Should I drain and re-grout 8 year old pool

[Wildrover9999]

Our pool is concrete with tiles, 8 years old. The pool has served us well and is used daily, however now showing some small signs of wear and tear. Grouting has eroded considerably, and couple of cracked tiles. The pool has never had the water changed since it was first built. Should I drain and re-grout? How often should the water be changed in a pool, if ever?  

[Bagwain]

Sounds like a regrout is in order.

We always drum test the tiles and re-glue any loose ones.

Only time you really need to empty a pool is for repairs/reno or if the <deleted> (Total Dissolved Solids) are over 1500 ppm.

Even then a partial dump and fill will do it. However if you do regular backwashes it would normally take care of this.

Why not consider a resurface with PebbleCrete. Hardest surface on the market, gets better with age and has 5 yr product warranty.

www.pebblecrete.com 

 

 

[ChipButty]

No need to retile just drain the pool replace the cracked tiles if they are still available and re grout with a good quality pool grout, 

When your pool was first built you maybe didn't know what kind of grout they used, cheapest they could find

As for changing the water there should be no need, if you are using the pool daily and the pool tops it's self up then over a period of time it has replenished it's self + evaporation and back washing 

[Saanim]

^ Yes, to repair just the damaged tiles is OK.

 

As of the grouting, it has to be noted that the grouting is affected  by a lower value of pH (acidic) that is often recommended in order to assure a good effectiveness of chlorine should the chlorine be the only protection against algae.  If we have other means against algae, the chlorine does not need to be so strong - just for protection against gems. Then also the pH does not be to be maintained so low as recommended (near to 7.2). 

 

I do not care the whole year about pH measurement - when checked just from a curiosity it is mostly near 8 - and the water is clear every day. And the tiles, the cheapest one (kitchen tiles as some here like to say) and the grouting made by the cheapest cement with a bit of waterproof addition (as can be bought at the village hardware shop) - are with no visible deterioration after 15 years.       

[zappalot]

On 9/4/2021 at 10:36 PM, Saanim said:

As of the grouting, it has to be noted that the grouting is affected  by a lower value of pH (acidic) ...

Exactly, the grout should be good forever if pH is maintained above 7 at all times. This cant be stressed enough. Acidity adds up exponentially for every 0.1 points of pH if pH < 7 , destroying grout and cement used in/around the pool...

[Saanim]

7 hours ago, zappalot said:

Exactly, the grout should be good forever if pH is maintained above 7 at all times. This cant be stressed enough. Acidity adds up exponentially for every 0.1 points of pH if pH < 7 , destroying grout and cement used in/around the pool...

The pH above 7 is theoretically not acidic, however, it eats the grouting anyway, if maintained around 7.2 as mostly recommended to keep the chlorine effective enough to fight algae. 

 

So, since I am not keen to have the grouting slowly devoured by lowering the pH - while for the algae I have something more powerful (and cheaper) and not depending on pH - the water will help itself without my care to keep the pH near to 8.

 

Then, I do not need to worry about my grouting and tiling as others who have the pool nicely mosaic-tiled (by professional pool builders), however, every 5 years again.      

[zappalot]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

 - while for the algae I have something more powerful (and cheaper) and not depending on pH - the water will help itself without my care to keep the pH near to 8.

 

 

Interesting, I am curious - what is it that you use?

[Saanim]

14 hours ago, zappalot said:

Interesting, I am curious - what is it that you use?

I will disclose the secret (not mine, anyway). An old good Copper Sulphate that has the one disadvantage: It's cheap, with long term effect and does not need the pH be maintained. 

[Wildrover9999]

Thanks everybody for your advice and suggestions, very helpful indeed. The pool was built professionally by Ocean Pools and they maintain it for us, and do a very good job. We kept spare tiles when it was built so I will have them re-grout and replace the broken tiles. There are only three chipped tiles around the edges, so not a big deal.

[zappalot]

@Wildrover9999  In Germany I know pools 35 years and older. No grout issues, of course pH never drops below 7...

 

So if you have grout issues: how do you know a swimming pool company is doing a good job? I would heavily doubt what they are doing...

