Trudeau condemns Canadian's trial held behind closed doors in China

[rooster59]

By Martin Quin Pollard and Steve Scherer

Foreign diplomats wait outside the Intermediate People's Court where Michael Spavor, a Canadian detained by China in December 2018 on suspicion of espionage, is expected to stand trial, in Dandong, Liaoning province, China March 19, 2021. REUTERS/Carlos Garcia Rawlins

DANDONG, China/OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Friday criticized China for blocking access to the trial of Michael Spavor, a Canadian detained by Beijing since late 2018 on spying charges, a case that is part of a wider diplomatic spat between Washington and Beijing.

Spavor and his lawyer appeared at a hearing on Friday and the court will later set a date to issue a verdict, the Dandong Intermediate People's Court said in a statement on its website.

China arrested Spavor and fellow Canadian Michael Kovrig in December 2018, soon after Canadian police detained Meng Wanzhou, the chief financial officer of Chinese tech company Huawei Technologies, on a U.S. warrant.

Canadian and other diplomats were not allowed to attend the trial on what China said were national security grounds, according to a Canadian envoy. Chinese courts have a conviction rate of over 99%. Kovrig, a former diplomat, is due to go on trial on Monday in Beijing.

"It is disappointing that the trial Michael Spavor went through - and possibly the trial Michael Kovrig will go through on Monday - is happening in secret without transparency, without access by Canadian consular officials," Trudeau told reporters. The lack of transparency was "completely unacceptable," he said.

"Our top priority remains securing their release," Trudeau added at an Ottawa news conference.

Spavor, a 45-year-old Canadian businessman, was not seen outside the court and there was no word on his condition.

Beijing insists the detentions are not linked to the arrest of Meng, who remains under house arrest in Vancouver as she fights extradition to the United States.

Police set up a cordon on Friday morning outside the court, which sits along the Yalu River opposite North Korea, the isolated country that Spavor regularly visited in his business career.

Officials from the Canadian embassy and other nations including United States, Netherlands, United Kingdom, France, Denmark, Australia, Sweden and Germany were present outside the court as they sought access to the hearing. They were not allowed to enter.

Jim Nickel, charge d'affaires at the Canadian embassy in China who spoke outside the Dandong courthouse, said Canadian officials last saw Spavor on Feb. 3 and had made multiple requests to see him ahead of the trial, but those requests were denied.

"The reason that has been given is it's a so-called national security case and their belief is that the domestic law overrides international law, which in fact is not the case. China does have international obligations to allow consular access," Nickel said.

Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian said cases involving state secrets are not open to the public.

TRIAL COINCIDES WITH U.S.-CHINA TALKS

Observers have said the likely convictions of the two men could ultimately facilitate a diplomatic agreement whereby they are released and sent back to Canada.

The trial dates were announced by Canada just as the United States and China were preparing for high-level in-person talks in Alaska, the first since U.S. President Joe Biden took office, which proved on Thursday to be contentious.

While China on Thursday denied a link to those talks, Trudeau said he was "very confident" that the United States would raise the detention of the two Canadians at the summit, which wraps up on Friday https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2BB216.

"Ultimately, the United States has to be willing to impose a serious price on China for their continued detention of the two Michaels, or they might not be released," said Roland Paris, Trudeau's former foreign policy adviser and professor of international affairs at University of Ottawa.

In a statement, Spavor's family called for the unconditional release of both men.

"He loved living and working in China and would never have done anything to offend the interests of China or the Chinese people," the statement said, adding that he was trying to build constructive ties between Canada, China and North Korea.

(Reporting by Martin Quin Pollard in Dandong, Steve Scherer and David Ljunggren in Ottawa; Additional reporting by Cate Cadell in Beijing; Writing by Tony Munroe; Editing by Michael Perry, Lincoln Feast and Grant McCool)

-- © Copyright Reuters 2021-03-20

 

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[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.  The topic is about Michael Spavor, a Canadian detained by Beijing since late 2018 on spying charges.   Please stay on topic.  

[Pedrogaz]

Just when will the "Five Eyes" stop spying on China?

One cannot complain about China spying on the West when the west spies on China.

Nobody in this forum knows whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty. They presume their inocence because of racist anti-Chine bias which has been generated by a coordinated anti-China campaign over the past 4 years. 

Countries have their own customs and rules with regard to trials. If you don't agree with China's laws then either don't break them or don't go there.

[Surelynot]

5 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

Just when will the "Five Eyes" stop spying on China?

One cannot complain about China spying on the West when the west spies on China.

Nobody in this forum knows whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty. They presume their inocence because of racist anti-Chine bias which has been generated by a coordinated anti-China campaign over the past 4 years. 

