American motorcyclist killed in head on collision in Phrae

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, whaleboneman said:

How did you get your braking times? Are they from testing motorcycles on curves? And in my opinion, the only way to avoid this accident would have been heading left and laying the bike down.

 

There’s lots of info out there...  

 

And example: https://www.motorcycletesttips.uk/motorcycle-theory-test/motorcycle-stopping-distances/

 

I haven’t seen anything on a curve....  braking distances will vary significantly from the tires, tire pressures, quality of brakes, quality of road surface, size of bike (and tires) etc....  So stopping distances themselves ‘could’ be highly debated if we wanted to go down that road. 

 

The key issue for me not the actual stopping or breaking distance but the ‘thinking’ or ‘reaction’ distance... 

 

NanLeaw states the thinking / reaction distance is 42m when travelling at 100kmh. 

Other data below (from the link above) shows the thinking distance is less at 100km, closer to 20m (18m at 96kmh) - This will of course change from person to person. 

 

 

Even at the slower estimate of 42m there is still time (distance) for the motorcyclist to react. 

 

There is potentially something for motorcyclists to learn from this. I too believe that the head on collision was avoidable by heading to the left, I’m not even sure the bike needed to be laid down. 

 

I’m still so curious about no reaction at all from the motorcyclist and I’m wondering if there is something to learn from that specific aspect of this tragic incident. 

 

 

 

[scammed]

23 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

That makes a lot of sense, but you have also included ‘breaking distance’ to the distance in your interpretation that the head-on collision was unavoidable. 

 

There was no apparent reaction at all from the motorcyclist.

As you point out at 100kmh the reaction time takes up 42m after which time (distance) there was no visible reaction, no reaction at all from the motorcyclist for the full 3 seconds the car would have been in view, no attempt to swerve or move out of the way, no apparent braking *(although thats extremely difficult to tell from the video). 

 

I know, quickly swerving is difficult on a bike at speed on a curve, an experienced rider would immediately counter-steer to bring the bike onto the fringe. I’m not saying the deceased was an inexperienced rider, but I do not see any attempt to ‘manoeuvre’, to swerve, no shift of weight, no moment at all.... 

 

I see no reaction whatsoever from the motorcyclist.....  the option to avoid the head on impact definitely existed, it just seems the motorcyclist didn’t notice the car in his lane (which I find impossible). 

 

 

attempt to maneuver on a bike even at 50 km/h leads to loss of balance, you need a landing strip sized for boeing 747 to wiggle it out until you are (maybe) safe.

 

there is a misconception here that the biker rules the trajectory, but it aint so, its momentum that rules

[tlandtday]

11 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

There’s lots of info out there...  

 

And example: https://www.motorcycletesttips.uk/motorcycle-theory-test/motorcycle-stopping-distances/

 

I haven’t seen anything on a curve....  braking distances will vary significantly from the tires, tire pressures, quality of brakes, quality of road surface, size of bike (and tires) etc....  So stopping distances themselves ‘could’ be highly debated if we wanted to go down that road. 

 

The key issue for me not the actual stopping or breaking distance but the ‘thinking’ or ‘reaction’ distance... 

 

NanLeaw states the thinking / reaction distance is 42m when travelling at 100kmh. 

Other data below (from the link above) shows the thinking distance is less at 100km, closer to 20m (18m at 96kmh) - This will of course change from person to person. 

 

 

Even at the slower estimate of 42m there is still time (distance) for the motorcyclist to react. 

 

There is potentially something for motorcyclists to learn from this. I too believe that the head on collision was avoidable by heading to the left, I’m not even sure the bike needed to be laid down. 

 

I’m still so curious about no reaction at all from the motorcyclist and I’m wondering if there is something to learn from that specific aspect of this tragic incident. 

 

 

 

 

Good info and I hope all aware realize that their ABS brakes will lock up if rounding a curve. 

[VocalNeal]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:43 PM, Pravda said:

He was driving a motorcycle, way too fast in a single lane.

 

It looked, to me, like a PCX so no driving too fast on that?

[mikebike]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:29 PM, scammed said:

any attempt to maneuver with a bike

ends in loss in balance.