 

So far in 10 years I never met a Thai pretending to be a swimming pool professional who had even basic knowledge about the subject...

Edited September 13, 2021 by zappalot

[Speedhump]

On 9/4/2021 at 10:36 PM, Saanim said:

^ Yes, to repair just the damaged tiles is OK.

 

As of the grouting, it has to be noted that the grouting is affected  by a lower value of pH (acidic) that is often recommended in order to assure a good effectiveness of chlorine should the chlorine be the only protection against algae.  If we have other means against algae, the chlorine does not need to be so strong - just for protection against gems. Then also the pH does not be to be maintained so low as recommended (near to 7.2). 

 

I do not care the whole year about pH measurement - when checked just from a curiosity it is mostly near 8 - and the water is clear every day. And the tiles, the cheapest one (kitchen tiles as some here like to say) and the grouting made by the cheapest cement with a bit of waterproof addition (as can be bought at the village hardware shop) - are with no visible deterioration after 15 years.       

I have never seen a recommendation of 7.2 pH. 

 

7.5-7.6 is a good level for a tiled pool. 7.4 is low. At 7.2 I doubt any pool cleaning robot would be able to get enough purchase even to climb a wall! And pH should definitely be checked weekly at a minimum as it affects pool chems stability. 

[MrJ2U]

Grout usually needs replacing after roughly 5 years.  

 

Depending on where you live you may have to order it.

 

Get good pool grout.

 

Have everything ready to go.  You don't want an empty pool for long.

 

Good time to replace any broken or stained tiles.

 

Good luck.

 

 

[RocketDog]

On 9/4/2021 at 9:36 AM, Bagwain said:

Sounds like a regrout is in order.

We always drum test the tiles and re-glue any loose ones.

Only time you really need to empty a pool is for repairs/reno or if the <deleted> (Total Dissolved Solids) are over 1500 ppm.

Even then a partial dump and fill will do it. However if you do regular backwashes it would normally take care of this.

Why not consider a resurface with PebbleCrete. Hardest surface on the market, gets better with age and has 5 yr product warranty.

www.pebblecrete.com 

 

 

I looked at the site you linked, but am dubious about the value statement they make.

On my pool the walkway around the edge of the pool, AND three steps down into the pool, which are completely submerged, show no signs of damage or cracks in my 11+ year pool here.

 

I recently cut a 3" wide x 2" deep notch to install the pipe across the walkway surface for a simple water level regulator that keeps the pool filled all the time. My DIY neighbor helped me fill and resurface the notch with something he called 'Sand Wash'. It is quite obviously some type of cement with small sand particles in it. Looks very similar to the 'Pebblecrete'. We troweled it into the notch and after it cured for about two hours we simply washed/brushed the surface lightly to bring out the texture. Again, very similar to what PebbleCrete recommends in their applications guide.

 

Now, I'm  pretty ignorant of swimming pools and their care. The first time I've had a pool is when I bought this house two years ago. I know the Thai pool guy measures and treats the water twice a week and maintains pH above 7. It is a saltwater pool.

 

The pool has small ~4" tiles and to my knowledge has never been re-grouted. A few of the grout lines immediately adjacent to the water level of the pools show some erosion, but none that are continuously submerged. I might add that my neighbor did re-grout his pool a few months ago, but he is also the one who says that my chlorine generator salt cell collects calcium deposits so rapidly because my pH is too high; he maintains his lower (more acidic) than mine. Also, PebbleCrete notes that one way to bring out the pebble surface during curing is to use acid brushes on it. Hmmm.

 

I did not inquire about the cost of the PebbleCrete material itself, but 'sandwash' material was cheap. Those areas that have the sandwash treatment are about two inches thick, including the submerged steps. I don't know the recommended thickness for the PebbleCrete but the site noted that it must be applied by professionals, with several warnings about how it might show cracks and other failure modes depending on what pool surfaces it is applied to. They noted that of the several ways it can fail, none of these were due to their particular product. After using the sandwash product, I can see how troweling it onto a vertical surface could be problematic because of its relatively low viscosity. Naturally I wonder how PebbleCrete deals with this issue. Is that where their professional applicators come in?

