Scottish leader fights back in row with ex-mentor that threatens independence drive

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Comparisons need to be made but not the ones you make in your attempt to deflect.The most worrying one is that England it would be unthinkable for the Crown Prosecution Service to interfere with a House of Commons Inquiry in the disgraceful way that has occurred in the Scottish equivalents.Even admirers of Sturgeon, of which I am one, need to recognise something stinks in this business.

 

I think most of us are capable of holding more than one comparative thread in our heads - so we can look at both, surely?

 

The comparison with how Johnson et al escapes any comparable scrutiny is clear so we can certainly park it, although it won't go away. 

 

As for the conduct of the Lord Advocate's office, I think it is clear that there are questions to be asked about their overall processes; last month they got heavily criticised for their pursuit of Rangers directors in a case that was seen as a malicious and vindictive pursuit of innocent men. 

 

If you are referring specifically to its refusal to allow Salmond to introduce to the committee information which was revealed to him specifically to allow him to prepare his defence in his trial, this is a factor of Scots law, one which, in fact, was introduced when he was FM. 

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Selective memory, what about Mark Thatcher.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mark-thatcher-files-stay-secret-to-spare-blushes-on-arms-deal-93vbpjxv0

The title of the thread is "Scottish leader fights back in row with ex-mentor that threatens independence drive". Just in case you are doing a Nichola Sturgeon and you can't recall.

 

You are making apologies with your very poor comparison. I was unaware that Mark Thatcher was a First/Prime Minister or did you miss a few letters off and you are on about Mar garete.

 

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If the tories weren't so despised in Scotland, they would have more seats. Its as simple as that. 

 

I'm not sure the Tories are so despised in Scotland in the way you suggest.I think Johnson is but that's a different matter.There's a long and honourable history of Scottish conservatism, fiercely proud and independent epitomised by the great John Buchan who said every Scot should be a nationalist.The SNP leadership is now left leaning and they have the wind behind them, even with present shenanigans and they will do well in May.But I wouldn't rule Scottish Tories out, even after independence - if it happens.They are Scots before they are Unionists.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

I'm not sure the Tories are so despised in Scotland in the way you suggest.I think Johnson is but that's a different matter.There's a long and honourable history of Scottish conservatism, fiercely proud and independent epitomised by the great John Buchan who said every Scot should be a nationalist.The SNP leadership is now left leaning and they have the wind behind them, even with present shenanigans and they will do well in May.But I wouldn't rule Scottish Tories out, even after independence - if it happens.They are Scots before they are Unionists.

 

I think what you refer to is conservatism with a small C. There is no doubt that there is a sizeable number of people in Scotland, especially in the rural communities who hold more Presbyterian views, and many who still vote Tory out of faithfulness to party if not personalities or current policy. 

 

 

I would hope that whatever is left of the Tory party does reassemble itself after independence. We need strong parties of every hue to work to the betterment of our country, including a centre-right party. I believe that it is possible that such a party can exist without requiring to carry the toxic baggage of the ongoing tory attacks on the lower strata of society. 

 

Contrary to what some might think, I do not believe that single party dominance is a good thing for any parliament, whether in Edinburgh or London. I much prefer the notion of a rainbow government working collaboratively. Of course it would not be without stability issues, but that means that collaboration and consensus is crucial, hopefully leading to more nuanced legislation. 

 

[polpott]

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

I recall reading that Salmond is one of the longest serving parliamentarians in the UK. Granted he's been spinning his wheels a wee bit since his electoral loss but in my opinion, to suggest this archetypal political animal is not a threat is a bit misguided. In my mind they are both sleeckit craturs but Salmond is the master and Sturgeon's only the apprentice.

He's not a parliamentarian. Not been an MSP since 2016 nor an MP since 2017. Resigned from SNP in 2018. Now works for RT (Russia Today) as a journalist.

[polpott]

37 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I'm not sure the Tories are so despised in Scotland in the way you suggest.I think Johnson is but that's a different matter.There's a long and honourable history of Scottish conservatism, fiercely proud and independent epitomised by the great John Buchan who said every Scot should be a nationalist.The SNP leadership is now left leaning and they have the wind behind them, even with present shenanigans and they will do well in May.But I wouldn't rule Scottish Tories out, even after independence - if it happens.They are Scots before they are Unionists.

555. Scottish Conservatives won zero seats in 1997, one seat in 2001, 2005, 2010 and 2015 GEs. A long and honourable history indeed!

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Indeed they will (unless Sturgeon uses Covid as an excuse to delay them), and I suspect many of them will have nothing but distain for the way Scottish politics has descended into the gutter.

 

Unlike the usual suspects on here who are quite happy for their leader to be exposed as a liar who uses public money to try to get their innocent political opponents jailed for sex crimes, as long as it gets Scotland away from decisions being made by the English, sorry I mean Westminster.

