Scotland's first minister Sturgeon faces resignation call amid row with predecessor

[polpott]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Who do you think would make a better choice of FM? Is there a more honest, decent party that you think should replace the SNP?

Scottish Labour.

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, david555 said:

Seems the English really shxxng their pants for that referendum ....putting their backroom dark forces at work ...

.

 

 

What referendum?

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Thank you - so your point is what? Scotland, as a country, has had its resources expropriated by its parasitic neighouring country. If you wish to take offence to that, you are perfectly entitled to take that position but it would be a ridiculous position to take. 

 

I don't recall you mentioning country in the post I showed you, you said "being bled for centuries by a parasitic neighbour." Again we are all responsible for our words.

 

It has got to the stage now that most of your post are very caustic, it would be nice if you showed some decorum on this forum.????

[polpott]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

I don't recall you mentioning country in the post I showed you, you said "being bled for centuries by a parasitic neighbour." Again we are all responsible for our words.

 

It has got to the stage now that most of your post are very caustic, it would be nice if you showed some decorum on this forum.????

It would be nice if you desisted from trying to turn this debate into a series of point scoring personal attacks. back on topic please (you too @RuamRudy)

[RuamRudy]

Just now, vogie said:

I don't recall you mentioning country in the post I showed you, you said "being bled for centuries by a parasitic neighbour." Again we are all responsible for our words.

 

It has got to the stage now that most of your post are very caustic, it would be nice if you showed some decorum on this forum.????

 

It is in the very post you showed. You might have a point if I had written of 'historically parasitic people' but I never wrote that because I am intelligent enough to realise that the people of a country do not, as a rule, direct the actions of its government.  

 

This gaslighting, Vogie, you seem to be unable to help but utilise it every time you are boxed into a corner. 

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, polpott said:

Scottish Labour.

 

I think Scottish Labour could, once again, be the dominant force in an independent Scotland. There is no doubt that they have lost their way of late, but their values (on paper) tend to align with those of many Scots, I think.

 

Personally, I hope for a much more rainbow parliament in the future. We need to break away from 2 party politics and build on consensus and horse trading. 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, colinneil said:

Sorry cannot do that, but i saw it on the BBC about 4 days ago, i look at BBC news every morning, and noticed it.

Well I found this among the BBC files dated 1 day ago which may help clear (or muddy) the waters.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56247123

 

On average the last four polls last year put support for independence on 56%. Now the most recent readings (from the same four companies) suggest the figure is a more modest 52%.

Meanwhile, the equivalent comparison suggests that SNP support (on the constituency vote) has slipped from 54% to 52%.

 

There is more if anybody wants to dig deeper into the article.

[vogie]

19 minutes ago, polpott said:

It would be nice if you desisted from trying to turn this debate into a series of point scoring personal attacks. back on topic please (you too @RuamRudy)

Deleted.

Edited March 3, 2021 by vogie

[polpott]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I think Scottish Labour could, once again, be the dominant force in an independent Scotland. There is no doubt that they have lost their way of late, but their values (on paper) tend to align with those of many Scots, I think.

 

Personally, I hope for a much more rainbow parliament in the future. We need to break away from 2 party politics and build on consensus and horse trading. 

The SNP has always been seen by most people as a one trick pony, Scottish independence. They lost the first referendum by almost 2 to 1. However, that was on the back of a firm promise of remaining in the EU and dire warnings about what would happen to the Scottish economy if they gained independence and were unable to rejoin the EU, 2 years later the UK voted to leave the EU but Scotland voted to remain. We all know what happened next and I assumed that in any future referendum Scotland would vote overwhelmingly for independence. That has not been the case and subsequent polls have suggested that it would vote remain again or it would be a very close run thing. IMO the remainers would win again.

 

The SNP dream is over, time to call it a day and fight for a more fair and equitable UK government in Westminster. Don't forget that before the inception of the SNP Scottish Labour routed the Tories in Scotland, leaving them with zero seats, a feat that the SNP hasn't been able to repeat. A strong Scottish Labour showing at the next GE, could well see the Tories kicked into the long grass where they belong. Third parties would only succeed in weakening that fight.

[englishoak]

Said last year when and if  the Alex  issue was brought into the light things would get very interesting fast and open a well earned and corrupted can of worms... 