Well, you've just lost absolutely any credibility in this conversation.

 

I honestly cannot believe you typed that with serious intent...

 

I have neither the time, nor desire, to go into proving just how insane that statement is.

[mikebike]

On 5/29/2021 at 10:52 AM, NanLaew said:

Doesn't matter if the motorcyclist "wasn't exactly dawdling along" does it?

Actually in many countries it does.

 

In Canada I was apportioned 30% of blame for an accident where I was hit by a driver on the wrong side of the road because I was speeding.

[richard_smith237]

43 minutes ago, tlandtday said:

 

Good info and I hope all aware realize that their ABS brakes will lock up if rounding a curve. 

 

That depends on the lean angle...

 

A lot of decent bikes now have cornering ABS (not so in this case I know). 

 

In this case, had the deceased braked too hard and locked up on the curve its likely he would have slid out of way of the oncoming car.  Certainly very messy, plenty of road-rash if he was not wearing decent riding kit, but he’d be alive. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

56 minutes ago, scammed said:

attempt to maneuver on a bike even at 50 km/h leads to loss of balance, you need a landing strip sized for boeing 747 to wiggle it out until you are (maybe) safe.

 

there is a misconception here that the biker rules the trajectory, but it aint so, its momentum that rules

 

Its clear you don’t ride a motorcycle - or if you do, you really shouldn’t !!! (or you are finding extreme difficult in finding the correct words to explain what you mean).

 

Manoeuvring a motocycle at any speed is easy, it just takes a little counter-steering to flick a motorcycle onto  different trajectory even at speed - it takes more energy and more counter steering at higher speed due to the gyroscopic forces of the spinning wheels, however, its still easy.

 

In this case a subtle shift in direction by 1-2m towards the side of the road would be very easy for anyone with any experience riding. 

 

 

Your implication is that a motorcycle needs a landing strip of a 747 to wiggle it out is ludicrous, how do motorcycles ride around lanes and twisty mountain roads ?????

Your supposition that motorcycle can only go straight due to momentum is comical. 

 

Its become clear you have no credibility with any of the ’strange arguments’ you are presenting.

 

[mikebike]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:04 PM, Freigeist365 said:

After the nonsense everyone here was forced to read, written by you, all I can say is that I very much wish you will be ending up in a similar situation one day, and then - for a split second - remember all the nonsense you have written here, part blaming the American for being killed, before the lights go out as you were caught in the headlights like a deer, unable to move or do a thing to prevent the crash. In fact, this message goes out to all those who part-blame the motorcyclist whereas the driver of the black Mazda is the one and only person to blame.

I HAVE been in that situation, at least a half dozen times I can remember, maybe more.

 

It most definitely is survivable.

 

Blame is another thing entirely, but I think we can all agree that the car bears the vast majority of blame.

[mikebike]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:11 PM, Freigeist365 said:

 

The thing that disgusts me the most is that probably we have broken a beer together at some random bike week somewhere out there in Thailand. If so, I'd like to undo that please... I don't like smart #sses who HAVE to get it their way and who need to always have the last say while insulting others who try to prove their point in a nice way. Disgraceful to say the least, especially part blaming the American for being wiped out by that moronic Mitsubishi driver. Should be ashamed of yourself.

I don't do bike weeks. Riding is not about the social aspect for me, it is a personal pleasure.

 

I was trying to express my view in a nice way, and actually thought I was.

 

I have never blamed the biker.

 

Maybe you need to work on comprehension skills or understand that more than one point if view may be valid in this conversation depending on differing levels of risk acceptance and/or riding skill.

 

Anyway, I do not consider you to be disgusting or an #ss because you have a different viewpoint, just another in a wide spectrum of opinions.

 

To each his/her own.

Edited May 31, 2021 by mikebike

[mikebike]

On 5/29/2021 at 3:10 PM, richard_smith237 said:

The American was doing what millions do every day. 

 

I don’t see that he was riding dangerously or placing himself at any greater risk than any other motorcyclist.

You are 100% correct that he was doing what millions do.

 

Unfortunately one of the things he was doing which millions of others do is NOT utilizing any defensive riding technique .

