Pattaya: Chinese to the rescue - pumping billions of baht into Jomtien

[Showtime]

16 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

Sounds like invasion by stealth to me

 

So true my friend so true.

[Destiny1990]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I wouldn't say no to the Chinese restaurants. 

Once these Chinese entrepreneurs are moving prepare urself that in Pattaya these Chinese owned  bars  one bottle of Whiskey will be 800 USD. Chinese developer Condo Studio unit 22 sqm 4 Million Baht. Visit Sihanoukville if don’t believe me.

[daveAustin]

16 hours ago, misterjames said:

And so it begins...

'Nooo... Now it ends!'

 

      - GoT at its best. 

[daveAustin]

Is it me, or has the world not had enough of China? And, by China, I mean the F politburo! Pattaya will likely get bought up cheaply by this bunch and be completely sterilized, with the Thai army smiling on. Yuck.

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the reasons they stopped the project at Bali Hai pier. Are you not from pattaya?

Well more exactly the view of a statue had been spoiled, and I mean from the perspective of the statue's eyes....  but yes. 

[wavodavo]

15 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Where does it say this is a government company?  Doesn't seem to be a loan.

A high percentage of chinese companies that invest around the world are state owned. You  wouldnt  know going by the name but they are.

[soi3eddie]

16 hours ago, smedly said:

wow not even a mention of casino .............. yet

 

I think you're on the right track. Next we'll read that in order to attract more visitors a "special zone" is needed for some casinos. 

 

[hansnl]

Chinese takeover.

[jacko45k]

22 minutes ago, hansnl said:

Chinese takeover.

Yes, I wish they would stick to takeaway.

[J Town]

3 hours ago, daveAustin said:

'Nooo... Now it ends!'

 

      - GoT at its best. 

So, are you saying "Winter is coming?"

 

????

[bojo]

10 hours ago, adammike said:

Where next for us snowbirds now?

The horizon has certainly changed, does anyone have any hot tips?

[mikebell]

It's almost as if Covid 19 was manufactured in a lab & spread round the world to aid the Chinese in their quest for domination. No wonder conspiracy theories abound.

[newnative]

4 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

Not my words, but the reason given for the rejection of planning for other buildings. Please acquaint yourself with some local information on other planning decisions earlier.

 

Just curious.  What building plans in Pattaya were rejected because they blocked views to the mountains?  

[polpott]

17 hours ago, rcuthbert said:

Did anyone else have naughty thoughts about the babe in the white pant suit?

ladyboy.

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, polpott said:

ladyboy.

You wish

[newnative]

4 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Once these Chinese entrepreneurs are moving prepare urself that in Pattaya these Chinese owned  bars  one bottle of Whiskey will be 800 USD. Chinese developer Condo Studio unit 22 sqm 4 Million Baht. Visit Sihanoukville if don’t believe me.

   Plenty of 22sqm studios in Bangkok for 4MB already by Thai developers.  There's a 23sqm studio at Riviera Jomtien listed for 3.7MB on Hipflat.  Doesn't mean you have to buy any of them--or that $800 bottle of whiskey.

[Stargeezr]

I guess China is tired of their ghost cities, which they have more than 2 ,  so now

they are investing in other countries.  I just hope that Thailand does not

turn into Cambodia too soon.  The high speed train from China to Singapore  does not

really bode well for the future either.

  Oh well, one problem at a time

Geezer

[Moo 2]

Dear Thailand, China like the US are not after friendship but only business and control of the rest of the world, so when Chinese come to this country, if they come, keep your eyes open. As for the US they are not hiding anything, everyone knows they want to control the world, but at least we know about it!

[Destiny1990]

5 hours ago, newnative said:

   Plenty of 22sqm studios in Bangkok for 4MB already by Thai developers.  There's a 23sqm studio at Riviera Jomtien listed for 3.7MB on Hipflat.  Doesn't mean you have to buy any of them--or that $800 bottle of whiskey.

Just pointing out that these overseas Chinese investors have a tendency to heavily increase the prices and especially overcharging their own countrymen who they know only manage the Chinese language.