 

Lets be honest and frank. Someone has been telling big porkys  and everything they are going to try and wriggle out of will make them look even less credible. Its not Alex, now hes been tried, vindicated and still having attempts to gag him from speaking  you cant blame the guy for now fighting back, if anything he's to be commended for putting Scotland before the politics.. 

 

In short it seems The queen of Scots has tried to politically murder their mentor in the dark for reasons best known only to them. With very weak evidence a smear campaign colleagues have engaged in possibly dodgy deals, deeds that border on a leadership conspiracy to silence, Brought the Scottish  judicial into disrepute on the way  and still miserably  failed.

 

They in turn now have to face the music, possibly and I think in time likely face the chopping block and  only have themselves to blame...

 

This has nothing to do with another referendum,, it is all about the SNP leadership and how its handled itself, how can you handle a nations possible move to independence if you cant even be trusted as a leader . The funniest part is the timing is all Scotlands and SNP  making

 

Tick Tock Tick Tock....

 

Dont deflect or try to blame Westminster for any of this... its 100% a Scottish scandal, the biggest its had in decades, certainly since devolution and entirely an SNP one too.. cant say im surprised mind you... politicians are mostly all dodgy as heck with plenty of skeletons, whatever the party or nation... the SNP is clearly no better about lying and abusing power it seems than any other. Maybe worse and just more amateur at it... whod have known ? 

Edited March 3, 2021 by englishoak

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, polpott said:

The SNP has always been seen by most people as a one trick pony, Scottish independence. They lost the first referendum by almost 2 to 1. However, that was on the back of a firm promise of remaining in the EU and dire warnings about what would happen to the Scottish economy if they gained independence and were unable to rejoin the EU, 2 years later the UK voted to leave the EU but Scotland voted to remain. We all know what happened next and I assumed that in any future referendum Scotland would vote overwhelmingly for independence. That has not been the case and subsequent polls have suggested that it would vote remain again or it would be a very close run thing. IMO the remainers would win again.

 

The SNP dream is over, time to call it a day and fight for a more fair and equitable UK government in Westminster. Don't forget that before the inception of the SNP Scottish Labour routed the Tories in Scotland, leaving them with zero seats, a feat that the SNP hasn't been able to repeat. A strong Scottish Labour showing at the next GE, could well see the Tories kicked into the long grass where they belong. Third parties would only succeed in weakening that fight.

 

55/45 is not quite 2 to 1 but there is no denying that during the campaign they lost the impetus they were building, and they were blindsided by the confusion over currency. I remember watching Salmond during the debates and was almost disillusioned at his performance. But also remember the 2015 GE, following the referendum defeat. They went into it with 6 MPs and emerged with 56. Out of defeat they grabbed victory.

 

Since then, Scottish Labour has sunk in terms of reputation; their getting into bed with the tories in several councils may have given them a taste of power once more, but it has not gone down well with the electorate at large. 

 

And, of course, one only needs to look at the state of UK polling to see what a continuance of the union has in store for Scotland - UK Labour should be romping home now, but they are nowhere to be seen. 

 

If Starmer cannot turn the fortunes of the Labour party round, there is no way that Sarwar can; but even if he could, it is not for Scotland to save the Labour Party from itself.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, englishoak said:

Said last year when and if  the Alex  issue was brought into the light things would get very interesting fast and open a well earned and corrupted can of worms... 

 

Lets be honest and frank. Someone has been telling big porkys  and everything they are going to try and wriggle out of will make them look even less credible. Its not Alex, now hes been tried, vindicated and still having attempts to gag him from speaking  you cant blame the guy for now fighting back, if anything he's to be commended for putting Scotland before the politics.. 

 

In short it seems The queen of Scots has tried to politically murder their mentor in the dark for reasons best known only to them. With very weak evidence a smear campaign colleagues have engaged in possibly dodgy deals, deeds that border on a leadership conspiracy to silence, Brought the Scottish  judicial into disrepute on the way  and still miserably  failed.

 

They in turn now have to face the music, possibly and I think in time likely face the chopping block and  only have themselves to blame...

 

This has nothing to do with another referendum,, it is all about the SNP leadership and how its handled itself, how can you handle a nations possible move to independence if you cant even be trusted as a leader . The funniest part is the timing is all Scotlands and SNP  making

 

Tick Tock Tick Tock....