 

I have already said the I think Sturgeon should go. Even if she is innocent the entire thing is stinky. You talk as if she is guilty beyond all doubt. To my knowledge that has not been established at all.

No-one and nothing matters more than getting independence.

[jayboy]

27 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I think what you refer to is conservatism with a small C. There is no doubt that there is a sizeable number of people in Scotland, especially in the rural communities who hold more Presbyterian views, and many who still vote Tory out of faithfulness to party if not personalities or current policy. 

Actually I'm not referring to social conservatives but to Scottish Tories, not the same thing at all.Even in the recent General Election when the SNP triumphed as never before, the Scottish Tories managed at least half the SNP's vote total.With proportional representation - not that I'm arguing for it - they would be a very sizeable force.With Labour in Scotland a dead horse, I'm pretty sure the SNP leadership isn't complacent about the Tory threat, all the more formidable if independence is achieved and the SNP (shades of the Brexit Party) has served its essential purpose.

 

[jayboy]

22 minutes ago, polpott said:

555. Scottish Conservatives won zero seats in 1997, one seat in 2001, 2005, 2010 and 2015 GEs. A long and honourable history indeed!

Thatcher didn't go down well in Scotland.Before then the Tories were a powerful element in Scotland for over a hundred years so educate yourself on the history. With respect you are really missing the point.In living memory the Tories were the leading party in Scotland in numbers of voters.You miss out the 2017 GE in which the Tories in Scotland out polled Labour and achieved only about 200,000 votes less than the SNP'S 980,000 votes.A proportional representation system would make the Tories a force to reckon with - not that I support PR.

 

I'm not suggesting the Tories are a threat to the SNP any time soon but it's just silly to pretend they're not a very significant part of the Scottish political culture and have been for a long time.

[polpott]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Thatcher didn't go down well in Scotland.

Thatcher was long gone by 1997. Suggest you educate yourself. What happened 100 years ago has no bearing on today. i think that everyone who voted 100 years ago may now be dead. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[sammieuk1]

We want our independence after we get your vaccine ???? 

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

We want our independence after we get your vaccine ???? 

 

Who's vaccine?

 

[polpott]

16 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Who's vaccine?

 

AZ vaccine developed in Oxford. I guess the English have bragging rights on that one. 555

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

 

I have already said the I think Sturgeon should go. Even if she is innocent the entire thing is stinky. You talk as if she is guilty beyond all doubt. To my knowledge that has not been established at all.

No-one and nothing matters more than getting independence.

 

My point is that this whole affair which has happened under Sturgeon's watch has dragged Scottish politics through the mud.

 

I believe that many Scots, like me, will easily see through her lies and selective memory. The more fanatical nationalists won't care, but not everyone is that fanatical. Some will not simply hold their nose and vote for her anyway, some will find the stench unbearable and vote for another party or simply lose interest and stay at home.

 

Anyway let's see, they say countries get the leaders they deserve.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Thatcher didn't go down well in Scotland.Before then the Tories were a powerful element in Scotland for over a hundred years so educate yourself on the history. With respect you are really missing the point.In living memory the Tories were the leading party in Scotland in numbers of voters.You miss out the 2017 GE in which the Tories in Scotland out polled Labour and achieved only about 200,000 votes less than the SNP'S 980,000 votes.A proportional representation system would make the Tories a force to reckon with - not that I support PR.

 

I'm not suggesting the Tories are a threat to the SNP any time soon but it's just silly to pretend they're not a very significant part of the Scottish political culture and have been for a long time.

1955.

That was the last time the Conservatives won the majority of seats in Scotland.

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

My point is that this whole affair which has happened under Sturgeon's watch has dragged Scottish politics through the mud.

 

I believe that many Scots, like me, will easily see through her lies and selective memory. The more fanatical nationalists won't care, but not everyone is that fanatical. Some will not simply hold their nose and vote for her anyway, some will find the stench unbearable and vote for another party or simply lose interest and stay at home.

 

Anyway let's see, they say countries get the leaders they deserve.

 

I know that social media is no substitute for hard data but my twitter feed is awash with people stating that either they have joined or rejoined the SNP yesterday, or that that their family members and friends have joined. I don't do the facebook thing but I am advised that a similar picture can be seen there. 

 

Of course, there are a few independence supporters who are scunnered by the entire situation and blame her; there are some who believe that it was an attempt to fit up Salmond and blame here, but in general they seem to be outnumbered significantly. To me, it looks like she has won the day. 

 

16 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I believe that many Scots, like me, will easily see through her lies and selective memory.

 

Is that simply a confusing sentence structure or are you Scottish?

[Rookiescot]

20 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

My point is that this whole affair which has happened under Sturgeon's watch has dragged Scottish politics through the mud.

 

I believe that many Scots, like me, will easily see through her lies and selective memory. The more fanatical nationalists won't care, but not everyone is that fanatical. Some will not simply hold their nose and vote for her anyway, some will find the stench unbearable and vote for another party or simply lose interest and stay at home.

