Who will never vaccinate except if forced to for visa reasons ? and do you think that they will force us ?

[ozimoron]

Just now, ebice said:

Ah, I do not mean "stay that way" , my message is that hopefully it does not get worse, and can improve!

It is improving because more people are getting vaccinated.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, ebice said:

Ah, I do not mean "stay that way" , my message is that hopefully it does not get worse, and can improve!

On that we both agree. 

 

This wretched disease has killed too many already.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Because of Invermectin, but this news has been blocked. 

It turns out that in Indian states that claimed huge success with ivermectin there were also huge jumps in excess mortality...hmmm...

[KhunLA]

29 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

the trend is clear.

that's one opinion

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

IMHO ... not too sure about that, as seemed in the beginning, if died with any cold or flu symptoms, it may have been listed as a covid death.  Many covid listed deaths were not tested / confirmed, but simply suspected.  I'm sure everyone has read news-blips of cancer (1 recently), gunshot, vehicle accident deaths being listed as covid deaths.

 

CDC's own material points this out.  When pointed out, they / CDC, did change the criteria for reporting covid deaths.  This should not be news to anyone.

 

DISCLAIMER: this is my opinion and can't be bothered to substantiate everything I know to be true, so google it.   Prefer not to be put on restricted posting because other are to lazy or don't know how to find info.

Many countries, including Thailand, have admitted to under counting.  Mexico was a factor of 3!

 

And in Africa, they barely count at all.  Who knows what's going on there.  In the beginning, they didn't even know what covid was.  Many states didn't have enough covid test kits.  So deaths were not properly recorded.

[Jeffr2]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

IMHO ... not too sure about that, as seemed in the beginning, if died with any cold or flu symptoms, it may have been listed as a covid death.  Many covid listed deaths were not tested / confirmed, but simply suspected.  I'm sure everyone has read news-blips of cancer (1 recently), gunshot, vehicle accident deaths being listed as covid deaths.

 

CDC's own material points this out.  When pointed out, they / CDC, did change the criteria for reporting covid deaths.  This should not be news to anyone.

 

DISCLAIMER: this is my opinion and can't be bothered to substantiate everything I know to be true, so google it.   Prefer not to be put on restricted posting because other are to lazy or don't know how to find info.

Please, don't post misinformation.  Death certificates in the US are legal documents, being done by a doctor. 

 

Since you won't substantiate this, I'm guessing your source is social media or some fake news website.  Stop.

[earthscar]

On 7/26/2021 at 7:25 PM, ignis said:

People that DO NOT or CANNOT have the vaccine are all tarred with the same brush  ??

 

No I DO NOT take any flu shots I tried 20 years ago, and still suffer from the side effects now, as with many other vaccines from childhood to now + a good few Prescription meds

Last Sept Dr said was 100% safe to have the Pneumonia vaccine = taken to Hospital in a Coma [severe allergic reaction] told not to take part 2.. 4 nights in Hospital

 

I do not class myself as a antivaxxer, just one of the few that cannot get the Vaccine + advice from my Dr [Professor of Diabetic's at Chula Hospital] + got a 2nd opinion from  Dr. J N Naidu MBBS., MD BIOCHEMISTRY, both saying NO

 

I am 100% in the high at risk group Diabetic + CKD + 70s

 

Guess you then would class me as a ignorant antivaxxer ??

 

See these kind of responses always bemuse me because i think they so drastically miss the mark and its a shame because it looks/feels like they are unknowingly, or not, hurting themselves.

 

case in point your situation.. they wont force you if a doc says your body can't handle it. That's where this all comes to ahead.. all the citizens that can get it(read not immune suppressed due to illness, surgery etc) so that citizens like you are a bit more safe. 

 

Covid policies in usa are not there to hamper your freedom their goal is 1) stop the spread/deaths and two protect our weakest citizens(old, infirm, surgery patient etc) so they can live the best life they can w/ that situation. This same statement can fit for a decent amount of the continues as far as i have been able to gather from news reports.

 

I don't know you, your family friends or pet gerbil and i probly never will but even so I don't want it on my conscious that i willfully didn't take the appropriate steps to let you/them live the best life they can. 

 

Empathy and support of your fellow man. We(USA can't speak about other places) dictate rules in the USA all the time. just like the word democracy its not as cut and dry as you would think when put into practice in the real world. In the USA we mandate vaccines for chicken pocks etc. our Solders who go into the field have posted about the crazy amount of vaccines/shots they have to take due to the location they are going. we have laws in place for how fast you can drive, wearing a seat belt, where you can walk..it goes on and on. 

 

vaccine mandates are not new, what is new is social media and its ability to put ppl in a echo chamber and limit their awareness/care of those outside it. 

