St. Kitts and Nevis Citizenship

[wtboatr]

I was wondering if any Thai Visa forum members have a passport from the nation of St. Kitts and Nevis. If so, can you share your experiences with obtaining tourist visas, marriage visas, or retirement visas?

 

For all other forum members, can you share any thoughts on staying in the Kingdom of Thailand with a passport from St. Kitts and Nevis.

 

Why do I ask?  I'm looking into obtaining a citizenship from St. Kitts so I can renounce my US citizenship one day.  My plan is to reside in Thailand under the St. Kitts passport for a few years until I feel confident that I can remain in the country indefinitely.  When the time is right, I will walk in the US Embassy, renounce my US citizenship, and surrender my passport.

 

Thailand requires a visa for St. Kitts citizens to visit Thailand.  The USA also requires a visa for St. Kitts citizens to visit the USA. My worry is that if i give up my US citizenship and a visa is not granted to live in either the USA or Thailand, I'll have to call St. Kitts and Nevis my home until such time as I am granted a visa to live in Thailand.

 

I plan to pursue Thai citizenship since I'm married to a Thai national.  If I obtain Thai citizenship, I will feel a lot more comfortable giving up my US citizenship.  I plan to move to Thailand permanently with my wife in a couple years.  Once I make the move, I will have no need or desire to return to the US.

 

Thank you in advance for your comments.  They are sincerely appreciated.  Renouncing my US citizenship is a big decision.  I need to fully understand the ramifications before I take the leap.

[BritTim]

Unless you plan to work for a few years in Thailand, paying taxes, you will not be able to get Thai citizenship.

 

Since you will are married to a Thai national (and assuming that remains true for the rest of your life) you will not need Thai nationality to live in Thailand.

 

As you say, renouncing US citizenship is a big move.

[wtboatr]

8 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Unless you plan to work for a few years in Thailand, paying taxes, you will not be able to get Thai citizenship.

 

I'm not interested in working as an employee.  What if I start a business and employ myself and other Thais, all of whom pay taxes?  Will I be able to apply for Thai citizenship after a few years?

 

My assumption is that if I'm staying in Thailand on a marriage visa, that will give me the right to own and operate a business.  Is this correct?

 

Thank you.

[BritTim]

7 minutes ago, wtboatr said:

I'm not interested in working as an employee.  What if I start a business and employ myself and other Thais, all of whom pay taxes?  Will I be able to apply for Thai citizenship after a few years?

 

My assumption is that if I'm staying in Thailand on a marriage visa, that will give me the right to own and operate a business.  Is this correct?

 

Thank you.

 

I believe as a US citizen, you can start a sole proprietorship under the Treaty of Amity. This would, I think, provide a basis for working and paying taxes. Hopefully, there are others here who know more about the Treaty of Amity than I do, and can advise.

 

A regular Thai limited company is trickier to establish. For instance, it usually must be, on paper, majority Thai owned. There are a number of guides available on the process.

 

Once you think you know the basic approach you want to pursue, you need to use a lawyer to help you set things up. That is not expensive. However, if you have a regular Thai company with employees, the running costs will be substantial.

[galt1967]

The easiest solution, I think, is purchasing a 20-year Thai Elite Visa AFTER getting your St Kits PP.

 

Can be done at ANY age and would provide (effectively) a 'resident's permit' to live in Thailand WITHOUT a lot of hassles.

 

You can stay/leave Thailand at-will with it.

[DrDave]

There's something related that I've wondered about since there are several Caribbean nations that have citizenship-for-investment programs. If a US citizen gains citizenship in another country and subsequently renounces US citizenship, how difficult would it be to obtain a visa to return to the US as a visitor?  Knowing that the granting of US visas is extremely subjective, and no reason is typically given for denial, I wonder if renouncing citizenship raises a red flag making it difficult to obtain a visa in the future.

[ukrules]

29 minutes ago, DrDave said:

There's something related that I've wondered about since there are several Caribbean nations that have citizenship-for-investment programs. If a US citizen gains citizenship in another country and subsequently renounces US citizenship, how difficult would it be to obtain a visa to return to the US as a visitor?  Knowing that the granting of US visas is extremely subjective, and no reason is typically given for denial, I wonder if renouncing citizenship raises a red flag making it difficult to obtain a visa in the future.

