SURVEY: Should Scotland seek independence from the UK?

[puchooay]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

And yet Norway generates far more income from the same oil at the same price.

 

Why UK’s oil and gas revenues are dwarfed by Norway’s – Business for Scotland

 

 

And that is going to help Scotland in the future?

 

How do you feel about the other points in my post? Just so say Norway makes money does not mean that Scotland will. It's not even on the table yet of how much of the oil revenue Scotland will keep, if they can get the population to vote for independence.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, puchooay said:

And that is going to help Scotland in the future?

 

How do you feel about the other points in my post? Just so say Norway makes money does not mean that Scotland will. It's not even on the table yet of how much of the oil revenue Scotland will keep, if they can get the population to vote for independence.

 

Indeed yes. Scotland is unique in its inability to manage itself. We are totally useless.

You failed to answer my point. Why is Norway making lots of money from oil but the UK seems incapable of doing it?

[puchooay]

18 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Indeed yes. Scotland is unique in its inability to manage itself. We are totally useless.

You failed to answer my point. Why is Norway making lots of money from oil but the UK seems incapable of doing it?

Why are you asking me? The answers, at least alledged answers are in the link you posted.

 

If true and accurate, how is that going to help Scotland if they become independent? How much will it cost them to nationalise the industry, even if they get any oil in the independence negotiations?

Edited March 27, 2021 by puchooay

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, puchooay said:

Why are you asking me? The answers are in the link you posted.

 

How is that going to help Scotland if they become independent? How much will it cost them to nationalise the industry, even if they get any oil in the independence negotiations?

 

You think Scotland will not have a claim over its territorial waters after independence?

What makes you think that? 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 3/25/2021 at 8:56 AM, RuamRudy said:

 

- UDI would be illegal in the eyes of the world and would cause problems long term. I know nobody who sees this as a desirable option while we still have a democratic process to follow. 

- Scotland already has a currency and will develop its own to relinquish the need to rely on a pre-independence legacy, especially one with such a troubling future ahead of it.

- Trade agreements are the easiest thing in the world to negotiate and we will hold all the cards ((TM) Brexiteers).

- Passports are not uniquely British in concept, design or manufacture. In fact, I understand that the UK cannot even manufacture their own so government has had to go to a better organised European country to do it for them.

- Debt will be negotiated (assuming that we don't go down the UDI route) and will be reasonable and transparent. But the debt will be to the holders of the bonds, not to rUK, which already has eye-watering levels of debt itself (albeit to the same people). bkkcanuck8 has posted some very good write-ups of debt management and future trade opportunities. 

Without UDI how does Sturgeon propose to get a referendum to legitimise it, if she is reelected?

So the Groat will be the Scottish currency I guess as they have no claim on Stirling if they leave the UK without agreement. I guess you think the "Scottish" pound will be seen as legal, but try getting anyone to take a Scottish note now outside of Scotland.

What makes you think the Westminster would let the Scots out without paying their bill? You can't "do a runner" on this one.

 

We have crossed swords before on this subject and the truth is: Scotland can't afford to leave the UK, will not get a legitimate referendum for 20 years or more and will be ignored by the EU since all it has to offer is its fishing grounds. The EU want The Ukraine to join  not a pumped out gas country with a few million Euros worth of herring and a LOT of bad debt..

 

I do wish the SNP would stop this pie in the sky ideal and start to try and make a success of Scotland not ruin it as they have been doing.

 

Oh, and the Passports were subject to EU "fair competition" laws when they were ordered, I guess thanks to some Civil Servant <deleted>*. It was Poland that got the job, but it could have been done in the UK.

(*PS. Is "Berxiteer" a forbidden word too?)

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by George FmplesdaCosteedback
typo

[RuamRudy]

14 hours ago, puchooay said:

Are you using the slightly dated and unrevised 2013 figures? The ones that were used in 2019 as an arguement for independence?

 

 

I seem to recall Salmond, in 2014, making clear his view that oil was a bonus rather than the basis of Scottish independence. That Scottish financial accounts have not been produced to a detailed level since the 1970s has helped shroud our economic picture in mystery and enabled such belief as we are too poor to be independent. 

 

It is always useful, I think, to compare countries of similar scale. Ireland, with comparably limited natural resources, has a similar population and GDP per capita of $78.6k whereas Scotland's estimated GDP per capita is $31k. Doesn't that seem a little odd to you? Norway's GDP per capita, with a very similar resource base, is $75k. 

 

I guess what I am saying is that the data available is flawed and limited, and that the Scottish Government were foolish to accept that the GERS were a true reflection of the Scottish economy. The true picture is hidden. 

