Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Neeranam]

On 8/21/2023 at 8:17 PM, XGM said:

I wonder what she'd say if you explained the original nationality was of course renounced "in line with the act"

I've said before that it is illegal for me to show my former Passport in Thailand. 

[Arkady]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I have 2 middle names and not experienced any problems, apart from people calling my the first 3 names without the surname, even when reading my ID card.

 

I have been taking quite a few domestic flights recently and one thing that irritates me slightly is that the security people always take an inordinately long time scrutinising my ID card and comparing the name on the boarding card, even though I always book using my middle names to match my ID card.  It can't be because they have to read the English because the boarding cards are all in English and they are capable of reading English versions of long Thai names and comparing with the boarding pass in a fraction of the time they spend staring at mine. I can only assume they are thinking, "Cripes. Never seen one of these before. It might be a fake ID card which could get me into trouble, if I let it through."  Meanwhile, Chinese businessmen with fake Thai ID cards probably just glide past them.

[Neeranam]

15 hours ago, Arkady said:

I have been taking quite a few domestic flights recently and one thing that irritates me slightly is that the security people always take an inordinately long time scrutinising my ID card and comparing the name on the boarding card, even though I always book using my middle names to match my ID card.  It can't be because they have to read the English because the boarding cards are all in English and they are capable of reading English versions of long Thai names and comparing with the boarding pass in a fraction of the time they spend staring at mine. I can only assume they are thinking, "Cripes. Never seen one of these before. It might be a fake ID card which could get me into trouble, if I let it through."  Meanwhile, Chinese businessmen with fake Thai ID cards probably just glide past them.

Indeed, I had an interesting trip from Bangkok to Khon Kaen as the proud new owner of a Thai ID card. The Air Asia boarding people consulted each other about this farang passenger. Worse was on the plane -  it was during covid and everyone was wearing a mask. The flight attendant, who was also at boarding, demonstrated the safety procedures in Thai. The she came up to me and started telling me in English. This is downright discrimination. I said in Thai that I had just listened to her. She said that by law she had to tell any foreign passenger in English. I whipped out my ID and said it a slightly raise voice that I was not a foreigner. Not a good start on my Thai citizen journey.

[sas_cars]

5 hours ago, transam said:

But you are a foreigner to them............

Yes. I think it's time for all newly minted thais to accept that they will always be foreigner in eyes of thai people, albeit with a Thai ID Card. So just accept this fact and move on with your daily lives. There are a significant minority of Thai Indians, born and bred in Thailand since last many generations but they are still be considered Indians, with a thai ID card.

[DrJoy]

@Arkady Unnecessary post dealing with racism and absolute non sense. 

Please take care of them.

 

Thanks

[qualtrough]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:53 AM, sas_cars said:

Yes. I think it's time for all newly minted thais to accept that they will always be foreigner in eyes of thai people, albeit with a Thai ID Card. So just accept this fact and move on with your daily lives. There are a significant minority of Thai Indians, born and bred in Thailand since last many generations but they are still be considered Indians, with a thai ID card.

I see this point raised all the time and to me it is a non-issue. Thai is an ethnicity, so while non-Thais can become citizens it is silly to expect Thais to consider someone Thai if they are European/African, etc. This is akin to a white person in Kenya getting upset because Kenyans didn't regard him/her as belonging to one of the tribes that compose that country. Most of those same Kenyans would probably have no issue with that person being a citizen of Kenya, other than those who might object on colonial history grounds.

 

I am quite content to be a farang with Thai citizenship, and I have yet to meet any Thai official or private citizen who has expressed any negative opinion, or acted in such a way. Most people who encounter me using my Thai ID card act like it is the most normal thing in the world, and those who comment express a combination of surprise/novelty/admiration. In fact,  my biggest surprise is how much of a non-deal it is to most of the people I encounter who are aware of my new citizenship. Now, are there Thais who might have a problem with it? Undoubtedly. But you will find people like that in every country, including the USA.  Who cares what they think?

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, qualtrough said:

I see this point raised all the time and to me it is a non-issue. Thai is an ethnicity, so while non-Thais can become citizens it is silly to expect Thais to consider someone Thai if they are European/African, etc. This is akin to a white person in Kenya getting upset because Kenyans didn't regard him/her as belonging to one of the tribes that compose that country. Most of those same Kenyans would probably have no issue with that person being a citizen of Kenya, other than those who might object on colonial history grounds.

 

I am quite content to be a farang with Thai citizenship, and I have yet to meet any Thai official or private citizen who has expressed any negative opinion, or acted in such a way. Most people who encounter me using my Thai ID card act like it is the most normal thing in the world, and those who comment express a combination of surprise/novelty/admiration. In fact,  my biggest surprise is how much of a non-deal it is to most of the people I encounter who are aware of my new citizenship. Now, are there Thais who might have a problem with it? Undoubtedly. But you will find people like that in every country, including the USA.  Who cares what they think?