 

My mostly inexperienced conclusions:

• Tiles work for a long time and can be quite aesthetic. They are easily replaced if cracked. They are commodity products, readily available, and application practice is well known.
• Grout can and does erode eventually, especially in low pH pools.
• If pH slightly higher that neutral (7.0) then this degradation is very slow.
• Sandwashed surfaces show no degradation even when continually submerged.
• It does not seem to me that Pebblewash offers any advantages unless the material and installation costs are extremely competitive with tiles and/or re-grouting. Even then, it is not a mainstream product. The 5 year warranty is not inspiring.
• Some people may simply prefer the monolithic aesthetics of PebbleCrete. I prefer the tiled look.
• I'll stick with my tiled pool and re-grout when and if that actually becomes necessary.

 

That said, I have no experience with PebbleCrete so I'm just telling it like I see it.

Sandwash surfaces apparently survive as readily as the PebbleCrete claims.

 

Thanks for bringing this interesting product to my attention though.

 

[Bagwain]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

I looked at the site you linked, but am dubious about the value statement they make.

On my pool the walkway around the edge of the pool, AND three steps down into the pool, which are completely submerged, show no signs of damage or cracks in my 11+ year pool here.

 

I recently cut a 3" wide x 2" deep notch to install the pipe across the walkway surface for a simple water level regulator that keeps the pool filled all the time. My DIY neighbor helped me fill and resurface the notch with something he called 'Sand Wash'. It is quite obviously some type of cement with small sand particles in it. Looks very similar to the 'Pebblecrete'. We troweled it into the notch and after it cured for about two hours we simply washed/brushed the surface lightly to bring out the texture. Again, very similar to what PebbleCrete recommends in their applications guide.

 

Now, I'm  pretty ignorant of swimming pools and their care. The first time I've had a pool is when I bought this house two years ago. I know the Thai pool guy measures and treats the water twice a week and maintains pH above 7. It is a saltwater pool.

 

The pool has small ~4" tiles and to my knowledge has never been re-grouted. A few of the grout lines immediately adjacent to the water level of the pools show some erosion, but none that are continuously submerged. I might add that my neighbor did re-grout his pool a few months ago, but he is also the one who says that my chlorine generator salt cell collects calcium deposits so rapidly because my pH is too high; he maintains his lower (more acidic) than mine. Also, PebbleCrete notes that one way to bring out the pebble surface during curing is to use acid brushes on it. Hmmm.

 

I did not inquire about the cost of the PebbleCrete material itself, but 'sandwash' material was cheap. Those areas that have the sandwash treatment are about two inches thick, including the submerged steps. I don't know the recommended thickness for the PebbleCrete but the site noted that it must be applied by professionals, with several warnings about how it might show cracks and other failure modes depending on what pool surfaces it is applied to. They noted that of the several ways it can fail, none of these were due to their particular product. After using the sandwash product, I can see how troweling it onto a vertical surface could be problematic because of its relatively low viscosity. Naturally I wonder how PebbleCrete deals with this issue. Is that where their professional applicators come in?

 

My mostly inexperienced conclusions:

• Tiles work for a long time and can be quite aesthetic. They are easily replaced if cracked. They are commodity products, readily available, and application practice is well known.
• Grout can and does erode eventually, especially in low pH pools.
• If pH slightly higher that neutral (7.0) then this degradation is very slow.
• Sandwashed surfaces show no degradation even when continually submerged.
• It does not seem to me that Pebblewash offers any advantages unless the material and installation costs are extremely competitive with tiles and/or re-grouting. Even then, it is not a mainstream product. The 5 year warranty is not inspiring.
• Some people may simply prefer the monolithic aesthetics of PebbleCrete. I prefer the tiled look.
• I'll stick with my tiled pool and re-grout when and if that actually becomes necessary.

 

That said, I have no experience with PebbleCrete so I'm just telling it like I see it.

Sandwash surfaces apparently survive as readily as the PebbleCrete claims.