[mikebike]

On 5/29/2021 at 3:14 PM, Odysseus123 said:

What jurisdictions?

 

This is complete fanciful nonsense.

 

Ontario, Canada. See post a few above.

[mikebike]

On 5/29/2021 at 7:30 PM, scammed said:

if you think a motorcycle can maneuver  safely,

then you just havnt driven motorcycle and been faced

with someone that summons in your path,

you will get hurt, period.

Yes it can.

 

Yes I have.

 

Sometimes you will get hurt, other times just the shakes after a close call.

[VocalNeal]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:24 PM, Odysseus123 said:

Yep-simple isn't it?

..and the Thai police agree.

 

..and the only people that seem to disagree are a bunch of whack jobs on ThaiVisa

 

This is why the collision happened. Experienced motorcyclists have been trying to explain why decisions the rider made and actions he took left him dead. When maybe with different decision and action he may still be alive. 

Quite funny that had this thread been in the Motorbike section is would probably have been 1/3 as long? As most would be on the same page, so to speak.

[mikebike]

On 5/29/2021 at 7:39 PM, richard_smith237 said:

When the motorcyclists comes into view there does not appear to be any ‘dip’ of the front as the motorcyclist applies his breaks which may indicate that he didn’t apply the brake, OR, he was already breaking hard and the front of the bike had already dipped. 

Doesn't the PCX have Honda's linked braking system which reduces front end dive? Fork dive is less of an indicator than it used to be.

[mikebike]

1 hour ago, scammed said:

attempt to maneuver on a bike even at 50 km/h leads to loss of balance,

Why do you keep drilling down on this totally absurd statement?

 

Can you take me to this place where bikes are flying all over the road for "manoeuvring" at 50km?

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, mikebike said:

On 5/29/2021 at 7:39 PM, richard_smith237 said:

When the motorcyclists comes into view there does not appear to be any ‘dip’ of the front as the motorcyclist applies his breaks which may indicate that he didn’t apply the brake, OR, he was already breaking hard and the front of the bike had already dipped. 

Doesn't the PCX have Honda's linked braking system which reduces front end dive? Fork dive is less of an indicator than it used to be.

 

Possible, there is always some front end compression (dive) on any vehicle, car, motorcycle, lorry etc...

 

In this case I don’t think the video is of sufficient quality to draw any accurate conclusion on whether or not the motorcyclist was braking hard or not.

 

What is clear is that motorcyclist made no attempt to manoeuvre left - this is what surprises me the most.

[Odysseus123]

47 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Ontario, Canada. See post a few above.

Insurance company or legal jurisdiction?

 

You were legally charged with 10% of the incident after you were killed in a fatal head on accident?

 

One wonders whether the mercury cure is still in use for chronic Stockholm Syndrome in Thailand.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Odysseus123

[ChaiyaTH]

Isn't this the same guy?
https://www.chiangraitimes.com/thailand-national-news/chiangrai-news/american-expat-kenneth-alberson-66-arrested-for-allegedly-running-online-human-trafficking-ring-in-chiang-rai/

[richard_smith237]

13 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Isn't this the same guy?
https://www.chiangraitimes.com/thailand-national-news/chiangrai-news/american-expat-kenneth-alberson-66-arrested-for-allegedly-running-online-human-trafficking-ring-in-chiang-rai/

 

Maybe yes, maybe no.... But is ‘who it is' relevant to ‘someone’ being killed on a motorcycle because another driver was careless enough to overtake on bend while at the same time the oncoming motorcyclist seemed to take no avoiding action...... 

 

 

 

[ChaiyaTH]

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Maybe yes, maybe no.... But is ‘who it is' relevant to ‘someone’ being killed on a motorcycle because another driver was careless enough to overtake on bend while at the same time the oncoming motorcyclist seemed to take no avoiding action...... 

Well that could be your relevance, not that it matters to him anymore by now. Those roads around CR are under construction forever, you get around 5 near to death experiences with similar driver behavior if going from CM to CR or back. I hate to travel it since.

[gomangosteen]

17 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Isn't this the same guy?
https://www.chiangraitimes.com/thailand-national-news/chiangrai-news/american-expat-kenneth-alberson-66-arrested-for-allegedly-running-online-human-trafficking-ring-in-chiang-rai/

No.

