Ivermectin: Yes, No or Maybe

[RR2020]

It will stay like this for a long time in the 2000 to 3000 range in my view.

 

Vaccination drive will falter very quickly, at the moment its just the petrified people scared of the "Covid" rushing to get jabbed. Once they are done, as is being seen in the USA and other places now......the people wanting the jab is less and less and the rate of vaccination drops off fast.

 

Covid must run its course.  

 

The more interesting thing going on now is the use of Ivermectin, proven in India, Argentina, now Indonesia is rolling out its use......globally being used in more and more countries.

 

The trouble with Ivermectin is that its old, the patent has expired, its cheap to make and billions of doses have been given out in the past decades so its safety record is good - but of course........it makes no profit..............

 

And of course.............Emergency Use authorisation (EUA) is only allowed if there is no other treatment, if suddenly the WHO said Ivermectin is ok to use and works, all vaccinations would have to stop as the EUA would be revoked.

 

Anyway, everyone should be aware that Ivermectin is being used by many more countries now, as said, Indonesia now rolling it out this month to supress outbreaks as it seems to be very effective.

[Danderman123]

27 minutes ago, RR2020 said:

 

 

The more interesting thing going on now is the use of Ivermectin, proven in India, Argentina, now Indonesia is rolling out its use......globally being used in more and more countries.

 

The trouble with Ivermectin is that its old, the patent has expired, its cheap to make and billions of doses have been given out in the past decades so its safety record is good - but of course........it makes no profit..............

 

And of course.............Emergency Use authorisation (EUA) is only allowed if there is no other treatment, if suddenly the WHO said Ivermectin is ok to use and works, all vaccinations would have to stop as the EUA would be revoked.

 

Anyway, everyone should be aware that Ivermectin is being used by many more countries now, as said, Indonesia now rolling it out this month to supress outbreaks as it seems to be very effective.

The problem with Ivermectin is that clinical trials have not demonstrated any effectiveness in regards to Covid-19. 
 

Conclusions In comparison to SOC or placebo, IVM did not reduce all-cause mortality, length of stay or viral clearance in RCTs in COVID-19 patients with mostly mild disease. Oral Ivermectin (IVM) did not have effect on AEs or SAEs. IVM is not a viable option to treat COVID-19 patients.

 

you can tell there’s a problem with a “cure” when it’s proponents can’t agree on its role in fighting Covid: is it a prophylactic? Is it a cure for the infected? What is the appropriate dosage? Is it only effective in combination with other drugs?

 

For my money, nothing beats Forsythia as a cure for Covid.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Danderman123

[Harry Om]

4 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The problem with Ivermectin is that clinical trials have not demonstrated any effectiveness in regards to Covid-19.

 

you can tell there’s a problem with a “cure” when it’s proponents can’t agree on its role in fighting Covid: is it a prophylactic? Is it a cure for the infected? What is the appropriate dosage? Is it only effective in combination with other drugs?

 

Not true. You need to take another look at the literature, there's many recent studies.

 

The criticism of the studies is that they are small. The reason they're small is because drug companies won't fund a large study.

 

For example;

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v1

 

 

[edwinchester]

34 minutes ago, RR2020 said:

It will stay like this for a long time in the 2000 to 3000 range in my view.

 

Vaccination drive will falter very quickly, at the moment its just the petrified people scared of the "Covid" rushing to get jabbed. Once they are done, as is being seen in the USA and other places now......the people wanting the jab is less and less and the rate of vaccination drops off fast.

 

Covid must run its course.  

 

The more interesting thing going on now is the use of Ivermectin, proven in India, Argentina, now Indonesia is rolling out its use......globally being used in more and more countries.

 

The trouble with Ivermectin is that its old, the patent has expired, its cheap to make and billions of doses have been given out in the past decades so its safety record is good - but of course........it makes no profit..............