 

Thanks for bringing this interesting product to my attention though.

 

"That said, I have no experience with PebbleCrete so I'm just telling it like I see it.

Sandwash surfaces apparently survive as readily as the PebbleCrete claims".

 

Two completly different animals/products.

Sandwash uses normal cement & PebbleCrete uses Portland White cement.

Sandwash has sand in the mix. The weakest part of the chain. It degrades easily with corrosive pool water!

PebbleCrete uses quartz crystal. Number 8 on the hardness scale, diamond being 10!

That is why a 5 yr product warranty can be given.

PebbleCrete and it variants are used in most water parks worldwide for this reason.

The acid washing that is done is completely different than the sandwash!

With over 30 yrs in the pool industry, I can attest that PebbleCrete is the best pool surface product on the market bar none! So the claim is not dibious by any means!

Also gets better with age as brushing polishes the crystal!

Yes, it needs professional application otherwise no warranty!

The last pool we renovated the customers responce (I will never have a tiled pool again)

 

Calcium scaling in the salt cell has little to do with pH.

Here is a recent refurb we did in Hua Hin.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Bagwain

[RocketDog]

7 hours ago, Bagwain said:

"That said, I have no experience with PebbleCrete so I'm just telling it like I see it.

Sandwash surfaces apparently survive as readily as the PebbleCrete claims".

 

Two completly different animals/products.

Sandwash uses normal cement & PebbleCrete uses Portland White cement.

Sandwash has sand in the mix. The weakest part of the chain. It degrades easily with corrosive pool water!

PebbleCrete uses quartz crystal. Number 8 on the hardness scale, diamond being 10!

That is why a 5 yr product warranty can be given.

PebbleCrete and it variants are used in most water parks worldwide for this reason.

The acid washing that is done is completely different than the sandwash!

With over 30 yrs in the pool industry, I can attest that PebbleCrete is the best pool surface product on the market bar none! So the claim is not dibious by any means!

Also gets better with age as brushing polishes the crystal!

Yes, it needs professional application otherwise no warranty!

The last pool we renovated the customers responce (I will never have a tiled pool again)

 

Calcium scaling in the salt cell has little to do with pH.

Here is a recent refurb we did in Hua Hin.

 

 

 

 

I can see from you photos and the video that the PebbleCrete surface is considerably more attractive than 'Sandwash', no doubt. I'm sure you are correct about the cement used in both being different.

  Although I can accept the Pebble being superior, I am still impressed with (what appears to be Sandwash) steps and pool deck after over 11 years. Now I'm curious if the pool deck used a better product than what my neighbor and I installed. It's also easy to believe that quartz is better than sand, which does contain some quartz itself of course.

 

I've attached some pictures showing the steps and other portions of my pool that are continuously submerged for reference. It's also easy to believe that low pH water will degrade lots of materials too.  Notice the hairline cracks in the pool decking. I assume this is from settling and may not occur again if resurfaced. Or repairs need to be done before the new surface is applied.

 

As for the calcium scale in the cell, what do you think is causing that?

 

I am located just outside of Huahin in Pranburi, so would like to get a quote from you for my pool. You can get an idea of the pool size and construction from my pix.

I'm ready to be a believer but need a bit more info. As an engineer my training has taught to be curious and careful, even skeptical, about product claims. Don't take my replies as offensive. Hey, if nothing else you got in some free advertising!!

 

Feel free to contact me PM when you have time for taking this further. I'm retired so available pretty much all the time.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Bagwain]

17 hours ago, RocketDog said:

I can see from you photos and the video that the PebbleCrete surface is considerably more attractive than 'Sandwash', no doubt. I'm sure you are correct about the cement used in both being different.

  Although I can accept the Pebble being superior, I am still impressed with (what appears to be Sandwash) steps and pool deck after over 11 years. Now I'm curious if the pool deck used a better product than what my neighbor and I installed. It's also easy to believe that quartz is better than sand, which does contain some quartz itself of course.