 

Roger Ver did this, they refused him an entry visa. Google his name.

 

Once you're out, then you ain't getting back in, possibly ever.

 

[wtboatr]

2 hours ago, galt1967 said:

The easiest solution, I think, is purchasing a 20-year Thai Elite Visa AFTER getting your St Kits PP.

 

Can be done at ANY age and would provide (effectively) a 'resident's permit' to live in Thailand WITHOUT a lot of hassles.

 

You can stay/leave Thailand at-will with it.

 

I like the idea of obtaining the Elite Visa as an effective 'resident's permit'.  That will give me easy access into Thailand once I renounce my citizenship.  I would like to do some travel in the Asian region without fear that I may not be allowed into Thailand if I were to travel outside the borders of the Kingdom.

 

If I renounce my US citizenship while I possess an Elite Visa, will this invalidate my Elite Visa?  I assume the Elite Visa is somehow tied to my US passport.  Would I be better off applying for the Elite Visa under my St. Kitts Passport once I am in possession of it?

 

I see there is a 20 year Elite Visa for 1 Million Baht.  That's the visa I would purchase.  However, if it were to become null and void upon my renouncement, I would not go that route.

 

Thank you all for your comments.  It helps me to clarify my strategy to live in Thailand full time once this pandemic is over, hopefully within the next 12 months.

[VocalNeal]

Nearest embassy is Taiwan. When you need consular services, like a new passport.

[ubonjoe]

I am not even sure where a citizen of the Federation of Saint Christopher (that St. Kitts and Nevis is officially known as) would apply for a Thai visa.

It is not listed on the certificate of entry application site that has info for where the application would be sent to.

See: https://coethailand.mfa.go.th/ 

I would assume the Thai embassy in Ottawa would be it since that is where most caribbean countries apply at.

[treetops]

3 hours ago, wtboatr said:

I like the idea of obtaining the Elite Visa as an effective 'resident's permit'.  That will give me easy access into Thailand once I renounce my citizenship.  I would like to do some travel in the Asian region without fear that I may not be allowed into Thailand if I were to travel outside the borders of the Kingdom.

 

Elite visa holders outside Thailand were not allowed to re-enter for a while last year due to Covid so there is no guarantee that what you say will be true.

[Issanman]

Be advised that there is a charge of $2350 for officially renouncing your US citizenship. 

[BritTim]

5 hours ago, wtboatr said:

If I renounce my US citizenship while I possess an Elite Visa, will this invalidate my Elite Visa?  I assume the Elite Visa is somehow tied to my US passport.  Would I be better off applying for the Elite Visa under my St. Kitts Passport once I am in possession of it?

 

If you go for a Thailand Elite visa, it should be linked with the passport you intend to use for the long haul. It is unclear whether it would be possible to transfer the visa from a US passport to that of another country.

[galt1967]

IF I were going to 'renounce' US citizenship (replacing with St Kitts) and obtain a Thai Elite visa, the sequence could be:

 

1) Obtain St. Kitts Passport (citizenship)

2) Apply for Thai Elite 20-year visa

3) Approved and stamped TE into StK PP

4) Renounce US citizenship (passport)

 

During the pandemic, TE holders could not enter Thailand for about six months. A StK citizen could, however, travel to other countries or simply stay in StK.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan O]

On 2/13/2021 at 12:43 AM, BritTim said:

 

If you go for a Thailand Elite visa, it should be linked with the passport you intend to use for the long haul. It is unclear whether it would be possible to transfer the visa from a US passport to that of another country.

It was already addressed iin another thread that you can not transfer the Elite visa from one country's visa to another country's visa.  

 

I'm not clear why the need to renounce US citizenship. If you leave on a Elite visa long term and live in Thailand your out of the US physically. 

 

There are significant tax implications for renouncing US citizenship along with the process fees. You must pay taxes on all US held investments and may be required to sell or dispose of them as part of that process. Also not sure about any Social Security benifits that would kick in at normal retirement age and you would lose those as well, I believe

[Kelsall]

On 2/13/2021 at 4:52 AM, galt1967 said:

The easiest solution, I think, is purchasing a 20-year Thai Elite Visa AFTER getting your St Kits PP.

 

Can be done at ANY age and would provide (effectively) a 'resident's permit' to live in Thailand WITHOUT a lot of hassles.