Countries have their own customs and rules with regard to trials. If you don't agree with China's laws then either don't break them or don't go there.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

China and it's treatment of minorities by race and religion is horrendous, combine this with the treatment of it's own dissidents, HK, threats to Taiwan and expansion into the South China seas......all adds up to being a rogue nation that needs to be reined in........the scary thing now is that it too big and too strong for any control to be exacted.

[ctxa]

6 minutes ago, Pedrogaz said:

Countries have their own customs and rules with regard to trials. If you don't agree with China's laws then either don't break them or don't go there

This is a very good point. 
 

Combined with the fact that Chinese authorities tend to turn a blind eye on foreigners breaking certain laws. 
 

But of course when you break a law and they turn a blind eye on it, at some point they may stop turning a blind eye on it and start caring. 
 

Example: When I first got into China many years ago, the traffic police caught me driving without a valid Chinese driving license. The law says that in this case they have to fine you and put you in administrative detention of no more than 15 days. Guess what? The cop let me go with just advice on how to convert my DL into a Chinese one….. Try it again, and depending on the situation they may actually detain you. 
 

Chinese laws are often arbitrarily enforced, but that shouldn’t mean you can break them. And if you break them, be prepared to at some point pay the consequences of it. 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, ctxa said:

This is a very good point. 
 

Combined with the fact that Chinese authorities tend to turn a blind eye on foreigners breaking certain laws. 
 

But of course when you break a law and they turn a blind eye on it, at some point they may stop turning a blind eye on it and start caring. 
 

Example: When I first got into China many years ago, the traffic police caught me driving without a valid Chinese driving license. The law says that in this case they have to fine you and put you in administrative detention of no more than 15 days. Guess what? The cop let me go with just advice on how to convert my DL into a Chinese one….. Try it again, and depending on the situation they may actually detain you. 
 

Chinese laws are often arbitrarily enforced, but that shouldn’t mean you can break them. And if you break them, be prepared to at some point pay the consequences of it. 

The thing is, in China there is no independent judiciary. If the government wants you convicted and locked up, you will be convicted and locked up.  

[Surelynot]

4 minutes ago, ctxa said:

Chinese laws are often arbitrarily enforced

Now......of where does that remind me?

[ctxa]

Just now, Surelynot said:

Now......of where does that remind me?

Thailand? ????

[car720]

1 hour ago, Pedrogaz said:

Just when will the "Five Eyes" stop spying on China?

One cannot complain about China spying on the West when the west spies on China.

Nobody in this forum knows whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty. They presume their inocence because of racist anti-Chine bias which has been generated by a coordinated anti-China campaign over the past 4 years. 

Countries have their own customs and rules with regard to trials. If you don't agree with China's laws then either don't break them or don't go there.

Whoa up.  If you have lived there then you will know that this is the way the Chinese see things.  Typical tit for tat.  You take mine hostage (regardless of international law, which, believe it or not they just cannot relate to) and I will take yours hostage. You give me mine and I will give you yours.  This is the way it has been for thousands of years and change doesn't come easily in China.  Good people, bad government.

[car720]

1 hour ago, ctxa said:

Example: When I first got into China many years ago, the traffic police caught me driving without a valid Chinese driving license. The law says that in this case they have to fine you and put you in administrative detention of no more than 15 days. Guess what? The cop let me go with just advice on how to convert my DL into a Chinese one….. Try it again, and depending on the situation they may actually detain you. 

I showed an old out of date international licence but it had Chinese writing on the front page and they thought it was wonderful that a laowei had a licence. 

[ctxa]

1 hour ago, car720 said:

Whoa up.  If you have lived there then you will know that this is the way the Chinese see things.  Typical tit for tat.  You take mine hostage (regardless of international law, which, believe it or not they just cannot relate to) and I will take yours hostage. You give me mine and I will give you yours.  This is the way it has been for thousands of years and change doesn't come easily in China.  Good people, bad government.

Yes, I agree. 

But also believing that they took hostage some random innocent Canadian guy who never harmed a fly is equally naive. I know several Canadians in Shenzhen, who mainly work as English teachers, and they have had 0 issues, nada. 

I believe, the authorities knew very well since a long time ago about what those two Canadians were doing, and until then decided to turn a blind eye on them. The moment Canada took Meng hostage however, they suddenly decided to enforce whatever law they were breaking and take those two Canadians hostages. Still, this is not say that they are innocent or that they didn't break any laws. It's just that had Canada not taken Meng hostage, those two would probably still be roaming free... 

Edited March 20, 2021 by ctxa

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, ctxa said:

Yes, I agree. 

But also believing that they took hostage some random innocent Canadian guy who never harmed a fly is equally naive. I know several Canadians in Shenzhen, who mainly work as English teachers, and they have had 0 issues, nada. 