 

imo take the vaccine(based of doc recommendation) and next time you walk by a person in a wheel chair or a elderly person give yourself a little pat on the shoulder. Its small but small changes can effect large outcomes.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, earthscar said:

vaccine mandates are not new, what is new is social media and its ability to put ppl in a echo chamber and limit their awareness/care of those outside it.

Indeed, even the young are bemoaning the compartmentalisation of people into echo chambers of confirmation bias on social media. Nowhere more evident than on facebook, instagram and tik tok whose algorithms target users with more content which aligns with their views than challenge them give neutral viewpoints. This was being discussed on Australia's triple J radio station last night.

Edited October 30, 2021 by ozimoron

[robblok]

What this topic shows me is that most antivaxers do no real own research and make a lot of <deleted> assumptions. 

 

Especially @ebice seems to be mangeling figures and making stupid statements on Singapore as proof that vaccination does not work.

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/commentary-covid-19-tackle-factors-causing-covid-19-deaths

 

According to the SG times 2/3 of the 200 deaths in that month were not vaccinated. So a 80% vaccination rate and that 20% unvaccinated accounts for 2/3 of the deaths.

 

So 2/3 that already shows without correcting it for the difference in the amount of vaccinated people vs not vaccinated it already has the mosts deaths. Now add that correction and again it shows that unvaccinated are 8x !!!!! times more likely to die.

 

How is this not proof that vaccinations work and that people like @ebice misrepresent numbers to make their case. But do so based on wrong assumptions. 

 

Does it mean antivaxxers are dumb or do they on purpose misrepresent data. That is the big question.

[ozimoron]

Just now, robblok said:

Does it mean antivaxxers are dumb or do they on purpose misrepresent data. That is the big question.

Studying correlations in demographics provides the answer to this question quite clearly. It is overwhelmingly associated with partisan politics and certain sectors of the media. This level of zealotry can't be born of pure curiosity.

[earthscar]

40 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Because of Invermectin, but this news has been blocked. 

i'm assuming you meant to put a /s there..because..umm have you seen the drone footage out there of the corpses being buried along the river. The lack of oxygen at hospitals so ppl where forced to try and find and bring their own to the hospitals.. i mean if you don't want to take the time i could link you some but i'm just going to hope you forgot the /s and meant to say that inda isn't a upside...

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

IMHO ... not too sure about that, as seemed in the beginning, if died with any cold or flu symptoms, it may have been listed as a covid death.  Many covid listed deaths were not tested / confirmed, but simply suspected.  I'm sure everyone has read news-blips of cancer (1 recently), gunshot, vehicle accident deaths being listed as covid deaths.

 

CDC's own material points this out.  When pointed out, they / CDC, did change the criteria for reporting covid deaths.  This should not be news to anyone.

 

DISCLAIMER: this is my opinion and can't be bothered to substantiate everything I know to be true, so google it.   Or simply ignore it, assuming it is not a fact.  Prefer not to be put on restricted posting because other are too lazy or don't know how to find info.

Your point would be a better one were it not for the fact of excess mortality.

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Studying correlations in demographics provides the answer to this question quite clearly. It is overwhelmingly associated with partisan politics and certain sectors of the media. This level of zealotry can't be born of pure curiosity.

That might be so in the USA, (Republicans seem to be more antivax) but in the Netherlands there is no such thing in politics. Our politics is splintered as is. But its not so that certain parties are worse then others. (maybe Christian parties but even those are usually pro vax). So in my country it has nothing to do with politics.

 

Just idiots vs people who trust science and can use their brain.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

That might be so in the USA, (Republicans seem to be more antivax) but in the Netherlands there is no such thing in politics. Our politics is splintered as is. But its not so that certain parties are worse then others. (maybe Christian parties but even those are usually pro vax). So in my country it has nothing to do with politics.

 

Just idiots vs people who trust science and can use their brain.

Do you believe that the level of anti vax zealotry in the Netherlands is anywhere like that in the US and to some extent in other English speaking countries which have a similar media scourge?

Edited October 30, 2021 by ozimoron

[KhunLA]

Of course one could always ponder if $$$$ was a factor for reporting deaths as covid.

Medicare in USA pays more if a covid death ... hmm

"Our ruling: True

We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

 

People should research CDC's site for facts and information.  Make up one's own mind.  Not listen to me or anyone on the internet.

[Neeranam]

12 minutes ago, earthscar said:

i'm assuming you meant to put a /s there..because..umm have you seen the drone footage out there of the corpses being buried along the river. The lack of oxygen at hospitals so ppl where forced to try and find and bring their own to the hospitals.. i mean if you don't want to take the time i could link you some but i'm just going to hope you forgot the /s and meant to say that inda isn't a upside...