 

Anyway let's see, they say countries get the leaders they deserve.

 

As if you were ever going to vote for her anyway.

We will find out in May if you are right and indeed how many are "fanatical" enough to vote for the SNP.

 

A country gets the leader it deserves? The UK certainly did. A man sacked twice for lying.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, sammieuk1 said:

We want our independence after we get your vaccine ???? 

 

And where exactly is that vaccine being manufactured?

I seem to remember the RAF were on standby to fly it into the UK from a factory in Belgium.

[BobBKK]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Selective memory, what about Mark Thatcher.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mark-thatcher-files-stay-secret-to-spare-blushes-on-arms-deal-93vbpjxv0

Mark Thatcher was CEO of the Conservative Party?  learn something new everyday!  snigger, snigger

[BobBKK]

2 hours ago, polpott said:

555. Scottish Conservatives won zero seats in 1997, one seat in 2001, 2005, 2010 and 2015 GEs. A long and honourable history indeed!

 

deflection

[polpott]

26 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

And where exactly is that vaccine being manufactured?

I seem to remember the RAF were on standby to fly it into the UK from a factory in Belgium.

That was the Pfizer vaccine. AZ produced in several locations in UK but mainly in India.

[polpott]

4 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

deflection

But undeniably true.

[BobBKK]

34 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

As if you were ever going to vote for her anyway.

We will find out in May if you are right and indeed how many are "fanatical" enough to vote for the SNP.

 

A country gets the leader it deserves? The UK certainly did. A man sacked twice for lying.

 

They will get substantial votes as the one policy party that they are. BTW I could not care less... if they have their own Police, Army, Air Force and all the other things they will need as 'independent' let them go but it will never happen. They will bleat, and cry and whine that 'independance' doesn't really mean any of that it means they'll keep all the goodies that Britain provides but like 'The Great Pretender" will pretend they are independant. The problem is the UK will probably let them!

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, polpott said:

But undeniably true.

 Yes it is true - I loathe the Tories just as much as I loathe Labour - hence I'm in Thailand - cheers!

[polpott]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

 

They will get substantial votes as the one policy party that they are. BTW I could not care less... if they have their own Police, Army, Air Force and all the other things they will need as 'independent' let them go but it will never happen. They will bleat, and cry and whine that 'independance' doesn't really mean any of that it means they'll keep all the goodies that Britain provides but like 'The Great Pretender" will pretend they are independant. The problem is the UK will probably let them!

Sounds just like the UK's attitude to the EU.

[JonnyF]

56 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

As if you were ever going to vote for her anyway.

We will find out in May if you are right and indeed how many are "fanatical" enough to vote for the SNP.

 

A country gets the leader it deserves? The UK certainly did. A man sacked twice for lying.

 

Yes that's the beauty of Democracy. Hopefully you accept the result this time.????

 

I will ignore your attempted deflection, this is a thread about Sturgeon.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I know that social media is no substitute for hard data but my twitter feed is awash with people stating that either they have joined or rejoined the SNP yesterday, or that that their family members and friends have joined. I don't do the facebook thing but I am advised that a similar picture can be seen there. 

 

Of course, there are a few independence supporters who are scunnered by the entire situation and blame her; there are some who believe that it was an attempt to fit up Salmond and blame here, but in general they seem to be outnumbered significantly. To me, it looks like she has won the day. 

 

 

Is that simply a confusing sentence structure or are you Scottish?

 

Twitter is a left wing echo chamber, especially if like you all the people you follow are hardcore Scottish nationalists.

 

No doubt your feed was full of Remainers prior to Brexit as well.

 

You're very easily confused if having read my posts for several years you think I am Scottish, that level of confusion could explain your undying support of the Scottish nasty Party ????.

 

 

[Rookiescot]

38 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Yes that's the beauty of Democracy. Hopefully you accept the result this time.????

 

I will ignore your attempted deflection, this is a thread about Sturgeon.

 

And if a majority of MSP's are returned who support independence will you accept there should be another referendum?

 

Do remember that unlike Westminster its very hard to get a majority in Holyrood.

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

And if a majority of MSP's are returned who support independence will you accept there should be another referendum?

 

Do remember that unlike Westminster its very hard to get a majority in Holyrood.

 

This is not a vote on Independence. This is a vote on a whole host of issues. Education, health, the economy, the handling of the pandemic etc. etc.

 

So no, I don't believe that a vote for a particular party can be twisted to mean a vote for Scottish Independence.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, JonnyF said:

 

This is not a vote on Independence. This is a vote on a whole host of issues. Education, health, the economy, the handling of the pandemic etc. etc.

 

So no, I don't believe that a vote for a particular party can be twisted to mean a vote for Scottish Independence.

 

In the same way the last general election was not a vote on Brexit?

Its all Johnson talked about.