 

Dont deflect or try to blame Westminster for any of this... its 100% a Scottish scandal, the biggest its had in decades, certainly since devolution and entirely an SNP one too.. cant say im surprised mind you... politicians are mostly all dodgy as heck with plenty of skeletons, whatever the party or nation... the SNP is clearly no better about lying and abusing power it seems than any other. Maybe worse and just more amateur at it... whod have known ? 

 

Personally, I cannot argue with any of that. There are a lot of angry independence supporters out there, dismayed at what they are seeing. Whether it turns them against the SNP remains to be seen, but I think they will weather it. There is no other credible vehicle to independence so, for many, better holding your nose and voting SNP. Once we are independent we can sort out our political institutions and dispel with the villains of the piece. 

[polpott]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

If Starmer cannot turn the fortunes of the Labour party round, there is no way that Sarwar can; but even if he could, it is not for Scotland to save the Labour Party from itself.

Back in April the polls showed 51% Con 29% Labour. By November they were level pegging. Currently 42 - 36. Those fortunes are turning.

[polpott]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Personally, I cannot argue with any of that. There are a lot of angry independence supporters out there, dismayed at what they are seeing. Whether it turns them against the SNP remains to be seen, but I think they will weather it. There is no other credible vehicle to independence so, for many, better holding your nose and voting SNP. Once we are independent we can sort out our political institutions and dispel with the villains of the piece. 

Not going to happen. Westminster won't agree to another referendum and I'm not sure that SNP would win it even if they did.

[JonnyF]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Once we are independent we can sort out our political institutions and dispel with the villains of the piece. 

In the unlikely event you get a second referendum and win it, you'll have much bigger issues to worry about than this. 

 

Isolated, no trade deals with the UK or EU, limited control of your monetary policy, facing a decade of austerity and lead by the SNP. Be careful what you wish for.

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, polpott said:

Back in April the polls showed 51% Con 29% Labour. By November they were level pegging. Currently 42 - 36. Those fortunes are turning.

 

I admire your faith in the party, but look at the disaster of a year that the country has had, and how much worse it has been made by Johnson and the Tories. There must be something far wrong with Labour, in the eyes of voters, when they are not dominating the polls.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

In the unlikely event you get a second referendum and win it, you'll have much bigger issues to worry about than this. 

 

Isolated, no trade deals with the UK or EU, limited control of your monetary policy, facing a decade of austerity and lead by the SNP. Be careful what you wish for.

 

That just about sums up where we are now. Who do you think is going to pay for all those contracts Hancock has been giving to his friends? Who is going to pay for the furlough scheme that has had to go on much longer than need be because of the incompetent handling of the pandemic by our Prime Minister? Who is going to pay for business stimulus since Johnson has trashed the economy by making a bad situation many times worse? Add to that the stupidity of Brexit and the laughing stock that the UK is around the world, and you have to really ask yourself why anyone would want to hitch a ride on this clown train. 

[englishoak]

30 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Personally, I cannot argue with any of that. There are a lot of angry independence supporters out there, dismayed at what they are seeing. Whether it turns them against the SNP remains to be seen, but I think they will weather it. There is no other credible vehicle to independence so, for many, better holding your nose and voting SNP. Once we are independent we can sort out our political institutions and dispel with the villains of the piece. 

 

Im sure that will be NS prime directive and game plan , to ignore, bluster, silence questions and continue on trying to keep her seat of power as head. Problem is its not the party or its message but the leadership that is what I see as the problem. 

 

IF there is no other answer to the leadership than a corrupt and if i may say, apparently a very vindictive and dishonest one too where does that leave the SNP other than with a major issue of trust and dis/honesty ? do you really think most Scots dont care about that ? Most I know most certainly do... Scottish pride isnt a small thing in my experience... the price might for many nationalists be acceptable  but for the majority ? I think thats not  so certain. 

 

You must realise Westminster will make the most of this and the longer its left to fester the more it will have an impact. I can only get worse for the SNP should they delay or dither from being seen to do the right thing and move on from a clearly flawed and unwillingly accountable leader. This is not a good look and the SNP will only lose from not dealing with  it ASAP and transparently too. 