 

You can stay/leave Thailand at-will with it.

I am aware of one person who did just that.

[Kelsall]

On 2/13/2021 at 2:05 AM, wtboatr said:

I was wondering if any Thai Visa forum members have a passport from the nation of St. Kitts and Nevis. If so, can you share your experiences with obtaining tourist visas, marriage visas, or retirement visas?

 

For all other forum members, can you share any thoughts on staying in the Kingdom of Thailand with a passport from St. Kitts and Nevis.

 

Why do I ask?  I'm looking into obtaining a citizenship from St. Kitts so I can renounce my US citizenship one day.  My plan is to reside in Thailand under the St. Kitts passport for a few years until I feel confident that I can remain in the country indefinitely.  When the time is right, I will walk in the US Embassy, renounce my US citizenship, and surrender my passport.

 

Thailand requires a visa for St. Kitts citizens to visit Thailand.  The USA also requires a visa for St. Kitts citizens to visit the USA. My worry is that if i give up my US citizenship and a visa is not granted to live in either the USA or Thailand, I'll have to call St. Kitts and Nevis my home until such time as I am granted a visa to live in Thailand.

 

I plan to pursue Thai citizenship since I'm married to a Thai national.  If I obtain Thai citizenship, I will feel a lot more comfortable giving up my US citizenship.  I plan to move to Thailand permanently with my wife in a couple years.  Once I make the move, I will have no need or desire to return to the US.

 

Thank you in advance for your comments.  They are sincerely appreciated.  Renouncing my US citizenship is a big decision.  I need to fully understand the ramifications before I take the leap.

It is a big decision and one issue is an exit tax you must pay.  I once asked a wealthy investor who had multiple citzenships if he had renounced his US citienship.  He said, "I can't affort do.  They make it too expensive."  However, I am aware of people of average means who have done it without a problem.  I am also aware of one person who renounced his US citizenship then changed his mind.  There was no going back on the decision and the attorney relaying the story said he was working on getting the man US Permanent Residency.

Finally, I have an acquaintance who got drunk years ago and went into an embassy demanding to renounce his US citizenship ..he had no other citizenship...They politely escorted him out without honoring his request.

[Kelsall]

On 2/13/2021 at 5:20 AM, DrDave said:

There's something related that I've wondered about since there are several Caribbean nations that have citizenship-for-investment programs. If a US citizen gains citizenship in another country and subsequently renounces US citizenship, how difficult would it be to obtain a visa to return to the US as a visitor?  Knowing that the granting of US visas is extremely subjective, and no reason is typically given for denial, I wonder if renouncing citizenship raises a red flag making it difficult to obtain a visa in the future.

I know of a person who got a Dominica citizenship, renounced his US citizenship, and then found he could not get a visa to visit the US.  I believe he eventually did get a visa.  In his case I don't think the renunciation played a role.  He was simply treated like someone from a third world country.

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, Kelsall said:

I know of a person who got a Dominica citizenship, renounced his US citizenship, and then found he could not get a visa to visit the US.  I believe he eventually did get a visa.  In his case I don't think the renunciation played a role.  He was simply treated like someone from a third world country.

I think you're probably correct. An ex-American is as good as the passport he's applying for a U.S. visa with. For those that want to or need to go back for a visit, that's part of the equation. 

[Jingthing]

On 2/13/2021 at 11:45 AM, Issanman said:

Be advised that there is a charge of $2350 for officially renouncing your US citizenship. 

Also under the current abnormal pandemica world, it's much harder and much slower to even be allowed to renounce. Like it could take years. You don't just "walk in" and get that done instantly. 

[shy coconut]

Seems a bit extreme renouncing citizenship of your country in this example, I could 

understand it if you were to get, say, Thai citizenship, or see it as the only way to live 

permanently in St Kitts, but the benefit being a US citizen are some of the best to be 

had on the planet unless you were traveling through some lawless caliphate.

 

I guess the long arm of the tax authorities can reach you anywhere, but even that seems a 

lot of trouble to go to to save a few dollars.

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, shy coconut said:

Seems a bit extreme renouncing citizenship of your country in this example, I could 

understand it if you were to get, say, Thai citizenship, or see it as the only way to live 

permanently in St Kitts, but the benefit being a US citizen are some of the best to be 

had on the planet unless you were traveling through some lawless caliphate.