[pegman]

On 2/16/2021 at 5:01 AM, Whip said:

Just a matter of time. Then boom- another war- typical of the human species.

Why bring the Americans into this?

[Kerryd]

On 2/16/2021 at 2:56 PM, Jeffr2 said:

Seems to be the old Ocean One project. 

 

https://www.lucean-pattaya.com/

Same land.
Wonder how they acquired it. I'd have thought it would be tied up in the courts for decades with people trying to get their money back from that scam. I had to laugh as it was something like 3 years after the scammers took off and their website was still showing live camera feeds of the cement plant they claimed was supplying the concrete for the project. Except people noticed the plant was right in the middle of where the building was supposed to be and the cement being produced was being trucked off somewhere else.
The website was still flogging condo units as well. I was tempted to send them an inquiry to see if they would respond but decided I just didn't care enough to be bothered.

I think the site is still up but the camera feed is gone. 

 

On 2/16/2021 at 5:34 PM, Jeffr2 said:

If I'm not mistaken, that's one of the reasons they stopped the project at Bali Hai pier. Are you not from pattaya?

The Bali Hai condo was stopped for 2 reasons. Someone played loosey-goosey with the land survey which apparently allowed that project to build on land/waterfront it shouldn't have been allowed on. (There were arguments and counter-arguments going on ages ago about the legality of the project's footprint. It's not uncommon here for people to decide to go a "little over the line" and then say "hey, it's already built so just ignore the encroachment". Like the owner of Sukwadee who just had 2 of his buildings demolished by the city not long ago as they too were deemed to have encroached on public land.)
 
The 2nd reason was, after they got all the approvals and started construction, someone came up with the brainy idea of just adding another 20 floors to the existing plan ! It seems they didn't even submit the revision for approval and just went ahead and built the extra floors.
I recall it was in the news some time ago (years now) that the builders had been ordered to remove those 20 extra floors (and didn't of course).

It seems the builders also decided to scrimp on things like the fire stairs (making them much smaller than what had been agreed on in the approved design).

Then the public outcry started when people saw it was being built right in front of that monument (Krom Luang Chumphon Monument) and blocking the view of the sea. The culmination of the 3 things has lead the city ordering the project to be demolished. I think they are still soliciting bids for the demolition.

I looked at that place a couple weeks ago and I wouldn't live there if they gave me a suite for free. It looks like it is one good windstorm away from toppling even without those 20 extra floors, which I doubt the original structural design would have accounted for.

You can see in these photos there's a pretty clear line between the original design and the 20 extra floors they added on. As well, you can see how thin the building is. I'm sure all the sailors out there know what effect adding that much extra "canvas" can have in a gale. 
  

This one is zoomed in to show the extra 20 floors added on afterwards.



I'm wondering how the **** they are going to bring that down without screwing it up. Even a professionally done controlled (explosive) demolition leaves a huge pile of debris which, in this case, is probably going to be much larger than the building's footprint owing to it's height and narrowness. That means it's likely a lot of debris is going to end up falling outside that area. Assuming the whole thing doesn't topple over and crash down onto the Bali Hai pier that is.

[Leaver]

Chinese investors may be a life line for many farang here who have been trying to sell for years, but can not. 

 

In the future, they may be able to cash out, and get out, thanks to the Chinese. 

   

[newnative]

51 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Same land.
Wonder how they acquired it. I'd have thought it would be tied up in the courts for decades with people trying to get their money back from that scam. I had to laugh as it was something like 3 years after the scammers took off and their website was still showing live camera feeds of the cement plant they claimed was supplying the concrete for the project. Except people noticed the plant was right in the middle of where the building was supposed to be and the cement being produced was being trucked off somewhere else.
The website was still flogging condo units as well. I was tempted to send them an inquiry to see if they would respond but decided I just didn't care enough to be bothered.

I think the site is still up but the camera feed is gone. 