 

Clean house and get busy with it immediately I suggest would be best, delay and attempt to cover this and I fear it will all collapse in a utter mess. Then Scotland  can kiss any chance of leaving goodbye. Attempting to patch things and muscle through on a message of, independence is more important than honesty and integrity is I think in this current age a HUGE mistake.  Support can  vanish as fast as its rise, just ask Labour ????

 

It must be another to take leadership and the SNP forward not NS or it could utterly destroy all the party has strived for,  I think its that simple.

 

Is NS bigger or more important than the partys credibility  ? than Scotland ? Than anything ? Are the majority Scots really that shallow and willing to reward dishonesty at the highest level, follow, forgive whats looking like a clear liar and one discredited ? Personally I think not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by englishoak

[JonnyF]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

That just about sums up where we are now. Who do you think is going to pay for all those contracts Hancock has been giving to his friends? Who is going to pay for the furlough scheme that has had to go on much longer than need be because of the incompetent handling of the pandemic by our Prime Minister? Who is going to pay for business stimulus since Johnson has trashed the economy by making a bad situation many times worse? Add to that the stupidity of Brexit and the laughing stock that the UK is around the world, and you have to really ask yourself why anyone would want to hitch a ride on this clown train. 

Not really. Now you have trade deals with many nations including the EU and free trade with your biggest trading partner, the rest of the UK. You’d be throwing that all away.

 

Plus you will be liable for your share of the furlough scheme and the economic damage caused by the pandemic whether you stay or leave. You can’t just walk away and abscond on your share of the debt. You want to try paying that back while following an isolationist policy of zero trade deals? With little control of your monetary policy? It would be economic suicide.

[englishoak]

On the BBC Scotland section theres a good breakdown of the questions NS must answer to the Holyrood Enquiry.

 

If the conclusion or answer is probably or Yes to any one of them NS  should be utterly finished in Scottish politics  by next month and the SNP should not waste any more time on her and throw her under the bus without hesitation....

 

Read them and tell me you can from what we know and truthfully, say no to all of them.. bet you cant but I bet NS will. 

 

If you thought this wasnt monumental and a massive issue every Scottish Newspaper is running on the front page storys on it about calls for her to resign and on the Brink etc... not saying i care for rags because I dont but not one is ignoring this issue now in the Scottish media, they cant and thats nothing but bad for NS and the SNP image thats for sure. 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by englishoak

[Rookiescot]

28 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Not really. Now you have trade deals with many nations including the EU and free trade with your biggest trading partner, the rest of the UK. You’d be throwing that all away.

 

Plus you will be liable for your share of the furlough scheme and the economic damage caused by the pandemic whether you stay or leave. You can’t just walk away and abscond on your share of the debt. You want to try paying that back while following an isolationist policy of zero trade deals? With little control of your monetary policy? It would be economic suicide.

 

Sounds like an argument for staying in the EU that.

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Sounds like an argument for staying in the EU that.

Somewhat predictable.

 

However the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and as you have seen, is more than capable of striking trade deals very quickly. Leaving the EU is far less problematic than leaving the UK since the EU is essentially a trading bloc (for now) and we never joined the Euro. Plus the EU is not a country, with all that entails.

 

If you think Scotland leaving the UK will be as easy, think again. 

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

It is unfathomable that there are still a small minority of people willing to back them despite what they have done to our country. I guess you will always have that minority of selfish, greedy people no matter where you are in the world.

Bit hard that RR, there can be some justification in some areas.

I was brought up in Moray and that has been a SNP/Tory battle for many years for two main reasons, Kinloss and Lossiemouth. When I was young the population of Forres was only about 4000 and now over 12, similarly Elgin has more than doubled. This higher than average increase was mainly due to service personnel from the 2 military bases retiring in the area. Not your home grown SNP supporters.

In the 2014 referendum it was the prospect of losing the bases that to a certain extent swayed the Moray vote. However with Westminster closing RAF Kinloss the tide has turned and in 2019 the SNP vote was up by over 5% with the Tories barely hanging on. Every chance the seat will go to the SNP this time round.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, colinneil said:

Funny you should mention English pounds, few years ago i left Shetland for a 3 week +++++++ holiday here, had a pocket full of Clydesdale bank 20 pound notes.

