London police face backlash after dragging mourners from vigil for murdered woman

[Smithson]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Remind me.

Is it men or is it women doing most of the raping and killing?

It's men as you know, but a small minority. Does this mean we blame men as a group? I remember the Nazi's blaming one group for all society's problems. Didn't end well. I thought we had learnt.

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, loong said:

The fact that a woman was killed is terrible but the fact that the suspect is a police officer is also irrelevant.

Really? Was it also irrelevant that George Floyd murder suspect was a cop? Of course not.

The fact that the suspect is a member of the police is hugely significant. It's always worse when the institution that are supposed to be protecting people are the ones (allegedly) doing the killing. And then when the women hold a vigil and protest about male violence the women are assaulted by male cops. The Met couldn't have got it any more wrong. Especially after pathetically taking the knee in a similar protest a few months back.

Why no such showing of solidarity for these women (allegedly) killed by one of their own? Why the huge disparity between the 2 protests? Just a coincidence?

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, Smithson said:

It's men as you know, but a small minority. Does this mean we blame men as a group? I remember the Nazi's blaming one group for all society's problems. Didn't end well. I thought we had learnt.

As a general rule I think it wise to pause and consider if one is going a bit OTT whenever one’s hyperbole gets to the point of evoking references to the Nazis.

No sensible person is saying this is ‘all men’, though a number of men are, for reasons only they know,  acting out as though this as an accusation against all men.

 

The existence of wide spread make violence towards women is an indisputable fact.

For some reason some men get offended by the observation of the fact and doubly offended when women respond to the fact with protest.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Really? Was it also irrelevant that George Floyd murder suspect was a cop? Of course not.

The fact that the suspect is a member of the police is hugely significant. It's always worse when the institution that are supposed to be protecting people are the ones (allegedly) doing the killing. And then when the women hold a vigil and protest about male violence the women are assaulted by male cops. The Met couldn't have got it any more wrong. Especially after pathetically taking the knee in a similar protest a few months back.

Why no such showing of solidarity for these women (allegedly) killed by one of their own? Why the huge disparity between the 2 protests? Just a coincidence?

Go on, I know you’re dying to tell us?! 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, JackGats said:

Shifting the goal posts again.

Why didn't you point out in my post above about HALO that it's men who laid the mines in the first place?

Perhaps because that’s not the subject of discussion (even though you tried to make it so).

[TKDfella]

13 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

As a general rule I think it wise to pause and consider if one is going a bit OTT whenever one’s hyperbole gets to the point of evoking references to the Nazis.

No sensible person is saying this is ‘all men’, though a number of men are, for reasons only they know,  acting out as though this as an accusation against all men.

 

The existence of wide spread make violence towards women is an indisputable fact.

For some reason some men get offended by the observation of the fact and doubly offended when women respond to the fact with protest.

 

 

 

Certainly, there are some excessive remarks towards men in the UK such as politician Baroness Jones suggested a curfew for men after 6 pm. While most would see this as unlikely, it does nothing to calm the situation. And, of course, there are those who would immediately use this. The latest protest seemingly is a hijacking of the situation where, apparently, similarities to the George Floyd situation in the US are being claimed. Of course, there is really no comparison since one happened in broad daylight at a confrontation and the other a kidnap and murder.

[OswaldBastable]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The existence of wide spread make violence towards women is an indisputable fact.

I would write that as "the existence of wide spread male violence towards other people is an indisputable fact"

There is clearly more violence directed towards other men than there is towards women, and this is easily deduced from last year's murder numbers in London to the order of 24 dead women, and 126 dead men.

I do resent the notion that violence towards women is in some way worse than violence towards men. Are we not all human beings worthy of the right to live a peaceful and fear free existence?

Edited March 16, 2021 by OswaldBastable

[Chomper Higgot]

50 minutes ago, OswaldBastable said:

I would write that as "the existence of wide spread male violence towards other people is an indisputable fact"

There is clearly more violence directed towards other men than there is towards women, and this is easily deduced from last year's murder numbers in London to the order of 24 dead women, and 126 dead men.

I do resent the notion that violence towards women is in some way worse than violence towards men. Are we not all human beings worthy of the right to live a peaceful and fear free existence?

If you resent the notion that violence towards women is in someway worse than violence towards men, stop making that assumption.

 

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, TKDfella said:

Of course, there is really no comparison since one happened in broad daylight at a confrontation and the other a kidnap and murder.

You noticed that too, eh? Pity that's all been lost on our wokey ones.

There's nowt worse than the fair weather or weekend anarchist.

On second thoughts, yes there is something worse. Two of the blighters.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/15/2021 at 6:18 PM, OswaldBastable said:

Recently retired London art teacher here, not sure where your anti-teacher sentiment is coming from, don't you want your kids to have an education (or read books)?