You are right.  There is no point in getting hot under the collar about this issue, unless something is denying your right to do something like buy land. My brother is a naturalized American, who has lived in the US for over 30 years and worked for the government.  He says that Americans sometimes tell him he has no right to express an opinion on things like politics because he is not a real American. I guess you get these attitudes towards naturalized citizens all over, even in the land of the free that is founded on immigration and relieving the indigenous population of their land and way of life.

[FritsSikkink]

On 5/19/2007 at 1:34 PM, naka said:

I just see it how I read it.

Obviously someone from a poor nation would be more likely

to want Thai citizenship than someone from a rich country.

Disagree ... Then Do Tell.

Naka.

A German friend of mine is in the process, not really from a poor nation.

[onthemoon]

13 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

A German friend of mine is in the process, not really from a poor nation.

It is also much easier for a Thai to get German citizenship than for a German to get Thai citizenship.

[Arkady]

47 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

It is also much easier for a Thai to get German citizenship than for a German to get Thai citizenship.

I noticed someone replied to a post from 2007 on this issue of why would someone from a developed country apply for Thai citizenship. This is a fairly pointless discussion as it is pretty obvious that being a citizen of a country to which you have immigrated and intend to remain has many advantages, such as remaining indefinitely without immigration or WP hassles, owning your own business, owning your own land etc.

 

I wouldn't say it's much easier for a Thai to get German citizenship than vice versa. I have the impression that German citizenship has traditionally been one of the most difficult in Europe to obtain and they will rarely allow naturalised citizens to retain their original nationality. Even the UK that was traditionally relatively easy has introduced a notoriously hard Life in Britain exam for Indefinite Leave to Remain which you have to obtain to be eligible for citizenship.

 

In reality getting Thai citizenship is not that difficult for males working in Thailand but there is a lot of false mythology about how difficult it is and that you must have connections, Thai children, pay or bribe and such like.  Mainly it just takes time and a lot of patience but everyone who is qualified normally gets it in the end.

[onthemoon]

4 minutes ago, Arkady said:

1.) I wouldn't say it's much easier for a Thai to get German citizenship than vice versa. I have the impression that German citizenship has traditionally been one of the most difficult in Europe to obtain and they will rarely allow naturalised citizens to retain their original nationality.

 

2.) In reality getting Thai citizenship is not that difficult for males working in Thailand but there is a lot of false mythology about how difficult it is and that you must have connections, Thai children, pay or bribe and such like.  Mainly it just takes time and a lot of patience but everyone who is qualified normally gets it in the end.

1. You need to stay in Germany for 7 years consecutively on any visa and pass a basic language test and have some basic knowledge about the country (like we have this test at SB). They want to reduce this to 5 years now, at least if you are married. I know a number of Thai people who have German citizenship.

 

2.) It is a myriad of papers that have to be handed in if you want to become a Thai citizen. The list will have been posted here several times and is probably available on the SB website as well. You have to have paid at least so much in taxes, hand in your company's documents (too bad if you don't work), have made donations to "prove" that you are a good citizen, and it takes many many years. I'm sorry, it simply does not compare. You must be really committed if you want to become a Thai citizen. Which I am. I'm just saying it is not easy.

[Arkady]

26 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

1. You need to stay in Germany for 7 years consecutively on any visa and pass a basic language test and have some basic knowledge about the country (like we have this test at SB). They want to reduce this to 5 years now, at least if you are married. I know a number of Thai people who have German citizenship.

 

2.) It is a myriad of papers that have to be handed in if you want to become a Thai citizen. The list will have been posted here several times and is probably available on the SB website as well. You have to have paid at least so much in taxes, hand in your company's documents (too bad if you don't work), have made donations to "prove" that you are a good citizen, and it takes many many years. I'm sorry, it simply does not compare. You must be really committed if you want to become a Thai citizen. Which I am. I'm just saying it is not easy.

The bureaucratic requirements for documentation are a bit irksome in Thailand and it takes a long time but his is true of many countries. My brother complained about the long wait for US citizenship and he had to have a green card first. They held on to his passport for some  time while he was applying for citizenship, so he couldn't go on business trips without going through some rigmarole to get it back. They also held up his citizenship because a judge with a heavy foreign accent complained that he had shown no documentary evidence that he was fluent in English, despite being UK citizen and having graduated from British school and university.

 

Germany has got easier but still harder than most other European countries and has the requirement to surrender non-EU citizenship which is no longer common in Europe. I was born in Germany at a time when most countries, including the UK and Thailand, gave citizenship automatically to anyone born there but Germany never did that. It might have been nice to have an EU passport post-Brexit.