 

The deceased, passport shown on tv: Kenneth James Murray, born 7 August 1963 (57 years)

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Possible, there is always some front end compression (dive) on any vehicle, car, motorcycle, lorry etc...

 

In this case I don’t think the video is of sufficient quality to draw any accurate conclusion on whether or not the motorcyclist was braking hard or not.

 

What is clear is that motorcyclist made no attempt to manoeuvre left - this is what surprises me the most.

 

Just as we have no evidence of 'dive' to suggest braking due to the poor video resolution, we have no evidence that the motorcyclist didn't attempt to maneuver left.

 

Let's say he's doing +80 kph on a long, slow right-hander, with oncoming traffic. Where does the experienced motorcyclist position himself? If there was no oncoming traffic, it would probably be nearer to the crown of the road? Nearer the dividing line? Since there's oncoming traffic and he's seen another car just overtake the slower tanker, I would offer he's probably in the middle of his lane? Looking at the point of impact, I would say he was already moving to his left and the 'hard shoulder', maybe thinking 'this guys got to brake, he's got to have seen me.' The overtaking dashcam car never slowed until the collision was unavoidable and was already fully occupying any gap the motorcyclist was hoping to shoot?

 

Here's one for the guys that regularly ride longer distances on more open roads. Where do you position yourself? In the middle of your lane? Nearer the crown? Nearer the ditch?

[richard_smith237]

6 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

Just as we have no evidence of 'dive' to suggest braking due to the poor video resolution, we have no evidence that the motorcyclist didn't attempt to maneuver left.

 

Let's say he's doing +80 kph on a long, slow right-hander, with oncoming traffic. Where does the experienced motorcyclist position himself? If there was no oncoming traffic, it would probably be nearer to the crown of the road? Nearer the dividing line? Since there's oncoming traffic and he's seen another car just overtake the slower tanker, I would offer he's probably in the middle of his lane? Looking at the point of impact, I would say he was already moving to his left and the 'hard shoulder', maybe thinking 'this guys got to brake, he's got to have seen me.' The overtaking dashcam car never slowed until the collision was unavoidable and was already fully occupying any gap the motorcyclist was hoping to shoot?

 

Here's one for the guys that regularly ride longer distances on more open roads. Where do you position yourself? In the middle of your lane? Nearer the crown? Nearer the ditch?

 

A quick push on the left handlebar turns the bike very quickly to the left....  that didn’t happen, there wasn’t any change in attitude of the bike to indicate an input to change direction. 

 

The motorcyclist (deceased) comes into view (of the dash cam) in the muddle of his lane and impacts the car slightly to the left of the middle of his lane. 

(If I’m not mistaken I can hear a horn - Motorcyclist hit the horn?)

 

The only thing I can think of is that by the time the motorcyclist realised a collision was imminent he’d frozen and fixated on the impact with tragic consequences. 

 

While we are discussing the apparent absence of any reaction of the motorcyclist I want to point out that I am still of the firm opinion that the car driver is 100% at fault for causing the death of the motorcyclist. 

 

 

--------

 

Road positioning depends on many factors....  visibility round a corner, how tight the corner is, what there is to the left, road conditions, road quality, how busy the road is, sometimes the ‘ridden’ part of the road has been smoothed by so much traffic, the centre line could be too greasy from dropped oil etc, there could be grit and sand washed on from hills etc or blown in from roadworks etc...

 

 

The corner on this road (in the incident) is a wide sweeping corner, the road looks relatively new. 

I’d be positioned on the left half of my lane to open out visibility while keeping off any potential oil patches from dropped oil (from lorries etc), the road looks new so there wouldn’t be much tire wear and smoothing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VocalNeal]

39 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Here's one for the guys that regularly ride longer distances on more open roads. Where do you position yourself? In the middle of your lane? Nearer the crown? Nearer the ditch?

 

You don't know this? Tut tut. Ride safely.

[richard_smith237]

5 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

46 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Here's one for the guys that regularly ride longer distances on more open roads. Where do you position yourself? In the middle of your lane? Nearer the crown? Nearer the ditch?