 

The Bali Hai condo was stopped for 2 reasons. Someone played loosey-goosey with the land survey which apparently allowed that project to build on land/waterfront it shouldn't have been allowed on. (There were arguments and counter-arguments going on ages ago about the legality of the project's footprint. It's not uncommon here for people to decide to go a "little over the line" and then say "hey, it's already built so just ignore the encroachment". Like the owner of Sukwadee who just had 2 of his buildings demolished by the city not long ago as they too were deemed to have encroached on public land.)
 
The 2nd reason was, after they got all the approvals and started construction, someone came up with the brainy idea of just adding another 20 floors to the existing plan ! It seems they didn't even submit the revision for approval and just went ahead and built the extra floors.
I recall it was in the news some time ago (years now) that the builders had been ordered to remove those 20 extra floors (and didn't of course).

It seems the builders also decided to scrimp on things like the fire stairs (making them much smaller than what had been agreed on in the approved design).

Then the public outcry started when people saw it was being built right in front of that monument (Krom Luang Chumphon Monument) and blocking the view of the sea. The culmination of the 3 things has lead the city ordering the project to be demolished. I think they are still soliciting bids for the demolition.

I looked at that place a couple weeks ago and I wouldn't live there if they gave me a suite for free. It looks like it is one good windstorm away from toppling even without those 20 extra floors, which I doubt the original structural design would have accounted for.

You can see in these photos there's a pretty clear line between the original design and the 20 extra floors they added on. As well, you can see how thin the building is. I'm sure all the sailors out there know what effect adding that much extra "canvas" can have in a gale. 
  

This one is zoomed in to show the extra 20 floors added on afterwards.



I'm wondering how the **** they are going to bring that down without screwing it up. Even a professionally done controlled (explosive) demolition leaves a huge pile of debris which, in this case, is probably going to be much larger than the building's footprint owing to it's height and narrowness. That means it's likely a lot of debris is going to end up falling outside that area. Assuming the whole thing doesn't topple over and crash down onto the Bali Hai pier that is.

     The project does not have 20 extra floors 'added on afterwards'.  That is incorrect, I believe.  The top floors in your photos were in the least finished state when construction was halted in August 2014.   The lower floors were being finished during construction while the upper floors were still being built and that is why they look more finished.  The project build was actually way ahead of schedule when it was stopped.

      The details as to why construction was stopped are quite muddled but, according to the law office that represented the owners, the land encroachment issue actually involved the sales office and not the condominium itself--one corner of the low-rise sales office next to the project was on public land.  The dispute with the building itself seemed to be with the parking space design that was built not being according to the submitted plan and the amount of total space that was built--apparently it was more than allowed but certainly not 20 stories more.  Some years ago one buyer showed me a document he had received from the law office asking him to approve a different parking design--I think at that time they were still trying to get approval to restart construction.  I think there were some other things the buyers had to also agree to, possibly a reduction in the number of units.    

     In my opinion, everything would have continued to go merrily along to completion--this is Thailand--were it not for the protestors that you mentioned.  They raised a lot of bad publicity for the mayor at that time--who at first supported the project and then, when the bad publicity continued to grow, changed course and ordered construction stopped.  My solution would be to tear down the encroaching sales office and those largely unfinished top floors in your photos--the see-thru floors.  They would likely be the easiest to dismantle.

     

[Kerryd]

It seems the issue about the "20 floors" has to do with there supposedly being a limit on buildings restricting them to 20-30 floors (or there was such a restriction at the time) and the Bali Hai project was going to be 20 floors higher than that (and the city council, lead then by the current mayor's brother, supposedly objected to the height but were over-ruled). The 2014 article in the Nation didn't mention where that "20-30" floor limit came from, just that the protesters were using that as one of their points along with the project being "within 100 meters" of the water. (See below.)
Who overruled the mayor and city council ? Supposedly it was the "building board and regional leaders". (Which probably means someone with the authority to remove any mayor that messes with their decision.  Note that the Army was in charge of the government at the time. Not the "elected Army" but the coup leadership. Same thing but before they arranged to have themselves elected to their positions.)

Also, in 2018 the city ordered the crane to be removed from the top as it had been there, unused, since 2014 and they were worried it might fall off. Apparently there was talk of lowering the number of floors at the same time (maybe dropping it by 20 so it would be compliant with the regulations ?) but nothing ever came of it.