Oh stupid me, very little +++++++ happened as no bank or exchange kiosk would change the damned money, no cannot, no not real money, so think about that when prattling on about Scottish independence.

That is garbage. Under the IMF Article 8 international banks are only obliged to exchange the latest version of a national currency. The most recent version of the Bank of England note will always be taken as the latest version, that does not mean that any other note issued in the UK is not real money.

A couple of years ago a friend of mine came over from Belfast and he had a fistful of BOE £20 notes that he had got from an ATM the day before leaving. They were the previous series and none of the exchangers would take them. Were they not real money?

That would be a bit strange, I exchanged them for him and paid them into my account next time I was in UK.

[colinneil]

16 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That is garbage. Under the IMF Article 8 international banks are only obliged to exchange the latest version of a national currency. The most recent version of the Bank of England note will always be taken as the latest version, that does not mean that any other note issued in the UK is not real money.

A couple of years ago a friend of mine came over from Belfast and he had a fistful of BOE £20 notes that he had got from an ATM the day before leaving. They were the previous series and none of the exchangers would take them. Were they not real money?

That would be a bit strange, I exchanged them for him and paid them into my account next time I was in UK.

So you reckon my post is garbage, you are clearly living in cloud cuckoo land, as no bank will exchange Scottish notes.

Quote any damned thing you like, but in the real world, nobody wants Scottish bank notes.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Not really. Now you have trade deals with many nations including the EU and free trade with your biggest trading partner, the rest of the UK. You’d be throwing that all away.

 

Plus you will be liable for your share of the furlough scheme and the economic damage caused by the pandemic whether you stay or leave. You can’t just walk away and abscond on your share of the debt. You want to try paying that back while following an isolationist policy of zero trade deals? With little control of your monetary policy? It would be economic suicide.

 

Why would an independent Scotland be subject to any more of an isolationist policy than the one thrust upon it against its wishes? Nothing could compare to that small minded stupidity.  

 

There will be no debt to repay unless the other debtors repay theirs at the same time. What will happen is that any debt accepted by Scotland will continue to be serviced as long as the rest of the debt remains unpaid. But you knew that, I am sure. As for monetary policy control, I have yet to hear how this would change from the current circumstance. Can you enlighten us with practical examples?

[JonnyF]

8 minutes ago, colinneil said:

So you reckon my post is garbage, you are clearly living in cloud cuckoo land, as no bank will exchange Scottish notes.

Quote any damned thing you like, but in the real world, nobody wants Scottish bank notes.

 

Correct.

 

Plus Thai banks and kiosks dont give a toss what IMF article 8 says. They do what they want and know they will get away with it. 

[sandyf]

9 minutes ago, colinneil said:

So you reckon my post is garbage, you are clearly living in cloud cuckoo land, as no bank will exchange Scottish notes.

Quote any damned thing you like, but in the real world, nobody wants Scottish bank notes.

You obviously didn't try Superrich.

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Why would an independent Scotland be subject to any more of an isolationist policy than the one thrust upon it against its wishes? Nothing could compare to that small minded stupidity.  

 

There will be no debt to repay unless the other debtors repay theirs at the same time. What will happen is that any debt accepted by Scotland will continue to be serviced as long as the rest of the debt remains unpaid. But you knew that, I am sure. As for monetary policy control, I have yet to hear how this would change from the current circumstance. Can you enlighten us with practical examples?

 

You will be liable for the debt under international law. It's not a case of you accepting it or not, you're not in such a strong position to dictate such things. You'll take it.

 

As for monetary policy you won't be able to adjust interest rates or affect quantitative easing. There are 2 practical examples.

 

[RuamRudy]

13 minutes ago, colinneil said:

So you reckon my post is garbage, you are clearly living in cloud cuckoo land, as no bank will exchange Scottish notes.

Quote any damned thing you like, but in the real world, nobody wants Scottish bank notes.

 

You are correct that there is an issue with trying to use Scottish issued STERLING bank notes. If we gain our independence then there will be, I presume a period where they will be exchanged by the Scottish government for English bank notes. Within Scotland they would have parity with English notes; outwith Scotland it would be advisable to convert them to English notes for the interim period while a Scottish currency is being set up. Again, hardly a reason to remain in an unsatisfactory situation.