Almost all my teachers were nasty, bullies or unable to actually teach, and I left school with basically no paper qualifications. Most of my learning was done after I left school.

The only teachers I remember with fondness did fun stuff that had little to do with education.

I did read a lot in my school years but that wasn't down to teachers.

Now back to the OP- perhaps the demonstrators were so uneducated they didn't understand what "banned" means.

[Smithson]

15 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

As a general rule I think it wise to pause and consider if one is going a bit OTT whenever one’s hyperbole gets to the point of evoking references to the Nazis.

No sensible person is saying this is ‘all men’, though a number of men are, for reasons only they know,  acting out as though this as an accusation against all men.

 

The existence of wide spread make violence towards women is an indisputable fact.

For some reason some men get offended by the observation of the fact and doubly offended when women respond to the fact with protest.

Nothing you've written has offended me, quite to the contrary. Maybe I am OTT with the Nazis, however term 'male violence' seems an attempt to blame a group and we have politicians suggesting curfews for this group due to the actions of an individual.

When a woman is violent can we call it female violence? This is a genuine question.

If 'wide spread make (sic) violence towards women is an indisputable fact,' then it's at least as prevalent towards men, this is what the data shows. The world has a problem with violence I agree, but I don't feel an ideological approach will work. Can you point to somewhere where it has?

Australia has been trying to eliminate domestic violence. The program is run along feminist theories.  After 10 years and a billion dollars it's achieved nothing, but anyone who criticizes it is called a misogynist. Seems strange.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Smithson said:

Nothing you've written has offended me, quite to the contrary. Maybe I am OTT with the Nazis, however term 'male violence' seems an attempt to blame a group and we have politicians suggesting curfews for this group due to the actions of an individual.

When a woman is violent can we call it female violence? This is a genuine question.

If 'wide spread make (sic) violence towards women is an indisputable fact,' then it's at least as prevalent towards men, this is what the data shows. The world has a problem with violence I agree, but I don't feel an ideological approach will work. Can you point to somewhere where it has?

Australia has been trying to eliminate domestic violence. The program is run along feminist theories.  After 10 years and a billion dollars it's achieved nothing, but anyone who criticizes it is called a misogynist. Seems strange.

Whenever the charge is made that violence is a male problem I remember the women that used mental violence towards me.

It's worth considering that every man had a mother that ( mostly ) brought them up as children and most teachers nowadays are female, so if women have control of males during their formative years, what are they doing wrong that males continue to treat females badly?

[Smithson]

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's worth considering that every man had a mother that ( mostly ) brought them up as children and most teachers nowadays are female, so if women have control of males during their formative years, what are they doing wrong that males continue to treat females badly?

I've never read that women are doing anything wrong, we're told the problem lies with men or masculinity. The theory seems to be that men tolerate attitudes towards women that encourage violence and that they don't pull their mates up for being misogynist, or something like that. I can't say for sure because I'm not an expert and questions aren't always appreciated.

Men who assault women don't boast about. I don't know what it is that men are supposed to do or specifically what attitudes they have that need to change.

While misogyny may be a factor for violence against women, there are others, poverty, drug/alcohol abuse, mental illness etc. Due to covid, violent crime has soared to it's highest level in a decade in the UK.

[Kwasaki]

33 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

so if women have control of males during their formative years, what are they doing wrong that males continue to treat females badly?

One to consider is some kick the husband out easy to do in UK they go about it with just a change of mind, no physical violence is required.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Smithson said:

Nothing you've written has offended me, quite to the contrary. Maybe I am OTT with the Nazis, however term 'male violence' seems an attempt to blame a group and we have politicians suggesting curfews for this group due to the actions of an individual.

When a woman is violent can we call it female violence? This is a genuine question.

If 'wide spread make (sic) violence towards women is an indisputable fact,' then it's at least as prevalent towards men, this is what the data shows. The world has a problem with violence I agree, but I don't feel an ideological approach will work. Can you point to somewhere where it has?

Australia has been trying to eliminate domestic violence. The program is run along feminist theories.  After 10 years and a billion dollars it's achieved nothing, but anyone who criticizes it is called a misogynist. Seems strange.

Male violence against is violence perpetrated by men.

Moreover, the term ‘male violence’ is void of any suggestion who the victims of male violence are.

To answer your ‘genuine question’ Yes, violence committed by women is indeed ‘Female violence’, feel free to call it that.

Now what’s ‘ideological’ about women campaigning for the Government to do something about male violence towards women? 

Yes, the world does have a problem with violence, the vast majority of which is perpetrated by men.

So what’s the problem dealing with it?