 

I guess the long arm of the tax authorities can reach you anywhere, but even that seems a 

lot of trouble to go to to save a few dollars.

 

It's not that extreme for wealthier Americans that have decided they want to live abroad for the rest of their lives. Being a U.S. citizen abroad can be a major PITA with banking, taxing, reporting, etc.

[Why Me]

1 hour ago, shy coconut said:

I guess the long arm of the tax authorities can reach you anywhere, but even that seems a 

lot of trouble to go to to save a few dollars.

Wouldn't be a few for seriously wealthy people. Say your investments in the Euro zone are bringing in a million a year. Uncle Sam would want a fair bite out of that - I would guess at the top tax rate so that would be 300k+. Tax haven countries won't ask a penny. Of course, if the bulk of your investments is in the US itself then it's going to be harder to give the IRS the slip whatever your passport.

[wtboatr]

On 2/13/2021 at 7:48 AM, galt1967 said:

IF I were going to 'renounce' US citizenship (replacing with St Kitts) and obtain a Thai Elite visa, the sequence could be:

 

1) Obtain St. Kitts Passport (citizenship)

2) Apply for Thai Elite 20-year visa

3) Approved and stamped TE into StK PP

4) Renounce US citizenship (passport)

 

During the pandemic, TE holders could not enter Thailand for about six months. A StK citizen could, however, travel to other countries or simply stay in StK.

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/13/2021 at 7:48 AM, galt1967 said:

This 4 step plan makes a lot of sense.  This is the path I will pursue.

I understand that Thai Elite visa holders were restricted from entering the country.  This was a special case.  The lesson to be learned here is that if another pandemic or similar situation occurs that affects entry into the country, the best thing to do is to stay in Thailand until the situation returns to 'normal'.

 

 

On 2/12/2021 at 2:50 PM, ukrules said:

 

Roger Ver did this, they refused him an entry visa. Google his name.

 

Once you're out, then you ain't getting back in, possibly ever.

 

I did some research on Roger Ver.  He has made several entries into the USA since he gave up his US citizenship.  He currently resides in Japan.

 

In any event, I've lived in the USA all my life.  I've seen all I need to see.  I don't foresee any need to return once I leave.  My new life and my new future will be outside the USA.  I have a Thai wife and two Thai step-children currently living in Thailand.

 

5 hours ago, Dan O said:

I'm not clear why the need to renounce US citizenship. If you leave on a Elite visa long term and live in Thailand your out of the US physically. 

 

There are significant tax implications for renouncing US citizenship along with the process fees. You must pay taxes on all US held investments and may be required to sell or dispose of them as part of that process. Also not sure about any Social Security benefits that would kick in at normal retirement age and you would lose those as well, I believe

 

There is no true need to renounce my US citizenship.  I first visited Thailand in 2005.  It has been my goal to live in Thailand ever since.  I've worked extremely hard to make this goal a reality.  I've done well for myself in business and am in the long process of selling everything I own prior to my exit.  This has been my plan for the past 16 years.  The time is right for me to take this action now.

 

Business is in my heart, soul, and blood.  I will undoubtedly start a couple of businesses while in Thailand.  I do not feel the need to support the US government though my personal business efforts.  I will gladly pay tax to Thailand.  The business climate and the opportunities are better in Thailand than the US.  Giving up my citizenship frees me from the burden of reporting my personal and business activities to the US, as well as the payment of taxes on income over $100,000.

I simply don't feel free as a US citizen.  I feel like I live in a Stalinist state with the government always trying to take away my freedoms and everything I've worked hard to obtain.  They motto of the US is that it's the land of the free.  Try to drink a beer on the beach in the USA and you'll be ticketed by the police and have to pay a fine in excess of $500.  Whether or not my beliefs about the lack of freedom in the USA is paranoia or real, renouncing my citizenship alleviates this burden that's always present on my mind.  Things have been getting worse for for most people in the US, the trend is that it's going to continue get worse.  I believe forward looking people who've done well for themselves in the US see this trend and are also planning their exit strategy before its too late.

On 2/12/2021 at 4:58 PM, VocalNeal said:

Nearest embassy is Taiwan. When you need consular services, like a new passport.