As for the land encroachment. It seems the building was going to be built within 100 meters of the "waterline" (high tide mark ?) which would have been illegal but - gee - guess what ? The city approved the construction of a new marina on reclaimed land which would extend that "waterline" 100 meters further out, thus making the land the condo project was on "legal". 
According to an article in 2020, the "marina extension" project had been ongoing for 6 years with no end in sight.

Which means it didn't even start until 2014, 10 years after the condo project started and around the same time the condo project was halted. Sounds like a shell game.
"You can't build there as it's too close to the water. Well, then, lets announce a planned project that will move that boundary and let the condo construction commence with the understanding that it will be legal - eventually - and then let the expansion project quietly fade away."

And part of the problem was, after the public protests shone a light on the project, the city found out that it wasn't just the fire stairs that the builders had changed but the elevators as well. The city ordered the construction to halt so they could try and determine what other unauthorized changes had been done but guess what ?  The builders decided to ignore the order and continued construction (though they eventually did get shut down with the contractors blaming the developers for the miscommunication).

It seems that over a year after construction was halted the company was still trying to sell the units and claimed that only 38 were left unsold. They filed to restructure in 2017 and that failed and then they filed for bankruptcy. Apparently there are a lot of lawsuits still pending.
 

[Kerryd]

Note with the Chinese. They have been expanding their influence rapidly over the last few years, mainly by loaning poor countries (Burma, Cambodia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Djibouti to name a few) tons of money - in exchange for certain "rights". Like how they "supposedly" have a long term lease on the Ream Naval base in Cambodia despite the Cambodian PM's claims otherwise. (The same base where they suddenly decided to raze 2 new buildings the Americans had built for the Cambodians, shortly after the lease deal - that doesn't exist - was approved).

Sihanoukville is an hour's drive north of the base and the Chinese built an airbase - er - "airport" across the bay from there (at Dara Sakor) with runways larger than needed for even the biggest commercial jets (like the 747 cargo and A380s) but conveniently long enough for China's heavy bombers. They say the "airport" is supposed to be to get all those Chinese tourists to/from the resort the Chinese also built around Dara Sakor.
A NY Times reporter went there in Dec 2019 (before covid became a crisis) and reported the resort was deserted and the marina restaurant had a single Chinese family in it - who'd brought seafood with them in plastic bags to avoid paying the resort's prices.

(Interestingly, Google maps won't show that "airport" for some reason. Almost like they were told not to, as happens with various military installations in different parts of the world. Not what you'd expect from an ordinary "airport" though. Unless you were trying to hide it's true purpose of course.)

Apparently, a company with no international dealings managed to secure a 99 year lease on what amounts to 20% of Cambodia's shoreline. That lease is the only asset the company has (in other words, it is a shell company) and there was no open bidding for the lease. The land concession is 3 times larger than allowed under Cambodian law and the company doesn't have to make a single lease payment for the first 10 years. They are also building a deep sea port near the airport that can handle 10,000 ton ships which would include pretty much all of the ships in China's navy less their aircraft carrier and a series of new destroyers being built.. 

They have done similar moves in Burma, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, essentially giving them the ability to project force across the entire Indian Ocean right to Africa.

The Chinese have set up "Development Banks", often in partnership with the host countries. The aim of these banks is to buy (or finance) infrastructure projects like dams, bridges, toll highways and other (strategic) infrastructure (like power generation facilities). 
They even use the host country's money to buy the host country's infrastructure which is then controlled by the bank (in other words, owned by China) !!

(Canada's Liberal Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, approved the creation of one such bank in Canada after attending a "pay for access" dinner with a group of Chinese businessmen early in his first term. One of them was seeking the PM's approval for the bank and another businessman, who supposedly had no connection to the first one, was apparently so impressed with Trudeau that he spontaneously decided to donate $1 million to Trudeau's Family Trust. 
It seems that doesn't count as a bribe, even after the PM announced that such donations would have no effect on his decision making. (The bank was approved of course, but not because of the million dollars that suddenly appeared in the Family Trust account.) 