 

As I said in an earlier thread in response to the ‘whatabout the male victims’ argument:

 

On 3/12/2021 at 1:06 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

Addressing male violence benefits all victims of male violence, including the male victims you are so concerned about. Win Win!

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Whenever the charge is made that violence is a male problem I remember the women that used mental violence towards me.

It's worth considering that every man had a mother that ( mostly ) brought them up as children and most teachers nowadays are female, so if women have control of males during their formative years, what are they doing wrong that males continue to treat females badly?

And as some men choose to demonstrate, they grow up with ‘women problems’.

[Chomper Higgot]

35 minutes ago, Smithson said:

I've never read that women are doing anything wrong, we're told the problem lies with men or masculinity. The theory seems to be that men tolerate attitudes towards women that encourage violence and that they don't pull their mates up for being misogynist, or something like that. I can't say for sure because I'm not an expert and questions aren't always appreciated.

Men who assault women don't boast about. I don't know what it is that men are supposed to do or specifically what attitudes they have that need to change.

While misogyny may be a factor for violence against women, there are others, poverty, drug/alcohol abuse, mental illness etc. Due to covid, violent crime has soared to it's highest level in a decade in the UK.

“ I don't know what it is that men are supposed to do or specifically what attitudes they have that need to change.”

As a general rule, don’t say or do anything to a woman without her consent that you would not want a man to say or do to you in a prison shower room.

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 3/16/2021 at 10:24 AM, NanLaew said:

As I said earlier, the organizers of this vigil have a lot to answer for. They held consultations with the Met who advised against it.

You left out the part where after the consultations were over (and after exhausting all legal avenues) the organisers actually cancelled the event, advised their supporters not to attend and recommended that they hold a silent vigil on their own doorsteps instead.

However they had also pointed out to the Met that even if they cancelled it, many people would still try to attend and having a totally disorganised group of people world be much more likely to lead to problems, than would otherwise have been the case.

The organisers had told the Met they would supply one steward for every 30 attendees, stewards who would have been responsible for ensuring social distancing guidelines were adhered to, maintaining good order etc.

The Met would not even offer a response as to whether this was acceptable or what the organisers could do to make it acceptable, they just kept insisting that it was all illegal and if they went ahead, the organisers would be fined up to £320,000.

So as mentioned earlier, the organisers cancelled it. The fact that the scenario they had warned about came to pass is completely on the Met's shoulders, as far as I'm concerned.

It's also noteworthy that Lambeth Police were perfectly happy for the vigil to go ahead in an organised fashion and it was the Met who stepped in and overruled them.

 Vigil organisers "shocked"

[loong]

On 3/16/2021 at 11:21 AM, JonnyF said:

Other illegal protests taking place at the height of Covid were allowed to continue. This one was stopped with OTT violence.

It is inconsistent policing and hence the backlash.

OTT violence??

I have not seen any reports of any injuries sustained by the protesters!

[loong]

20 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Really? Was it also irrelevant that George Floyd murder suspect was a cop? Of course not.

The fact that the suspect is a member of the police is hugely significant. It's always worse when the institution that are supposed to be protecting people are the ones (allegedly) doing the killing. And then when the women hold a vigil and protest about male violence the women are assaulted by male cops. The Met couldn't have got it any more wrong. Especially after pathetically taking the knee in a similar protest a few months back.

Why no such showing of solidarity for these women (allegedly) killed by one of their own? Why the huge disparity between the 2 protests? Just a coincidence?

The George Floyd case is also irrelevant. A drug using criminal died whilst resisting arrest. He died while the police were arresting him. He died while the accused police officer was on duty and in his role as a policeman.

This poor woman was assaulted and killed by a person. The suspect happens to be a policeman. Was the suspect on duty at the time? Was he acting as a representative of the police force at the time? I don't think so! So I maintain that the suspect being a policeman is irrelevant!

[Smithson]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Now what’s ‘ideological’ about women campaigning for the Government to do something about male violence towards women? 

Yes, the world does have a problem with violence, the vast majority of which is perpetrated by men.

So what’s the problem dealing with it?

It's difficult to say whether the campaigning is ideological, as I don't know what the women want the government to do. The only suggestion I heard was a curfew for men and 'fark the police'. Like many things these days, it seems to be about blame - first  men and then police, as the perp was one.

Men being the majority of perps has been mentioned more times than possible solutions. I agree, they are the majority. What's next?

There is no problem with dealing violence, it's a great idea. A simple start would be controlling the arms trade, which I think is a big industry in the UK, but not as big as Sweden. Doing this would save many lives. I'd be interested in other suggestions.

Quote

 

“ I don't know what it is that men are supposed to do or specifically what attitudes they have that need to change.”

As a general rule, don’t say or do anything to a woman without her consent that you would not want a man to say or do to you in a prison shower room.