I believe, the authorities knew very well since a long time ago about what those two Canadians were doing, and until then decided to turn a blind eye on them. The moment Canada took Meng hostage however, they suddenly decided to enforce whatever law they were breaking and take those two Canadians hostages. Still, this is not say that they are innocent or that they didn't break any laws. It's just that had Canada not taken Meng hostage, those two would probably still be roaming free... 

And that's a very reasonable belief considering how transparent and open the Chinese justice system is?

[from the home of CC]

they must of had some fear of  using American hostages in retaliation of the huawei debacle. I guess they figured we don't have any means of doing anything so Canada became the low hanging fruit. Trudeau has a lot of nerve though considering all the corrupt 'behind closed door' decision making concerning Canadians...

[wwest5829]

4 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

Just when will the "Five Eyes" stop spying on China?

One cannot complain about China spying on the West when the west spies on China.

Nobody in this forum knows whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty. They presume their inocence because of racist anti-Chine bias which has been generated by a coordinated anti-China campaign over the past 4 years. 

Countries have their own customs and rules with regard to trials. If you don't agree with China's laws then either don't break them or don't go there.

True, our American legal position is quite different from The Peoples Republic of China as we hold that a person is to be assumed innocent until proven guilty in a public court. Of course these cases are different as they involve accusations of espionage. So, in this case, International Law comes into play. Under International Law, a person is to have access to their country’s diplomatic representation (just as the Huawei accused person is able to do in Canada currently. This is not the only current instance where China is purposely ignoring international law. The PRC has great difficulty in submitting to agreements and expectations as an equal member of the international community. Yes, absolutely, we can see examples of other countries doing this in the past but here we need to stay on topic. The topic here is not spying but legal rights of individual foreigners in any foreign nation which has signed international agreements.

[mikebike]

4 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Now......of where does that remind me?

USA?

[Aomelia]

6 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

Just when will the "Five Eyes" stop spying on China?

One cannot complain about China spying on the West when the west spies on China.

Nobody in this forum knows whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty. They presume their inocence because of racist anti-Chine bias which has been generated by a coordinated anti-China campaign over the past 4 years. 

Countries have their own customs and rules with regard to trials. If you don't agree with China's laws then either don't break them or don't go there.

Does  China need apologist 

[mistral53]

2 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

which has signed international agreements.

mmhhhhh.........ask any Iranian about who they think is not abiding by international agreements - ohhhh wait, I got it - that does not apply to us!

 

[wwest5829]

46 minutes ago, mistral53 said:

mmhhhhh.........ask any Iranian about who they think is not abiding by international agreements - ohhhh wait, I got it - that does not apply to us!

 

Sorry, did I not note that there have been other examples of nations disregarding? I do not laud the USA as without fault. That does not diminish my agreeing with others in the international community that the PRC is currently violating ... Each case needs to be judged on its merits and condemned where wrong.

Edited March 20, 2021 by wwest5829

[mr mr]

ya and trudeau is mr squeaky clean to begin with. please. 

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, mistral53 said:

mmhhhhh.........ask any Iranian about who they think is not abiding by international agreements - ohhhh wait, I got it - that does not apply to us!

 

Actually, the US did have the right to withdraw from the agreement. I t'm not claiming it was a smart thing to do, but there was no violation.

[mvdf]

Then STOP kowtowing to these world-police-wannabe Americans if you want your own back!

[Libai]

One cannot complain about China spying on the West when the west spies on China.

Nobody in this forum knows whether these particular guys are innocent or guilty. They presume their inocence because of racist anti-Chine bias which has been generated by a coordinated anti-China campaign over the past 4 years. 

 

I have lived in China for a number of years and have seen first hand how badly minorities are treated. One only has to look at the dastardly treatment towards the Uighur and others.  Look towards the South China Sea and witness the fact that China has stolen the entire area from neighbouring countries, then the scrapping of existing treaties with Hong Kong, the daily threats of war towards Taiwan and please note that China now has the largest navel force in the world.  China does not care for the rights of anything or anybody other than what is in it for China. 

They are never wrong.  So be very careful of this powerful giant.

[Surelynot]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:05 AM, Pedrogaz said:

Countries have their own customs and rules with regard to trials.

Like fabricating evidence, allowing torture and passing totally disproportionate sentences..........you are right don't go there.

[polpott]

On 3/20/2021 at 8:51 AM, car720 said:

Whoa up.  If you have lived there then you will know that this is the way the Chinese see things.  Typical tit for tat.  You take mine hostage (regardless of international law, which, believe it or not they just cannot relate to) and I will take yours hostage. You give me mine and I will give you yours.  This is the way it has been for thousands of years and change doesn't come easily in China.  Good people, bad government.

Exactly. Trudeau should be asked about Meng Wanzhou, Huawei executive and daughter of its founder, who has been held under house arrest in Canada for over a year after receiving an extradition request from the US on totally Trumped up charges. A purely political act.