 

14 hours ago, puchooay said:

If so, you must be assuming that North Sea oil is owned wholly by Scotland. That the oil prices are going to remain at a sustainable level, despite carbon level targets. I believe that part of the independence negotiations, if the Scottish government can ever convince the electorate to vote for it, will be to split income, expenditure and debt.

 

Are you referring to north sea oil in your final sentence? If so, my position is simple: whatever falls within Scottish territorial waters belongs wholly to Scotland. The only negotiation will be to apportion the cost of abandonment of existing infrastructure to the rUK. 

 

But in your general point, I agree with you that oil is not a long term sustainable base for any economy, but Scotland is not the middle east - we have a mature and diverse economy, of which hydrocarbons is only a small part.

 

14 hours ago, puchooay said:

It is my understanding that the devolved nations all had/have their own policies with regards to Covid19.

 

 

Correct, but restricted to the competence of the parliaments. Border control is not within the competence of the devolved nations, and i think it is well understood that the full year of porous international borders was a major factor in exacerbating the situation. When it was mooted that the Scottish Gov could set up roadblocks between Scotland and England there were howls of outrage, with the SNP (again) being traduced for their 'anti-English' stance. Labour did exactly the same thing in Wales and it was seen as prudent and necessary. 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Without UDI how does Sturgeon propose to get a referendum to legitimise it, if she is reelected?

 

How long can an unwanted London government continue to deny the democratic rights of another country? It isn't a good look when the wishes of the people of Scotland are ignored by a government they haven't voted for since 1955.

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

So the Groat will be the Scottish currency I guess as they have no claim on Stirling if they leave the UK without agreement. I guess you think the "Scottish" pound will be seen as legal, but try getting anyone to take a Scottish note now outside of Scotland.

 

What agreement is needed? I have English pounds in my pocket and in my bank account. Will Sunak confiscate them?

 

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

What makes you think the Westminster would let the Scots out without paying their bill? You can't "do a runner" on this one.

 

What makes you think that this was even proposed? As I have stated many times, my expectation would be that Scotland would agree to accept credible debt based upon a full and transparent set of accounts.

 

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

We have crossed swords before on this subject and the truth is: Scotland can't afford to leave the UK, will not get a legitimate referendum for 20 years or more and will be ignored by the EU since all it has to offer is its fishing grounds. The EU want The Ukraine to join  not a pumped out gas country with a few million Euros worth of herring and a LOT of bad debt..

 

Have we? Forgive my failure to recall our previous discussions - possibly it is because you post such vapid nonsense as  this paragraph. 

 

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

(*PS. Is "Berxiteer" a forbidden word too?)

 

Is it? I hope not - it is much quicker to type than 'misguided xenophobic isolationist'. 

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

You think Scotland will not have a claim over its territorial waters after independence?

What makes you think that? 

The Scottish Navy. ????

[Surelynot]

Just now, Kwasaki said:

The Scottish Navy. ????

The UK already has to go cap in hand to France for escort vessels for HMS Elizabeth........I am sure they will be happy to lend an independent Scotland a few gun boats......

[RuamRudy]

13 hours ago, puchooay said:

Why are you asking me? The answers, at least alledged answers are in the link you posted.

 

If true and accurate, how is that going to help Scotland if they become independent? How much will it cost them to nationalise the industry, even if they get any oil in the independence negotiations?

 

Why would Scotland wish to nationalise the oil industry? That makes no sense? And why would there need to be negotiations as to who owns the oil fields? Do you seriously think that rUK might strong arm then away? This isn't the colonial era any more. 

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

The Scottish Navy. ????

We will base it at Faslane - a nice, big facility there, ideal for our naval defence force. 

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

This isn't the colonial era any more

Oh boy....you will either have a task on your hands convincing some on here......or you will have already upset a lot of people.

[Kwasaki]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

We will base it at Faslane - a nice, big facility there, ideal for our naval defence force. 

I don't see the point of Scotland being a separate country and not being part of UK. 

I will wait and see. 

I heard on LBC that Salmon funny enough another fish like Sturgeon is putting a spanner in the works and starting another party will that harm the independence goal of what many Scots seem to want.? 

[youreavinalaff]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

It isn't a good look when the wishes of the people of Scotland are ignored by a government they haven't voted for since 1955.

You forgot one word in there. Let's get this straight once and for all.

 

A "minority" of the Scottish electorate voted for independence. Not " the people of Scotland" but " a minority of Scotland".

 

That is the only vote that shows the real figures. Polls have been done to death. There are polls have been done to death and swing both ways, according to who the polls ask.

 

The true result came in the referendum. The same referendum that NS and AS called " one opportunity".

 

I'm all for Indyref2 but Scotland need to stop bleating on about how unfair Westminster is, just like a little child. Get a plan and try to start negotiations just like the grown ups do. That is when NS and AS have stopped their private spat.