 

How does a woman consent to have certain things said to her, without knowing what those things are? How do you get someone's consent to say something to them? Do you have to specify what it is without saying it? Sounds like hard work.

I've never spent time thinking about what I would want done or said to me in a prison shower room. It's a bizarre idea.

[OswaldBastable]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

As a general rule, don’t say or do anything to a woman without her consent that you would not want a man to say or do to you in a prison shower room.

I'd prefer not to share a shower with another man, let alone have a conversation with him while both naked.

Consent is also a problem, as consent reported after the event, may not be the same as consent leading up to or during the event. You'd need camera's recording video and audio in the shower with you both to be sure. 

But 'consent' is a bit of a deflection in this thread as I'm certain everyone agrees the unfortunate victim was unlikely to have consented to being abducted and murdered.

Edited March 17, 2021 by OswaldBastable

[jak2002003]

7 minutes ago, OswaldBastable said:

I'd prefer not to share a shower with another man, let alone have a conversation with him while both naked.

Consent is also a problem, as consent reported after the event, may not be the same as consent leading up to or during the event. You'd need camera's recording video and audio in the shower with you both to be sure. 

You have never showered with other men or spoke to them while naked?

 

Did you never play sports at school or college or go to a public swimming pool?

 

 

[OswaldBastable]

Just now, jak2002003 said:

You have never showered with other men or spoke to them while naked?

Did you never play sports at school or college or go to a public swimming pool?

i always avoided team sports where men get naked together,  I've never been anywhere the swimming pools didn't have individual changing rooms. But if you enjoy it, I won't judge you for your choices.

[jak2002003]

1 hour ago, OswaldBastable said:

i always avoided team sports where men get naked together,  I've never been anywhere the swimming pools didn't have individual changing rooms. But if you enjoy it, I won't judge you for your choices.

Maybe you are just a little insecure about your body image?

 

Does not seem a normal reaction to be that fearful that you activity avoided team sports and situations that you might be in the same room as other men with no clothes on because your scared of unwanted sexual advances.  

 

You must be a very sexy guy if other straight men won't be able to resist you in the showers after a football match. 

 

Anyway, to stay on topic... It's a fact then MEN are at more danger of being violently attacked by other men that women are. So why is this just making out women are the sole victims of men's violence? Seems to be some women have a sexist attitude against men and want to push that agenda. 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by jak2002003

[Sujo]

28 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Maybe you are just a little insecure about your body image?

 

Does not seem a normal reaction to be that fearful that you activity avoided team sports and situations that you might be in the same room as other men with no clothes on because your scared of unwanted sexual advances.  

 

You must be a very sexy guy if other straight men won't be able to resist you in the showers after a football match. 

 

Anyway, to stay on topic... It's a fact then MEN are at more danger of being violently attacked by other men that women are. So why is this just making out women are the sole victims of men's violence? Seems to be some women have a sexist attitude against men and want to push that agenda. 

 

 

Women are usually sexually assaulted by men.

Men not so much.

[Smithson]

11 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Women are usually sexually assaulted by men.

Men not so much.

America seems to be a country where more men are raped than women

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

Women sexually assaulting men is a problem that receives little attention:

"In 2010, the largest survey of its type in the world – the US Centre for Disease Control's National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey – found that the rates of men being forced to penetrate women over the previous year were identical to the rates of women reporting being raped: 1.1%. Lifetime prevalence of the crimes were 4.8% for men and 17.8% for women. Meanwhile, men reporting sex through coercion was 1.5% over the past year (6% lifetime) compared with 2% (13% lifetime) for women."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/breaking-wall-secrecy-sexual-abuse-men-women

Both articles are from feminist friendly The Guardian.

[Sujo]

26 minutes ago, Smithson said:

America seems to be a country where more men are raped than women

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women

Women sexually assaulting men is a problem that receives little attention:

"In 2010, the largest survey of its type in the world – the US Centre for Disease Control's National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey – found that the rates of men being forced to penetrate women over the previous year were identical to the rates of women reporting being raped: 1.1%. Lifetime prevalence of the crimes were 4.8% for men and 17.8% for women. Meanwhile, men reporting sex through coercion was 1.5% over the past year (6% lifetime) compared with 2% (13% lifetime) for women."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/breaking-wall-secrecy-sexual-abuse-men-women

Both articles are from feminist friendly The Guardian.

You quote about prisons and use that as a defence. Really?

[Smithson]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

You quote about prisons and use that as a defence. Really?

I'm not defending anything. What prisons don't count as people?

[chickenslegs]

10 minutes ago, Sujo said:

You quote about prisons and use that as a defence. Really?

The survey is not about prisons. Did you misread it?