That's good to know.  Nevis & St. Kitts is a very small country.  It makes sense that they wouldn't have too many embassies around the world.  It would be nice if they had a consul in Thailand.  I guess this gives me the excuse to visit Taiwan on occasion. 

I'll do some research to see if they have a consul closer than Taiwan.  If not, that's OK.  I'd only need their services to renew or replace lost passports.

 

 

Another comment was made that it could take years to formally renounce.  This may be the case. It's also the case that it can be done in 2 weeks or less.  The time period is not a concern for me.  There's no rush.  If it were to take a year, I'm fine with that.

 

On 2/12/2021 at 8:45 PM, Issanman said:

Be advised that there is a charge of $2350 for officially renouncing your US citizenship. 

That's fine by me.

 

I thank you all for your comments and advise.  I come here for the best advice on strategies for living long term in Thailand.  Your responses are top notch.  Even if some of the comments aren't 100% accurate, I still do my own research to find out what is correct.

 

 

 

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, wtboatr said:

I did some research on Roger Ver.  He has made several entries into the USA since he gave up his US citizenship.  He currently resides in Japan.

Interesting, the last I heard about him was when they denied his visa - that was a few years back...I guess he appealed and they relented.

 

He only wanted to visit his family if I remember correctly, they made things difficult for him. Worth keeping this in mind anyway and good to hear he got back in eventually.

[galt1967]

Regarding 'how long does it take to renounce', from what I understand(?) it's a fairly quick process.

 

It requires going to a US Embassy, OUTSIDE the country, and initiating the process. Under today's circumstances, however, I would initiate the process in a country with a large staff. London or Mexico City, for example. Perhaps more efficiently handled and accustomed to Americans seeking this.

 

Next, I would expect AFTER renunciation to never, ever be on US soil again. Never. While you can apply for a visa, their are ZERO guarantees of approval. None. For me, I would expect to be permanently black listed from the US. Worst case scenario is what I plan for in this case.

 

Lastly on Social Security, yes, after renunciation it WILL pay out. The money belongs to the earner regardless of citizenship.

 

 

 

 

[simon43]

[quote]

...Try to drink a beer on the beach in the USA and you'll be ticketed by the police and have to pay a fine in excess of $500.

[/quote]

 

The same in Thailand!  Many resort locations have similar rules, although the fine is probably lower.  Living in Thailand doesn't suddenly mean that common-sense (and illogical) rules go out of the window....

[Sophon]

5 hours ago, wtboatr said:

<snipped>

Business is in my heart, soul, and blood.  I will undoubtedly start a couple of businesses while in Thailand.  I do not feel the need to support the US government though my personal business efforts.  I will gladly pay tax to Thailand.  The business climate and the opportunities are better in Thailand than the US.  Giving up my citizenship frees me from the burden of reporting my personal and business activities to the US, as well as the payment of taxes on income over $100,000.
<snipped>

 

Since you plan on starting businesses when you move to Thailand, you may want to consider that as a U.S. citizen you can own a business in Thailand 100% under the Treaty of Amity. Once you renounce your U.S. citizenship you lose that advantage, and your businesses have to be majority owned by Thai partners. 

[wtboatr]

15 hours ago, Sophon said:

 

Since you plan on starting businesses when you move to Thailand, you may want to consider that as a U.S. citizen you can own a business in Thailand 100% under the Treaty of Amity. Once you renounce your U.S. citizenship you lose that advantage, and your businesses have to be majority owned by Thai partners. 

The Treaty of Amity is a great benefit of being a US citizen living in Thailand.

 

However, in my case, the fact that a Thai partner owns 51% on paper is meaningless without the ability to take the business from conception to final sale.  Yes, the Thai partner would be entitled to 51% of the equity, but the fact that he/she/they would be doing the brunt of the daily tasks at my direction entitles them to a fair share of equity at final sale.

[wtboatr]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:50 PM, ukrules said:

 

Roger Ver did this, they refused him an entry visa. Google his name.

 

Once you're out, then you ain't getting back in, possibly ever.

 

I did some more research on this topic.

 

Roger Ver currently holds a 10 year multi-entry visa to the United States.  He is a convicted felon who spent 10 months in Federal Prison.

 

If a convicted felon who renounced his US citizenship is able to obtain a 10 year multi-entry visa to the United States with his St.Kitts passport, I believe I most likely won't have any issues obtaining a visa to enter the US if I ever have the need.