Many of those countries are so indebted to the Chinese (or reliant on their support) that they can't say no to any demands made by the Chinese. And let us not forget that there is a very large percentage of the population here that probably think of themselves as Chinese first and Thai second, even if their families have lived here for generations.

(Note too that the construction of the airport and resort in Cambodia was apparently done by Chinese companies and workers - not Cambodian so there wasn't that much economic gain for the locals.
Including the ones who were (allegedly) run off their land by "people in uniforms with guns" so that their land could be conceded to the Chinese.

One article I read noted that in Sihanoukville, 95% of the restaurants are Chinese "funded" (i.e. owned) and 250 of the 256 hotels are also "Chinese owned".

I seriously doubt they'd invest 4.5 billion baht in a project without having the controlling interest firmly in their pocket, one way or another. Let's hope they are held to a higher standard for safety during construction than they are in Cambodia. 

(I chuckle as I recall some years ago a lot of the "Pattaya Regulars" were bemoaning the situation in Thailand and talking about relocation to Sihanoukville which had the potential to be the next "Pattaya" - for those who got there early and bought cheap. I bet they weren't expecting to be bulldozed to the side by hordes of Chinese entrepreneurs !

[Leaver]

43 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Note with the Chinese. They have been expanding their influence rapidly over the last few years, mainly by loaning poor countries (Burma, Cambodia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Djibouti to name a few) tons of money - in exchange for certain "rights". Like how they "supposedly" have a long term lease on the Ream Naval base in Cambodia despite the Cambodian PM's claims otherwise. (The same base where they suddenly decided to raze 2 new buildings the Americans had built for the Cambodians, shortly after the lease deal - that doesn't exist - was approved).

Sihanoukville is an hour's drive north of the base and the Chinese built an airbase - er - "airport" across the bay from there (at Dara Sakor) with runways larger than needed for even the biggest commercial jets (like the 747 cargo and A380s) but conveniently long enough for China's heavy bombers. They say the "airport" is supposed to be to get all those Chinese tourists to/from the resort the Chinese also built around Dara Sakor.
A NY Times reporter went there in Dec 2019 (before covid became a crisis) and reported the resort was deserted and the marina restaurant had a single Chinese family in it - who'd brought seafood with them in plastic bags to avoid paying the resort's prices.

(Interestingly, Google maps won't show that "airport" for some reason. Almost like they were told not to, as happens with various military installations in different parts of the world. Not what you'd expect from an ordinary "airport" though. Unless you were trying to hide it's true purpose of course.)

Apparently, a company with no international dealings managed to secure a 99 year lease on what amounts to 20% of Cambodia's shoreline. That lease is the only asset the company has (in other words, it is a shell company) and there was no open bidding for the lease. The land concession is 3 times larger than allowed under Cambodian law and the company doesn't have to make a single lease payment for the first 10 years. They are also building a deep sea port near the airport that can handle 10,000 ton ships which would include pretty much all of the ships in China's navy less their aircraft carrier and a series of new destroyers being built.. 

They have done similar moves in Burma, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, essentially giving them the ability to project force across the entire Indian Ocean right to Africa.

The Chinese have set up "Development Banks", often in partnership with the host countries. The aim of these banks is to buy (or finance) infrastructure projects like dams, bridges, toll highways and other (strategic) infrastructure (like power generation facilities). 
They even use the host country's money to buy the host country's infrastructure which is then controlled by the bank (in other words, owned by China) !!

(Canada's Liberal Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, approved the creation of one such bank in Canada after attending a "pay for access" dinner with a group of Chinese businessmen early in his first term. One of them was seeking the PM's approval for the bank and another businessman, who supposedly had no connection to the first one, was apparently so impressed with Trudeau that he spontaneously decided to donate $1 million to Trudeau's Family Trust. 
It seems that doesn't count as a bribe, even after the PM announced that such donations would have no effect on his decision making. (The bank was approved of course, but not because of the million dollars that suddenly appeared in the Family Trust account.) 