 

And of course.............Emergency Use authorisation (EUA) is only allowed if there is no other treatment, if suddenly the WHO said Ivermectin is ok to use and works, all vaccinations would have to stop as the EUA would be revoked.

 

Anyway, everyone should be aware that Ivermectin is being used by many more countries now, as said, Indonesia now rolling it out this month to supress outbreaks as it seems to be very effective.

Appears it's been dropped by India.

 

https://www.india.com/news/india/ivermectin-doxycycline-dropped-from-list-of-covid-19-drugs-by-health-ministry-4720797/

 

[Danderman123]

8 minutes ago, Harry Om said:

Not true. You need to take another look at the literature, there's many recent studies.

 

The criticism of the studies is that they are small. The reason they're small is because drug companies won't fund a large study.

 

For example;

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v1

 

 

Drug companies are not the only game in town, universities and government will study anything related to Covid. 
 

 

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, edwinchester said:

Appears it's been dropped by India.

 

https://www.india.com/news/india/ivermectin-doxycycline-dropped-from-list-of-covid-19-drugs-by-health-ministry-4720797/

 

India and Brazil were the biggest proponents of Ivermectin. It didn’t work so well for them.

[Harry Om]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

India and Brazil were the biggest proponents of Ivermectin. It didn’t work so well for them.

I'm normally based in India. No one there was taking it. I think it was only in Goa where it was recommended, way after the horse had bolted.

 

The argument for Ivermectin is that it seems to reduce the antiviral load, at every stage of the disease.

 

So it may not stop you getting it, and it may not stop you dying. It's not a silver bullet.

 

But by reducing viral load it may reduce the length of infection, the severity of symptoms, and the risk of infecting others.

 

It's cheap and has no side effects.

 

I really don't see why there's so much angst towards it. It's not an either/or argument. People can still be vaccinated, wear masks and take all precautions, and take ivermectin.

 

And as I've said, lots of studies are now showing efficacy.

[wensiensheng]

51 minutes ago, RR2020 said:

It will stay like this for a long time in the 2000 to 3000 range in my view.

 

Vaccination drive will falter very quickly, at the moment its just the petrified people scared of the "Covid" rushing to get jabbed. Once they are done, as is being seen in the USA and other places now......the people wanting the jab is less and less and the rate of vaccination drops off fast.

 

Covid must run its course.  

 

The more interesting thing going on now is the use of Ivermectin, proven in India, Argentina, now Indonesia is rolling out its use......globally being used in more and more countries.

 

The trouble with Ivermectin is that its old, the patent has expired, its cheap to make and billions of doses have been given out in the past decades so its safety record is good - but of course........it makes no profit..............

 

And of course.............Emergency Use authorisation (EUA) is only allowed if there is no other treatment, if suddenly the WHO said Ivermectin is ok to use and works, all vaccinations would have to stop as the EUA would be revoked.

 

Anyway, everyone should be aware that Ivermectin is being used by many more countries now, as said, Indonesia now rolling it out this month to supress outbreaks as it seems to be very effective.

This is just a conspiracy theory masquerading as  misinformation

[4MyEgo]

53 minutes ago, RR2020 said:

Anyway, everyone should be aware that Ivermectin is being used by many more countries now, as said, Indonesia now rolling it out this month to supress outbreaks as it seems to be very effective.

 

Well said, there is a video on YouTube of a Professor in Argentina, his name is Dr Carvalla and listening to him the other day in an interview with another doctor, he said he has treated at least 15,000 people on Ivermectin and says that he is pro vax, but doesn't believe enough research has been done on vaccines yet, but it's up to the individual if they want it, and said he has only had 1 patient die taking Ivermectin, but also says that patient was in the late stages of Covid....to late really.

 

The best part about the video was that he said we are at opposite extremes, we have vaccines and we have other drugs, we have to come to the middle.

[Danderman123]

8 minutes ago, Harry Om said:

I'm normally based in India. No one there was taking it. I think it was only in Goa where it was recommended, way after the horse had bolted.