[GarryP]

It is in the news that Anutin Charnvirakun will be the new Interior Minister. Hope this doesn't negatively impact current applications, but he is viewed as a racist person, particularly against Westerners. 

[DrJoy]

46 minutes ago, GarryP said:

It is in the news that Anutin Charnvirakun will be the new Interior Minister. Hope this doesn't negatively impact current applications, but he is viewed as a racist person, particularly against Westerners. 

Hope for the best

[Arkady]

On 8/28/2023 at 7:07 PM, GarryP said:

It is in the news that Anutin Charnvirakun will be the new Interior Minister. Hope this doesn't negatively impact current applications, but he is viewed as a racist person, particularly against Westerners. 

Let's hope for the best, as Jay says.  Anutin's father, Chaovarat, was interior minister from 2008 to 2011, as a proxy for Anutin who was banned at the time. However, the BJP was still absolutely controlled by Newin (also banned at the time), who had done the deal with the military to have Abhisit take over as PM from Thaksin's brother-in-law. Chaovorat was a very nice man, well disposed towards farangs whom I had the privilege to play golf with once. However, there were not many approvals on his watch and there were allegations that he was not allowed to sign anything, including citizen approvals without Newin's permission. Even thought Newin is still regarded as the ultimate owner of BJP, Anutin is not beholden to him in the way his father was in those days, so things could go in any direction.

 

We should also bear in mind that the new ministerial regulations (the first update since 1967) that were ordered in a cabinet resolution in around January 2022 never got published in the RG under the Prayut administration for reasons unknown, as it was announced they were ready in December 2022. The new minister could order them to be revamped, published as is or continue to leave them on ice.

[jayboy]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:17 PM, qualtrough said:

This is akin to a white person in Kenya getting upset because Kenyans didn't regard him/her as belonging to one of the tribes that compose that country.

It's not quite akin.Kenyans are comprised of many tribes but all - stretching a point - have an origin within the country.Despite the propaganda Thailand is by no means ethnically homogeneous and is made up of different "tribes" many with origins elsewhere, some having more influence than others.One tribe dominating many sectors of national and commercial life by and large pitched up in Thailand as relatively recent immigrants.Of course the authorities here over the last century have successfully built up the image of one big Thai family (I'm not knocking this - it's an important achievement)

 

I've known several farang who have obtained Thai citizenship.None found it particularly difficult, just a bit of a slog.As to whether they are regarded as fully Thai, my hunch is that they are.They wouldn't have made it to citizenship if they weren't fully integrated.

 

America is different because the US is a nation of immigrants.

[onthemoon]

12 hours ago, Arkady said:

Let's hope for the best, as Jay says.  Anutin's father, Chaovarat, was interior minister from 2008 to 2011, as a proxy for Anutin who was banned at the time. However, the BJP was still absolutely controlled by Newin (also banned at the time), who had done the deal with the military to have Abhisit take over as PM from Thaksin's brother-in-law. Chaovorat was a very nice man, well disposed towards farangs whom I had the privilege to play golf with once. However, there were not many approvals on his watch and there were allegations that he was not allowed to sign anything, including citizen approvals without Newin's permission. Even thought Newin is still regarded as the ultimate owner of BJP, Anutin is not beholden to him in the way his father was in those days, so things could go in any direction.

 

We should also bear in mind that the new ministerial regulations (the first update since 1967) that were ordered in a cabinet resolution in around January 2022 never got published in the RG under the Prayut administration for reasons unknown, as it was announced they were ready in December 2022. The new minister could order them to be revamped, published as is or continue to leave them on ice.

I am always amazed by your in-depth knowledge and find it very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

Would you know any details about the new ministerial regulations? I am aware that they have not become valid, as they were never published in the RG, but it will show us what direction the line of thought was last year.

[onthemoon]

42 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I've known several farang who have obtained Thai citizenship.None found it particularly difficult, just a bit of a slog.As to whether they are regarded as fully Thai, my hunch is that they are.They wouldn't have made it to citizenship if they weren't fully integrated.

I have heard people say (in Thai), "I am not a farang with a Thai passport, I am a Thai with a farang face". ???? I liked that.

[FruitPudding]

On 8/23/2023 at 12:24 PM, Neeranam said:

I've said before that it is illegal for me to show my former Passport in Thailand. 

Thais can't have dual nationality?

[FruitPudding]

12 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

I have heard people say (in Thai), "I am not a farang with a Thai passport, I am a Thai with a farang face". ???? I liked that.

I don't think Thai people will ever truly accept a farang that obtained citizenship as truly Thai.