[vogie]

1 hour ago, Surelynot said:

Oh boy....you will either have a task on your hands convincing some on here......or you will have already upset a lot of people.

If a Scots Nat told me it was raining I would have to send the dog out and see if it came back in wet, honesty is not a strong point of the Scottish Nationalists, as is proven.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

I don't see the point of Scotland being a separate country and not being part of UK. 

I will wait and see. 

I heard on LBC that Salmon funny enough another fish like Sturgeon is putting a spanner in the works and starting another party will that harm the independence goal of what many Scots seem to want.? 

It means that our country can get the government it votes for rather than the government the country next door voted for. Ditto membership of the EU. 

It will also mean that we can spend the money we raise as we choose rather than have to hand most of it to the country next door and have them decide how much to return to us. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by RuamRudy

[Rinrada]

Quick answer...YES...????

 

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

It means that our country can get the government it votes for rather than the government the country next door voted for. Ditto membership of the EU. 

It will also mean that we can spend the money we raise as we choose rather than have to hand most of it to the country next door and have them decide how much to return to us. 

What happens to people like my son in-law who doesn't want Scotland to leave UK and wants to stay in England.? 

[Rookiescot]

15 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

What happens to people like my son in-law who doesn't want Scotland to leave UK and wants to stay in England.? 

 

What do YOU think will happen?

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I don't see the point of Scotland being a separate country and not being part of UK. 

That's for the Scots to decide.

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

The Scottish Navy. ????

Which will be made up of the share of Royal Navy assets we will be entitled too.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

If a Scots Nat told me it was raining I would have to send the dog out and see if it came back in wet, honesty is not a strong point of the Scottish Nationalists, as is proven.

 

This from an ardent Brexiteer ????

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I don't see the point of Scotland being a separate country and not being part of UK. 

I will wait and see. 

I heard on LBC that Salmon funny enough another fish like Sturgeon is putting a spanner in the works and starting another party will that harm the independence goal of what many Scots seem to want.? 

 

Do you understand how voting for the Scottish parliament works?

No?

OK then.

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Surelynot said:

The UK already has to go cap in hand to France for escort vessels for HMS Elizabeth........I am sure they will be happy to lend an independent Scotland a few gun boats......

Had to borrow the aircraft on it from the United States as well.

 

All together now........ Rule Britannia, Britannia waives the rules...

[Rookiescot]

I see the "Once in a generation" straw man is starting to creep its way back into the thread.

But never mind "Dead in a ditch" or "Over my dead body" from Johnson eh?

This is of course the "Prime Minister for life" Boris Johnson. We are not allowed to have another general election for at least a generation.

 

Boris Johnson SLIPS in polls: PM sends election plea as Remainers plot for hung Parliament | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

 

BORIS JOHNSON has today urged Sunday Express readers to back the Conservative Party in a “critical once in a generation election” on Thursday.

 

????????????????

 

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, Surelynot said:

The UK already has to go cap in hand to France for escort vessels for HMS Elizabeth........I am sure they will be happy to lend an independent Scotland a few gun boats....

The Lancaster House agreement is bilateral. Hardly "cap in hand"

 

Nothing to see here. Move on please.????????????

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

This from an ardent Brexiteer ????

Brexiteers said we were leaving the EU........... We left.

Scots Nats say we are leaving the UK............... You are still in.

[Rookiescot]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Brexiteers said we were leaving the EU........... We left.

Scots Nats say we are leaving the UK............... You are still in.

Because Brexiteers are afraid of democracy.

[youreavinalaff]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

This is of course the "Prime Minister for life" Boris Johnson. We are not allowed to have another general election for at least a generation.

Oh dear. I really thought you might have knowledge of how elections work. How long each term is under law.

 

I can't believe that these people that you believe can run an independent Scotland did not ask for a rule with regards to how often a referendum can be held when campaigning pre 2014. The agreement in N.Ireland has been used as a comparison but, sadly for Scotland, only in hindsight

 

One other thing that baffles me. These people who are going to lead Scotland to independence and then run the country did not get even an inkling that there was disdain with EU growing in UK. Even just 2 year between Indyref and EU ref but the Scot Nats had no idea it was going to happen? Really? That's not the greatest example of forward thinking. Maybe AS had a chat with David Cameron and was advised that a referendum would likely take place but Remain would win at a center.

 

Either way, shocking planning and fore thinking. Not a great way to lead a country.

[Rookiescot]

9 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

The Lancaster House agreement is bilateral. Hardly "cap in hand"

 

Nothing to see here. Move on please.????????????

 

An agreement to let Rhodesia hold elections?

Interesting as it is I fail to see the relevance regarding the UK having to borrow foreign assets to protect its ships.