Many of those countries are so indebted to the Chinese (or reliant on their support) that they can't say no to any demands made by the Chinese. And let us not forget that there is a very large percentage of the population here that probably think of themselves as Chinese first and Thai second, even if their families have lived here for generations.

(Note too that the construction of the airport and resort in Cambodia was apparently done by Chinese companies and workers - not Cambodian so there wasn't that much economic gain for the locals.
Including the ones who were (allegedly) run off their land by "people in uniforms with guns" so that their land could be conceded to the Chinese.

One article I read noted that in Sihanoukville, 95% of the restaurants are Chinese "funded" (i.e. owned) and 250 of the 256 hotels are also "Chinese owned".

I seriously doubt they'd invest 4.5 billion baht in a project without having the controlling interest firmly in their pocket, one way or another. Let's hope they are held to a higher standard for safety during construction than they are in Cambodia. 

(I chuckle as I recall some years ago a lot of the "Pattaya Regulars" were bemoaning the situation in Thailand and talking about relocation to Sihanoukville which had the potential to be the next "Pattaya" - for those who got there early and bought cheap. I bet they weren't expecting to be bulldozed to the side by hordes of Chinese entrepreneurs !

 

You mention Sihoukville many times in your post.  Sihanoukville is done, and if they are not careful here, Pattaya will go to same way, even without casinos.

 

Vietnam is Thailand's biggest threat to tourism.  From what I have seen on my several visits there, they are building their tourism industry bigger, better, and faster. 

 

Vietnam makes Thailand look like they are going in reverse. 

 

Tourist numbers up 32%, pre covid, from the previous year.

 

https://vietnamtourism.gov.vn/english/index.php/statistic/international?csrf_test_name=7fa6de3c6e5100cdfcd99e58de978e78&txtkey=&year=2020&period=t1

 

Thailand may very well end up like the Nokia phone company.  They had some much of the market that they thought they could never lose it, until they went broke.  

[RJRS1301]

3 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

You mention Sihoukville many times in your post.  Sihanoukville is done, and if they are not careful here, Pattaya will go to same way, even without casinos.

 

Vietnam is Thailand's biggest threat to tourism.  From what I have seen on my several visits there, they are building their tourism industry bigger, better, and faster. 

 

Vietnam makes Thailand look like they are going in reverse. 

 

Tourist numbers up 32%, pre covid, from the previous year.

 

https://vietnamtourism.gov.vn/english/index.php/statistic/international?csrf_test_name=7fa6de3c6e5100cdfcd99e58de978e78&txtkey=&year=2020&period=t1

 

Thailand may very well end up like the Nokia phone company.  They had some much of the market that they thought they could never lose it, until they went broke.  

The above posts appear to relate to the much lauded assistance given to nations from developing to developed nations across the globe under the Chinese Belt and Road initiatives.

Which country has done the infrastructure for the high speed trains and rolling stock ? Loan terms unseen,.

The Chinese also have taken 99 year lease on port in Darwin, built roads and infrastructure across Pacific nations, with loans which they cannot repay. 
The modern version of Sun Tzu “Art of War “

 

[jacko45k]

9 hours ago, Leaver said:

Chinese investors may be a life line for many farang here who have been trying to sell for years, but can not. 

 

In the future, they may be able to cash out, and get out, thanks to the Chinese. 

   

Yes that has been their desperate hope for some years now... many I know are still waiting. 

[Leaver]

13 hours ago, RJRS1301 said:

The above posts appear to relate to the much lauded assistance given to nations from developing to developed nations across the globe under the Chinese Belt and Road initiatives.

Which country has done the infrastructure for the high speed trains and rolling stock ? Loan terms unseen,.

The Chinese also have taken 99 year lease on port in Darwin, built roads and infrastructure across Pacific nations, with loans which they cannot repay. 
The modern version of Sun Tzu “Art of War “

 

 

I wouldn't call it "assistance."  I would call it "acquiring."  

[Leaver]

10 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Yes that has been their desperate hope for some years now... many I know are still waiting. 

 

Well, it's not going to come from westerners.  That boat has sailed.  Numbers were down, way down, pre covid. 

 

For those looking to cash out and get out, best hope for a Chinese invasion.