 

I've attached some pictures showing the steps and other portions of my pool that are continuously submerged for reference. It's also easy to believe that low pH water will degrade lots of materials too.  Notice the hairline cracks in the pool decking. I assume this is from settling and may not occur again if resurfaced. Or repairs need to be done before the new surface is applied.

 

As for the calcium scale in the cell, what do you think is causing that?

 

I am located just outside of Huahin in Pranburi, so would like to get a quote from you for my pool. You can get an idea of the pool size and construction from my pix.

I'm ready to be a believer but need a bit more info. As an engineer my training has taught to be curious and careful, even skeptical, about product claims. Don't take my replies as offensive. Hey, if nothing else you got in some free advertising!!

 

Feel free to contact me PM when you have time for taking this further. I'm retired so available pretty much all the time.

Thanks for your reply.

 

PM sent

The calcium build up on the salt cell is due to the electrolysis that is going on to create the chlorine gas.

Most machines have reverse polarity process built in that dislodges the scalling.

However quite often it is not enough and they have to be manually cleaned. 

20/30% acid to water for a couple of minutes & then dishwashing liquid to remove oil & grease.

The later is the worst culprit for reducing the output of chlorine!

 

[RocketDog]

Just now, Bagwain said:

PM sent

The calcium build up on the salt cell is due to the electrolysis that is going on to create the chlorine gas.

Most machines have reverse polarity process built in that dislodges the scalling.

However quite often it is not enough and they have to be manually cleaned. 

20/30% acid to water for a couple of minutes & then dishwashing liquid to remove oil & grease.

The later is the worst culprit for reducing the output of chlorine!

 

Thanks. Good tip.  I got some 30% HCl from the pool guy and dilute it to break up the deposits once a month. (yes, I always add acid to water, not the other way around. And wear goggles. My father was a chemist.) I only soak a few minutes then use soft sticks to physically dislodge the pieces. I've tried vinegar, and it works, but takes hours.

I never thought to wash with soap though, good tip. Our pool doesn't get much use though so I'd guess we don't have much of a lipid problem. Still, an easy step.

 

We have a famous brand salt system and the cell is less than two years old, so it is what it is I guess. I think it reverses electrode polarity continually using a low frequency square wave bipolar drive. Circulation pump replaced only 4 months ago as well, so good flow rate.

 

I'll get to your PM now.

Thanks

[Saanim]

On 9/15/2021 at 4:11 PM, Speedhump said:

I have never seen a recommendation of 7.2 pH. 

Perhaps you have not seen many recommendations, sometimes can be seen even here.

 

Mostly, when pool forums are owned by pool shop owners advising the desperate pool owners crying: "Help, my water is green". Then, the first aid is: lower the pH and make chlorine shock.  

[Bagwain]

2 hours ago, Saanim said:

Perhaps you have not seen many recommendations, sometimes can be seen even here.

 

Mostly, when pool forums are owned by pool shop owners advising the desperate pool owners crying: "Help, my water is green". Then, the first aid is: lower the pH and make chlorine shock.  

Again totally unqualified backyard advice!

What type of chlorine & how to reduce pH?

What caused it in the first place is also very important. (This could be many reasons)

What is you beef against people that have invested in businesses and just happen to know a dam lot more than you!

Give it a miss!

 

[Saanim]

6 hours ago, Bagwain said:

What is you beef against people that have invested in businesses and just happen to know a dam lot more than you! 

Give it a miss!

I do not sell no beef ???? with my 15 years backyard experience. And I do not reduce pH, actually I couldn't care less about the pH value.  

 

And actually, I couldn't care less either how much more you know, could I? I surely will not miss it... 

 

  

[Wildrover9999]

On 9/16/2021 at 5:07 PM, RocketDog said:

I can see from you photos and the video that the PebbleCrete surface is considerably more attractive than 'Sandwash', no doubt. I'm sure you are correct about the cement used in both being different.

  Although I can accept the Pebble being superior, I am still impressed with (what appears to be Sandwash) steps and pool deck after over 11 years. Now I'm curious if the pool deck used a better product than what my neighbor and I installed. It's also easy to believe that quartz is better than sand, which does contain some quartz itself of course.