 

The raging second wave of the novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19) in India has made one drug nearly a household name: Ivermectin is being prescribed much more liberally than national guidelines suggest.

 

“I was prescribed Ivermectin both at home as well as when I was admitted to a hospital after I contracted COVID-19 infection during the first wave,” said a working professional based in Odisha, on the condition of anonymity.

 

Doctors admitted to have prescribed the drug under compulsion, peer pressure or on patient’s demand, resulting in overuse at hospitals. 

[Harry Om]

6 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The raging second wave of the novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19) in India has made one drug nearly a household name: Ivermectin is being prescribed much more liberally than national guidelines suggest.

 

“I was prescribed Ivermectin both at home as well as when I was admitted to a hospital after I contracted COVID-19 infection during the first wave,” said a working professional based in Odisha, on the condition of anonymity.

 

Doctors admitted to have prescribed the drug under compulsion, peer pressure or on patient’s demand, resulting in overuse at hospitals. 

From the same article,

 

" The drug does not prevent a COVID-19 infection. It “helps in reducing the severity of the disease”"

 

Which is the point.

 

But we can agree to disagree. I'll continue to take it.

Worse case scenario it does nothing vs covid, but I won't have worms.

[4MyEgo]

5 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

It’s Doctor Carvallo. He uses a combination of drugs that includes Dexamethasone, which is known to reduce inflammation. So, his research is biased by the inclusion of other drugs.

 

Why would his research be biased if it works,  it works, e.g. take one aspirin with this and or that, if it works, it works, that is the end point, it's a Dr patient situation, e.g.  Dr, how long have you had these symptoms; Patient xyz days; Dr, take Ivermectin at this dose along with this and that.

[Harry Om]

From the American Journal of Therapeutics, Published online 2021 Apr 22.

 

"Conclusions:

Meta-analyses based on 18 randomized controlled treatment trials of ivermectin in COVID-19 have found large, statistically significant reductions in mortality, time to clinical recovery, and time to viral clearance. Furthermore, results from numerous controlled prophylaxis trials report significantly reduced risks of contracting COVID-19 with the regular use of ivermectin. Finally, the many examples of ivermectin distribution campaigns leading to rapid population-wide decreases in morbidity and mortality indicate that an oral agent effective in all phases of COVID-19 has been identified."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8088823/

[clivebaxter]

Can you take the cheap version for pets, is is that dangerous?

[Harry Om]

9 minutes ago, clivebaxter said:

Can you take the cheap version for pets, is is that dangerous?

 

I'm not a Dr, this is not medical advice, etc etc....

 

But if I run out of my current supply, and I can't get any more, that's probably what I'll do.

 

In theory, it should be identical, but it depends on the source, and may not go through the same rigorous standards of testing. But if it's okay for your dog to take, it's probably okay for you to take.

 

But best to get from a pharmacy if possible, IMO. I'm not sure how hard that is to do in Thailand.

[Harry Om]

IMO the best place for info on Ivermectin is here;

 

https://covid19criticalcare.com/

[GroveHillWanderer]

3 hours ago, RR2020 said:

And of course.............Emergency Use authorisation (EUA) is only allowed if there is no other treatment, if suddenly the WHO said Ivermectin is ok to use and works, all vaccinations would have to stop as the EUA would be revoked.

That's not the case - vaccines and therapeutics are two totally different classes of drugs and are treated separately.

 

There are already therapeutics approved for use (remdesivir and dexamethasone, for instance). That doesn't stop vaccinations.

 

Even if ivermectin were absolutely and definitively proven to be more effective than vaccines (some of which, let's not forget, are 95% effective) it's still primarily a treatment for people who have already got the disease. 

 

Vaccines are a prophylactic drug that (to a large extent) can stop people getting ill in the first place.

 

That's always preferable to treating them after they get sick, no matter how good the treatment.

