap, decent bed and pillows, put you up beds for your “helper”, menus for the food, cleaning arrangements, any other things like water, tea or coffee, and then show the quality and size of the room.?

or does it just state how much a. Night they will charge you 

So they can give you a quote, which you find acceptable, then when you are wheeled into your room, you find there are no facilities, no soap, no towels, just a wooden seat and a hard hospital bed with a vanilla cover block for a pillow, cold or if lucky, lukewarm food,  and everything else in poor condition

you have already agreed , as per quote, to pay the nightly fee, so surely, by your reasoning, things like this are acceptable, “because you got a quote on the night rate”

how many people entering hospital, have either the time, or the possibility of getting a detailed quote, then travelling half way round the hospital to view the room , before signing  to agree to the quote ?

 

[robblok]

16 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

Thanks

so if I get a quote for the room rate, per night, does it include all the facilities.

things like towels, soap, decent bed and pillows, put you up beds for your “helper”, menus for the food, cleaning arrangements, any other things like water, tea or coffee, and then show the quality and size of the room.?

or does it just state how much a. Night they will charge you 

So they can give you a quote, which you find acceptable, then when you are wheeled into your room, you find there are no facilities, no soap, no towels, just a wooden seat and a hard hospital bed with a vanilla cover block for a pillow, cold or if lucky, lukewarm food,  and everything else in poor condition

you have already agreed , as per quote, to pay the nightly fee, so surely, by your reasoning, things like this are acceptable, “because you got a quote on the night rate”

how many people entering hospital, have either the time, or the possibility of getting a detailed quote, then travelling half way round the hospital to view the room , before signing  to agree to the quote ?

 

Your trying to make up stuff to cover up your own incompetence. Stop digging that hole. You should just have gotten the quote on paper and you were done. Now you can make all kind of fictional scenarios up that suit your narrative.

 

By your own admission you now have a quote on paper something you did not do with your first so that in itself shows you were aware you were to blame too.

 

As for your purely fictional scenario, is it that hard to look at a room and see what they are offering ? I don't expect much in government hospitals in private hospitals i expect more. But usually they have more then one kind of room. So looking is always the best way to ensure its all well.

[Joinaman]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Your trying to make up stuff to cover up your own incompetence. Stop digging that hole. You should just have gotten the quote on paper and you were done. Now you can make all kind of fictional scenarios up that suit your narrative.

 

By your own admission you now have a quote on paper something you did not do with your first so that in itself shows you were aware you were to blame too.

 

As for your purely fictional scenario, is it that hard to look at a room and see what they are offering ? I don't expect much in government hospitals in private hospitals i expect more. But usually they have more then one kind of room. So looking is always the best way to ensure its all well.

The quote i got was for the treatment, not a room rate

ahh, so you take time to run around inspecting the rooms, while waiting for treatment , that’s good

me, I’m too busy trying to find out why I’m sick and spend my time trying to sort that out, rather than go inspecting rooms

I’m curious which hospital (state) will provide you with a helper to escort you around the various room for inspection, which in itself, could take over an hour to do so?

you don’t expect much, maybe I’m being too fussy expecting extravagant things like, soap, towels, and all the basic things for 3,200 a night

[moontang]

I have been pricing the c19 tests for my trip to America.  Price fixing, price gouging, and dual pricing are all evident.  We have all seen them raise prices, when business slows, the reality is worse, you really gotta watch out for ripoff now more than ever. 

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

The quote i got was for the treatment, not a room rate

ahh, so you take time to run around inspecting the rooms, while waiting for treatment , that’s good

me, I’m too busy trying to find out why I’m sick and spend my time trying to sort that out, rather than go inspecting rooms

I’m curious which hospital (state) will provide you with a helper to escort you around the various room for inspection, which in itself, could take over an hour to do so?

you don’t expect much, maybe I’m being too fussy expecting extravagant things like, soap, towels, and all the basic things for 3,200 a night

But you got hours to complain about it online. While a simple inspection and room quote on paper would have helped you. 

 

Kinda like the hare and the turtle. You do know that story don't you.

 

Anyway I would expect the basics. But your shifting way off your original story where you were angry about a change in room rate not what was in the room. 

 

Anyway if you can't use common sense like getting a quote and things in writing then your a lost cause and ill stop posting.

[Joinaman]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

But you got hours to complain about it online. While a simple inspection and room quote on paper would have helped you. 

 

Kinda like the hare and the turtle. You do know that story don't you.

 

Anyway I would expect the basics. But your shifting way off your original story where you were angry about a change in room rate not what was in the room. 

 

Anyway if you can't use common sense like getting a quote and things in writing then your a lost cause and ill stop posting.

ahh ok

care to tell me which hospitals would be kind enough to provide you with a Porter and motorised cart and escort you around the hospital looking at rooms, before you agree to pay any money ?

if you read my original post, you will also read that I was talking about the lack of basic facilities in the room, as well as the changing room rate

 The quote I agree on, but unless detailed, means very little on what you will get for the room rate 

 

[Sheryl]

Please keep it civil.

 

It is not usual to get a written quote for hospital care. And I am further not sure that even a written room rate (since there is no way a hospital can give a written rate for the entire treatment as costs will vary according to the patient's condition) would really have helped. The cashier obviously did nto know there was a different rate for foreigners and would have given an incorrect rate and it would have been discovered and he would have still been told the rate was higher.

[sandyf]

On 2/12/2021 at 11:34 AM, Speedhump said:

As far as I have ever witnessed, Fascino run everything past their IR scanner at the till and the prices show on the till's screen. so I don't understand how that could give different prices for farang and Thai. But I'm not a retail expert. 

Looks like you missed the point, I never suggested Fascino were dual pricing.

If Fascino were charging 100 baht and the hospital prices are about 70% of Fascino, the hospital price would be 70 baht. If however as people claim the hospital charges double for falang then the real price would be 35 baht.

So the question was, are Fascino ripping people off, meaning everyone, or not?