No, I have seen no footage of that. 

 

What is an "/s" ?

[Neeranam]

54 minutes ago, robblok said:

So just on one day we see that in of the 20% unvaccinated idiots account for 10 deaths and the 80% vaccinated account for 5 deaths.

There are many idiots that have been vaccinated too. 

[ebice]

54 minutes ago, robblok said:

20% unvaccinated idiots account

So, unvaccinated people are idiots?, does that include 31% of the unvaxxed Dutch?

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Do you believe that the level of anti vax zealotry in the Netherlands is anywhere like that in the US and to some extent in other English speaking countries which have a similar media scourge?

Yes I believe its as bad, and the battle lines are getting more grim. Both sides are digging in for a fight. 

 

You got the antivaxers that cry discrimination and make WW2 comparisons with jews because they aren't allowed to do the same stuff. Then you got the pro vax that say that antivaxers are selfish for holding ICU beds and slowing down healthcare for others. 

 

The pro vax is also saying that new closure and rules should apply to those not vaccinated and those that are vaccinated should have more freedoms.

 

So I think we got the same problem in the Netherlands as in other countries its just not on political lines. 

[KhunLA]

46 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Many countries, including Thailand, have admitted to under counting.  Mexico was a factor of 3!

 

And in Africa, they barely count at all.  Who knows what's going on there.  In the beginning, they didn't even know what covid was.  Many states didn't have enough covid test kits.  So deaths were not properly recorded.

This can be taken 2 ways, deaths and cases under reported due to testing. Agree with that.  

 

BUT .... Also since lack of testing, especially mass testing, or locals getting tested (Thailand) simply for having flu symptoms, the amount of covid case may be much higher.  Meaning the recovery rate is much higher, since none to few symptoms were treated at home, or visit to doc or hospital, with no testing, so meds prescribed and sent on their way.  

 

I suspect the latter is more the case, and case numbers are substantially higher than reported, meaning recovery rate would also be much higher than the 98 ish % in Thailand. 

 

How many cancer patients would love those odds.

Edited October 30, 2021 by KhunLA

[robblok]

1 minute ago, ebice said:

So, unvaccinated people are idiots?, does that include 31% of the unvaxxed Dutch?

Yes it does.. everyone who does not vaccinate (besides those that can't medically) are idiots.

 

I see you skillfully avoided going in on the Singapore date so you don't look even more like a fool. Its a good strategy keeping silent because attacking it would only show your less then stellar reasoning. 

 

So will you admit now you were wrong on Singapore ? or just talk about the unimportant things. I mean if you make stupid statements about countries and proven wrong. Should you not at least admit you made a mistake with the data ?

 

I know its hard to admit that you had it totally wrong and that Singapore actually shows that its good to vaccinate as a vaccinated person in Singapore has 8 times less chance then a not vaccinated person there.

 

So please either admit you were wrong or counter the argument and try to avoid it with bringing stuff up that is not relevant. 

[ebice]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

So will you admit now you were wrong on Singapore

Ok, if you can show what exactly I got wrong, I will indulge you.

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

Many of these armchair “anti- vax” loons I am SURE have been vaxxed so just “trolling”.

If not vaxxed, expose them Personally to EXTREME Covid. Lock them overnight in an ICU or Long Covid Ward.Next morning about 99% will have changed their minds. Action not Words from now on.

[earthscar]

20 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

No, I have seen no footage of that. 

 

What is an "/s" ?

/s = sarcasm narendra modi

 

vid link for you on the graves

 

some really harrowing stories of families trying anything to get help for family members. india was next level nuts. large population and religious services(india politics and religious are hand in hand due to narendra modi views) they just went thru some elections and due to the religious political connection that ment insane rallies(india pop holy..) and religious festivals..that led to some insane numbers.

 

the insanity of a oxygen shortage..

 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, ebice said:

Ok, if you can show what exactly I got wrong, I will indulge you.

You linked vaccination to increased death rate in Singapore with your cold hard data.

 

You showed higher deaths and higher vaccination. Without mentioning that the large majority of deaths were unvaccinated.

 

If you had added that it would have shown that SG is an example for vaccination. Not a case against it like you made it appear with your data.

 

By putting data down in a certain way you misrepresent stuff, that is a typical antivax strategy.

 

Just admit that SG data shows that those vaccinated have a 8 times better survival rate from covid then those who have not in SG.

 

That is all.

[earthscar]

25 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Check the graph on the link here. 

 

https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/

issue w/ that graff is that there seems to be some very strong indications the numbers out of india are off by alot.