Edited June 8, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[RR2020]

2 hours ago, edwinchester said:

Appears it's been dropped by India.

 

https://www.india.com/news/india/ivermectin-doxycycline-dropped-from-list-of-covid-19-drugs-by-health-ministry-4720797/

 

 

Actually, you can see the "misinformation" here.  As Ivermectin was never on any list.........it cannot be dropped if it was never recommended in the first place.

 

Actually whats happened is the DGHS has simply said its not WHO approved so dont use it.

 

Which is a very different headline to it being "dropped".

 

MONEY MONEY MONEY.............dont let a simple cheap drug get in the way of all the Covid profits.

 

 

 

DGHS drops Ivermectin, Doxycycline from Covid-19 treatment; ICMR rules unchanged - Coronavirus Outbreak News (indiatoday.in)

 

..............However, there seems to be a split in opinion about the new directives as the Indian Council for Medical Research, the country's leading health agency in the fight against the Covid-19 pandemic, has not yet approved the revised guidelines.....................

[RR2020]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

The problem with Ivermectin is that clinical trials have not demonstrated any effectiveness in regards to Covid-19. 
 

Conclusions In comparison to SOC or placebo, IVM did not reduce all-cause mortality, length of stay or viral clearance in RCTs in COVID-19 patients with mostly mild disease. Oral Ivermectin (IVM) did not have effect on AEs or SAEs. IVM is not a viable option to treat COVID-19 patients.

 

you can tell there’s a problem with a “cure” when it’s proponents can’t agree on its role in fighting Covid: is it a prophylactic? Is it a cure for the infected? What is the appropriate dosage? Is it only effective in combination with other drugs?

 

For my money, nothing beats Forsythia as a cure for Covid.

 

 

I think you will not see Clinical trials until after vaccine roll out is done as much as possible and the top vaccines are all approved for general use and no longer under EAU.

 

So many countries are now using Ivermectin for Covid with good results that its going to be harder and harder to keep sweeping it under the carpet.

 

The 2 people responsible for the discovery of Ivermectin received Nobel awards, its been given out in billions of doses over the past decades - and suddenly we should all be scared of it - because the WHO will not do clinical trials and then claims lack of clinical trials is the reason not to use it.

 

Why are they not doing clinical trials ?  This being the same WHO who say its not a China virus, who said not to stop flights from China to stop the spread, who said dont wear masks.....then said yes do wear masks.............the same WHO who appears more a political machine now under the control of China as opposed to a real Health Organisation ??

 

People are not saying dont get a vaccine - they are saying get vaccinated but hey........this Ivermectin works dont you know from our real world experience.......why are you not doing clinical trials and getting it approved for Covid use ?

 

All very interesting.

 

 

[Danderman123]

No need to debate this. The medical community will evaluate the clinical trials, and either Ivermectin will be adopted as a standard regimen, or it will go the way of hydroxylchloroquine. 
 

when laymen are promoting a cure, that is generally not a good sign.

[GroveHillWanderer]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

The problem with Ivermectin is that clinical trials have not demonstrated any effectiveness in regards to Covid-19. 

I think that's a bit too general of a statement. Some studies have not shown any effectiveness, others have indicated a beneficial effect.

 

Professor Tess Laurie, director of the Evidence-based Medicine Consultancy in Bath, UK who works for both the NHS and the WHO published an interesting pre-print paper just recently.

 

The paper is a meta-analysis of numerous different studies (including random controlled trials and observational studies) into the use of ivermectin and it finds that if you take all the different studies in total, the evidence that ivermectin has a beneficial effect on CoVid-19 seems to outweigh the evidence that it hasn't.

 

Here's a link to it.

 

Meta-analysis of Ivermectin

Edited June 8, 2021 by GroveHillWanderer

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

No need to debate this. The medical community will evaluate the clinical trials, and either Ivermectin will be adopted as a standard regimen, or it will go the way of hydroxylchloroquine. 
 

when laymen are promoting a cure, that is generally not a good sign.