 

Most of them don't even accept leuk krung as truly Thai.

Edited September 2, 2023 by FruitPudding

[onthemoon]

7 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

I don't think Thai people will ever truly accept a farang that obtained citizenship as truly Thai.

 

Most of them don't even accept leuk krung as truly Thai.

I don't know about most Thais. How big was the sample size you surveyed?

 

The Thais I know tell their friends when they first introduce me that I am Thai. Some are surprised that I don't have Thai nationality yet. YMMV.

[onthemoon]

20 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

Thais can't have dual nationality?

I know Thais with dual nationality. However, when you naturalise as a Thai, you cannot use your other passport in Thailand anymore. In fact, you have to have the intent to give our original nationality up once you become a Thai citizen.

Edited September 2, 2023 by onthemoon

[FruitPudding]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:17 PM, qualtrough said:

I see this point raised all the time and to me it is a non-issue. Thai is an ethnicity, so while non-Thais can become citizens it is silly to expect Thais to consider someone Thai if they are European/African, etc

It's also a nationality and if you have that nationality, you are Thai.

 

Ethnicity is cultural characteristics/norms that we live by - and according to my sociology professor - ethnicity can actually change.

 

Anyone ever been called Farang-Laos by a Thai person before? ???? ???? 

 

I've met Asians who left Asia in their 20s to go West and by the time they were 60 you'd never know they even came from Asia. Ethnically, they were clearly Westernized, virtually 100%

 

And if you integrated in your teen years, you can be 100% ethically changed. I've seen this with Thai kids going West.

 

There is also a very old Sikh Thai community who are ethnically more similar to people in India, despite being born and raised here.

 

Culturally (ethically), they are as much Thai as a foreigner.

 

And don't get me started on Isaan people whose ethnicity is more Laos than Thai and southern Thais whose ethnicity is closer to Malay.

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by FruitPudding

[FruitPudding]

15 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

I don't know about most Thais. How big was the sample size you surveyed?

Well, over a decade I've noticed most Thais I've interacted with considered my mixed race child as "farang noi" or "luek krueng" not actually Thai.

 

They are bemused by this concept and don't accept it based on one western parent. That's their logic.

 

Only the high class, well-educated folks seem to understand otherwise, or maybe they are just being polite.

[onthemoon]

1 hour ago, FruitPudding said:

Well, over a decade I've noticed most Thais I've interacted with considered my mixed race child as "farang noi" or "luek krueng" not actually Thai.

 

They are bemused by this concept and don't accept it based on one western parent. That's their logic.

 

Only the high class, well-educated folks seem to understand otherwise, or maybe they are just being polite.

I do not doubt that this is your experience. As I said, YMMV.

[advancebooking]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:17 PM, qualtrough said:

I see this point raised all the time and to me it is a non-issue. Thai is an ethnicity, so while non-Thais can become citizens it is silly to expect Thais to consider someone Thai if they are European/African, etc. This is akin to a white person in Kenya getting upset because Kenyans didn't regard him/her as belonging to one of the tribes that compose that country. Most of those same Kenyans would probably have no issue with that person being a citizen of Kenya, other than those who might object on colonial history grounds.

 

I am quite content to be a farang with Thai citizenship, and I have yet to meet any Thai official or private citizen who has expressed any negative opinion, or acted in such a way. Most people who encounter me using my Thai ID card act like it is the most normal thing in the world, and those who comment express a combination of surprise/novelty/admiration. In fact,  my biggest surprise is how much of a non-deal it is to most of the people I encounter who are aware of my new citizenship. Now, are there Thais who might have a problem with it? Undoubtedly. But you will find people like that in every country, including the USA.  Who cares what they think?

What about at the land office. Have you used it there?

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

I don't know about most Thais. How big was the sample size you surveyed?

 

The Thais I know tell their friends when they first introduce me that I am Thai. Some are surprised that I don't have Thai nationality yet. YMMV.

Don't feed the trolls. 

 

[GarryP]

16 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

I do not doubt that this is your experience. As I said, YMMV.

I don't think I ever encountered this with my son either. He doesn't even think of himself as luk kreung, let alone other people.   

[FruitPudding]

21 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Don't feed the trolls. 

 

How am I a troll?

[FruitPudding]

29 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I don't think I ever encountered this with my son either. He doesn't even think of himself as luk kreung, let alone other people.   

I guess it depends which milieu you are socializing in.

 

If living in a cosmopolitan place, it probably won't be your experience. 

 

At international schools or top tier Thai schools it probably won't be your experience either.

 

We have not experienced it in a cosmopolitan place or in a top tier Thai school, but pretty much everywhere else in the country, yes, unfortunately, it has been our experience. And we spent many years living up country.

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by FruitPudding