 

some of this comes from the fact those living far outside the city may not have had the faculties to deal w/ covid and the deaths so they would bury them along the river thus the vid i posted above.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/24/world/asia/india-coronavirus-deaths.html

 

a quick article by nytimes there are a lot across the various media formats if your not a nytimes fan. 

[ebice]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

You linked vaccination to increased death rate in Singapore with your cold hard data.

 

You showed higher deaths and higher vaccination. Without mentioning that the large majority of deaths were unvaccinated.

 

If you had added that it would have shown that SG is an example for vaccination. Not a case against it like you made it appear with your data.

 

By putting data down in a certain way you misrepresent stuff, that is a typical antivax strategy.

 

Just admit that SG data shows that those vaccinated have a 8 times better survival rate from covid then those who have not in SG.

 

That is all.

Oh, so nothing wrong in what I posted??

 

"Just admit that SG data shows that those vaccinated have a 8 times better survival rate from covid then those who have not in SG."

 

Feel free to add this data, or anything else you like, but unless you can't prove I am wrong on ANYTHING, what to do? I can't help you anymore. I'll leave it with you to dig a deeper hole.

 

 

 

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, ebice said:

Oh, so nothing wrong in what I posted??

 

"Just admit that SG data shows that those vaccinated have a 8 times better survival rate from covid then those who have not in SG."

 

Feel free to add this data, or anything else you like, but unless you can't prove I am wrong on ANYTHING, what to do? I can't help you anymore. I'll leave it with you to dig a deeper hole.

 

No need everyone with half a brain knows what your doing. I am not digging a hole at all you are. Only those with limited brainpower don't see through your strategy. 

 

What your doing is akin to those police brutality vids you sometimes see in the Netherlands. They show a cop getting violent with someone (not a good thing and not that common in my country) but they neglect to show the part where they for instance spit in the face of the cop. By omitting data you can make things look in a certain way while the reality is totally different.

 

That is exactly what your doing and a typical antivax strategy. Thankfully the more inteligent posters on this forum who happen to be also mainly pro vaccination (wonder about the correlation there) see right through it.

 

So im not digging and those who don't see through your strategy i don't mind if they think im wrong as i don't need validation by dumb people. I feel far more validated in my posts if i get a like from someone who has proven to be able to make good arguments find data to support it and make a good case. I don't mind being looked down on by those that can't look through your deception because basically they are not bright.

 

Im just following the basic strategy that is also used to counter those vids that don't show the whole picture. By adding the full data so people can make an unbias decision about who is right.

Edited October 30, 2021 by robblok

[ebice]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

No need everyone with half a brain knows what your doing. I am not digging a hole at all you are. Only those with limited brainpower don't see through your strategy. 

 

What your doing is akin to those police brutality vids you sometimes see in the Netherlands. They show a cop getting violent with someone (not a good thing and not that common in my country) but they neglect to show the part where they for instance spit in the face of the cop. By omitting data you can make things look in a certain way while the reality is totally different.

 

That is exactly what your doing and a typical antivax strategy. Thankfully the more inteligent posters on this forum who happen to be also mainly pro vaccination (wonder about the correlation there) see right through it.

 

So im not digging and those who don't see through your strategy i don't mind if they think im wrong as i don't need validation by dumb people. I feel far more validated in my posts if i get a like from someone who has proven to be able to make good arguments find data to support it and make a good case. I don't mind being looked down on by those that can't look through your deception because basically they are not bright.

So you get all cranked up, go on a rage if people don't share your interests, or beliefs and they are of "limited brainpower", etc. BUT for some reason you keep trying to chop them down, first by saying they are "wrong" but you can't prove it, only to get more wound up which is very telling to me. Read u like a book. Relax Holland, look elsewhere to vent your frustration.

Edited October 30, 2021 by ebice

[robblok]

1 minute ago, ebice said:

So you get all cranked up, go on a rage if people don't share your interests, or beliefs they are of "limited brainpower", etc BUT for some reason you keep trying to chop them down, first by saying they are "wrong" but you can't prove it,only to get more wound up which is very telling to me. Read u like a book. Relax Holland, go elsewhere to vent your frustration.

I proven it already and yes I keep posting because there will be people with less brain power who might actually be convinced by your data and think vaccination does not work. Because that is the conclusion stupid people will draw from you post.

 

So its good that people me and others challenge antivaxxers like you and put their argument down. I see it as doing my social duty, as i have noticed that antivax idiots are quite fantatic so it needs good posts to keep them in check and stop the spread of their toxic mindset.

 

Your way of posting is typical antivax garbage. Avoiding points staying vague and when countered ignoring stuff. 

 

You thought you read me like a book but you got me wrong, you thought i was getting frustrated. I am not just doing my social duty nothing more. Without people like me and others in this topic antivax idiots would spread too much lies.