 

I've attached some pictures showing the steps and other portions of my pool that are continuously submerged for reference. It's also easy to believe that low pH water will degrade lots of materials too.  Notice the hairline cracks in the pool decking. I assume this is from settling and may not occur again if resurfaced. Or repairs need to be done before the new surface is applied.

 

As for the calcium scale in the cell, what do you think is causing that?

 

I am located just outside of Huahin in Pranburi, so would like to get a quote from you for my pool. You can get an idea of the pool size and construction from my pix.

I'm ready to be a believer but need a bit more info. As an engineer my training has taught to be curious and careful, even skeptical, about product claims. Don't take my replies as offensive. Hey, if nothing else you got in some free advertising!!

 

Feel free to contact me PM when you have time for taking this further. I'm retired so available pretty much all the time.

Thanks for your reply.

 

That's a lovely pool you have there.........my tiles appear to be the exact same as yours, but the grouting has degraded more than yours, after 8 years. Thanks everyone for the great advice here, much appreciated. I am going to drain and re-grout next month when I have shipped the kids back off to Ireland after the Christmas holidays. 

[Bagwain]

We just finished this pool at Lake Mabprachan. Now we are starting on the neighbours.

Both have opted for the PuraPool "Oxy Minerale" sanitation system using pink Himalayan salts. Great for the skin & a fresh water bathing experience!

This pool has unusually big & deep *not uncommon though" grout lines. (Took 8 buckets of Weber) I guessed 6. 

This pool the steps & coping where stuffed! Steps as usual, where full of water which meant drilling a hole and letting the drain. (Very common)

Pump roon demolished and rebuilt bigger.

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by Bagwain

[Saanim]

13 hours ago, Wildrover9999 said:

my tiles appear to be the exact same as yours, but the grouting has degraded more than yours, after 8 years.

These small tiles look really nice in the pool.  However, wherever I see such pool - also the one with mosaic tiles - it always was confirmed it had to be re-grouted within 5 - 8 years, sometimes re-tiled.

 

With my large "kitchen tiles" it has not been the case within 15 years, and counting.  Even if I see some tiles were not perfect grouted, the ratio of the grouts to the tile area is much smaller, the problem of the grout do not influence adhesiveness of the tile as is the case at the smaller tiles.  (my backyard experience. ????)

[Bagwain]

7 hours ago, Saanim said:

These small tiles look really nice in the pool.  However, wherever I see such pool - also the one with mosaic tiles - it always was confirmed it had to be re-grouted within 5 - 8 years, sometimes re-tiled.

 

With my large "kitchen tiles" it has not been the case within 15 years, and counting.  Even if I see some tiles were not perfect grouted, the ratio of the grouts to the tile area is much smaller, the problem of the grout do not influence adhesiveness of the tile as is the case at the smaller tiles.  (my backyard experience. ????)

50/50

But heavy on the B/S side of better!

Mosiac are not appropriate for pool surfaces for many reasons!

The glaze on your tiles would be completly gone! 

Probably no grout left as well!

You generalise from 1 pool when I can attest to 100's! 

What are you trying to PROOVE?

Go to the DIY <deleted>! ????????????

 

 

 

[Saanim]

20 hours ago, Bagwain said:

50/50

But heavy on the B/S side of better!

Mosiac are not appropriate for pool surfaces for many reasons!

The glaze on your tiles would be completly gone! 

Probably no grout left as well!

You generalise from 1 pool when I can attest to 100's! 

What are you trying to PROOVE?

Go to the DIY <deleted>! ????????????

 

 

 

How do you read my posts? I do not have "mosiac" tiles, I do have "kitchen tiles" with glaze that after 15 years is not in least affected, why should it be "completly gone"? 

I did not know that this forum is only for "profesionals".  

I am not trying to "PROOVE" anything, nor selling anything. Just describing my backyard experience,

 

 

[James William]

If you only replace a few tiles along the top edge, you don't need to drain water to expose the area. If you want to redo your pool, you should drain the water and let it sit for a day or two.