The thing is, it's not only laymen, though. Doctors and scientists are also "promoting" it, such as the Front Line Covid Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC) in the US. The FLCCC is a grouping of Critical Care physicians and researchers. 

 

Now, just because they're doctors and scientists doesn't mean they're right, but it's definitely not only lay people that are advocating for its use.

[Harry Om]

53 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The thing is, it's not only laymen, though. Doctors and scientists are also "promoting" it, such as the Front Line Covid Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC) in the US. The FLCCC is a grouping of Critical Care physicians and researchers. 

 

Now, just because they're doctors and scientists doesn't mean they're right, but it's definitely not only lay people that are advocating for its use.

 

Exactly. The reason lay people are discussing it is because of Doctors and Scientists. It's not like lay people just woke up in the morning and spontaneously decided to talk about Ivermectin.

[DJBenz]

3 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The thing is, it's not only laymen, though. Doctors and scientists are also "promoting" it, such as the Front Line Covid Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC) in the US. The FLCCC is a grouping of Critical Care physicians and researchers. 

 

Now, just because they're doctors and scientists doesn't mean they're right, but it's definitely not only lay people that are advocating for its use.

We've seen many outlying opinions on a myriad of aspects of the pandemic (The Great Barrington Declaration, anyone?), but it's scientific consensus that wins out at the end of the day. Ergo, let the scientists and science decide.

 

FWIW, the FLCCC had its paper removed from the Frontiers in Pharmacology journal for "unsubstantiated claims" and that it  "violated the journal’s editorial policies."

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/frontiers-removes-controversial-ivermectin-paper-pre-publication-68505

[impulse]

If I wasn't vaccinated, I'd be taking IVM.  No downside -based on decades of safe usage- and there's so much conflicting information on whether it's beneficial.

 

Getting into an argument about its effectiveness is futile for us sitting in the peanut gallery.  It's like betting on a WWF match.  The winner will be whoever they decide it is.

 

[Jeffr2]

22 hours ago, Harry Om said:

Not true. You need to take another look at the literature, there's many recent studies.

 

The criticism of the studies is that they are small. The reason they're small is because drug companies won't fund a large study.

 

For example;

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.31.21258081v1

That's not a credible study, not peer reviewed.  And sorry, but if Ivermectin was successful at treating CV19, the big drug companies would be all over it. 

 

It's been proven to NOT be successful.  Sad some try to push these dodgy drugs.

 

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

 

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

[Jeffr2]

12 hours ago, impulse said:

If I wasn't vaccinated, I'd be taking IVM.  No downside -based on decades of safe usage- and there's so much conflicting information on whether it's beneficial.

 

Getting into an argument about its effectiveness is futile for us sitting in the peanut gallery.  It's like betting on a WWF match.  The winner will be whoever they decide it is.

 

The winner is whoever the scientists and medical experts decide is best.  No conspiracy theories here, please.

[impulse]

4 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

That's not a credible study, not peer reviewed.  And sorry, but if Ivermectin was successful at treating CV19, the big drug companies would be all over it. 

 

Exactly how would they "be all over" a 40 year old drug that they can't monetize?

 

 

[Jeffr2]

8 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

Exactly how would they "be all over" a 40 year old drug that they can't monetize?

 

 

Terrible conspiracy theory.  If it worked, the WHO and many other organizations would be all over it.  Come on.  Conspiracy theories help no one with regards to this.  It's been debunked.  Admit it.

[impulse]

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

Terrible conspiracy theory.  If it worked, the WHO and many other organizations would be all over it.  Come on.  Conspiracy theories help no one with regards to this.  It's been debunked.  Admit it.

 

Why is it that any narrative that doesn't match yours is a conspiracy theory?  Have you considered the possibility that you're the one who's fallen for a conspiracy theory?   Like the one that says the virus popped up out of nature...