 

You don't know this? Tut tut. Ride safely.

 

I’m sure he knows... but is also wondering what others do - a fair question. 

[scammed]

5 hours ago, mikebike said:

Well, you've just lost absolutely any credibility in this conversation.

 

I honestly cannot believe you typed that with serious intent...

 

I have neither the time, nor desire, to go into proving just how insane that statement is.

just two days ago, i pulled out from  a small soi,

someone has a habit of parking the car just before the soi, so i have to literally drive out on the new soi to see if anyone comes. someone came, he had 50 meters and was driving 50-60 km/h, i crossed the road in just 2 sec

but he lost balance as he thought he needed to maneuver to avoid collision.

he could not regain balance and fell down.

 

the roads here are not covered in ice thank goodness, but they are covered in fine sand,

still to this day it surprises me when i gently rev up and steer to pull out from a soi, and discover that both tyres are slipping and i need to put down my feet like makeshift support wheels.

 

tldr: momentum rules

Edited May 31, 2021 by scammed

[richard_smith237]

14 minutes ago, scammed said:

just two days ago, i pulled out from  a small soi,

someone has a habit of parking the car just before the soi, so i have to literally drive out on the new soi to see if anyone comes. someone came, he had 50 meters and was driving 50-60 km/h, i crossed the road in just 2 sec

but he lost balance as he thought he needed to maneuver to avoid collision.

he could not regain balance and fell down.

 

You pulled out in front of a motorcyclist, caused him to emergency brake, the motorcyclist dropped the bike, probably due to inexperience and most likely due to no ABS.

 

 

14 minutes ago, scammed said:

the roads here are not covered in ice thank goodness, but they are covered in fine sand,

still to this day it surprises me when i gently rev up and steer to pull out from a soi, and discover that both tyres are slipping and i need to put down my feet like makeshift support wheels.

 

tldr: momentum rules

 

You are loosing both the front and the rear wheels when pulling out from a soi ???...  are you riding on sand ?

A road next to a windy beach ?

 

Some roads are a lot more hazardous than others due to the quality of surface. 

 

Sometimes under heavy braking my ‘back end’ will get ’squirrelly’ as it looses traction... this happens on some roads more than others (due to poor grip).

Sometimes while making a tighter turn (i.e. a U-Turn), if I get a little too early on the throttle the rear end will slide out a little...  its unnerving and usually happens because the road is a bit too ’smooth’.

 

 

[scammed]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

You pulled out in front of a motorcyclist, caused him to emergency brake, the motorcyclist dropped the bike, probably due to inexperience and most likely due to no ABS.

 

 

 

You are loosing both the front and the rear wheels when pulling out from a soi ???...  are you riding on sand ?

A road next to a windy beach ?

 

Some roads are a lot more hazardous than others due to the quality of surface. 

 

Sometimes under heavy braking my ‘back end’ will get ’squirrelly’ as it looses traction... this happens on some roads more than others (due to poor grip).

Sometimes while making a tighter turn (i.e. a U-Turn), if I get a little too early on the throttle the rear end will slide out a little...  its unnerving and usually happens because the road is a bit too ’smooth’.

 

 

yes, if it hadnt come as a shock to him that someone (me) summoned right in front of him,

he could have calculated that i would have completed the cross long long before he arrived,

but i just recall someone on a bicycle was faced

with an mc that for some reason decided to stop on the lane the bicyclist was using, so the bicyclist fell.

 

this goes to show that unexpected events can and will go straight to hell because you cant foresee the event chain

and two wheeled vehicles are inherently unstable,

making them useless for maneuvering in surprise conditions

[Freigeist365]

5 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Isn't this the same guy?
https://www.chiangraitimes.com/thailand-national-news/chiangrai-news/american-expat-kenneth-alberson-66-arrested-for-allegedly-running-online-human-trafficking-ring-in-chiang-rai/

 

ChaiyaTH - thanks a lot for being a superficial and doss (deleted) trying to mock the deceased by jumping to idiotic conclusions while completely ignoring the fact that you could have researched and found out the following with a few clicks of a button. Shame on you!

The deceased, passport shown on tv: Kenneth James Murray, born 7 August 1963 (57 years)