Carbs or protein for breakfast?

[Sparktrader]

In conclusion, the present study indicated that intermittent fasting reduces liver weight and rewires liver metabolism in mice. This may partially contribute to the health benefits of fasting and provides approaches for therapeutic intervention in chronic diseases, such as non-alcoholic fatty liver disease.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8290466/

 

 

[Sparktrader]

 

Benefits of a 7-day fast.

• autophagy (the body's natural detox process that clears out damaged cells and creates new ones)
• blood sugar control.
• reduced inflammation.
• improved heart health (thanks to lower blood pressure, triglycerides, and cholesterol levels)
• increased brain function.

[Sparktrader]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/

 

More science

 

Following 24 hours of food restriction, individual autophagosomes could be detected as discrete regions of high fluorescence, and autophagosomes were even more abundant after 48 hours.

[Sparktrader]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24905167/

 

2014 study found that 72-hour fasting led to a near-complete rejuvenation of the immune system. Fasting triggered stem cell production, creating brand new immune cells to replace old ones[*].

The same study also had cancer patients fast throughout chemotherapy treatment. Normally, chemotherapy devastates the immune system, increasing the risk of infection and illness for cancer patients.

But when patients fasted during chemo, their immune system stayed strong throughout the process.

[Sparktrader]

Stage 3 - 18 Hours Fasting

By 18 hours you’ve switched to fat-burning mode and are generating significant ketones (Anton et al., Obesity 2018).

Stage 4 - 24 Hours Fasting

Within 24 hours your cells are increasingly recycling old components and breaking down misfolded proteins linked to alzheimers and other diseases (Alirezaei et al., Autophagy 2010). This is the process called autophagy which we need to begin immune system regeneration.

Stage 5 - 48 Hours Fasting

By 48 hours fasting without any/ very few calories, carbs or protein, your growth hormone level has increased up to five times higher than when you started your fast (Hartman et al.,1992).

Stage 6 - 54 Hours Fasting

By 54 hours your insulin has dropped to its lowest level point since you started fasting and your body is becoming increasingly insulin-sensitive (Klein et al., 1993). This is where those with type 2 diabetes (insulin insensitivity) begin to see the body naturally re-sensitise to insulin. 

Stage 7 - 72 Hours Fasting

By 72 hours water fasting your body is breaking down old immune cells and generating new ones (Cheng et al., 2014).

 

 

https://thebrothersgreen.co/blogs/learn-more/steps-to-a-successful-water-fast

 

[Sparktrader]

Started a 72 hr fast today.

[eezergood]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:57 PM, 2009 said:

Where do you get your sodium, potassium, and magnesium?

coconut water 

[partington]

On 4/12/2022 at 2:14 PM, Sparktrader said:

Essentially, fasting cleanses our body of toxins and forces cells into processes that are not usually stimulated when a steady stream of fuel from food is always present. When we fast, the body does not have its usual access to glucose, forcing the cells to resort to other means and materials to produce energy.

First sentence has no relation to the second.

 

All your references are just cherry picking possible beneficial effects of fasting and calling them "detox", whatever their nature.  Eliminating dead cells, increasing insulin sensitivity, increasing hormone levels , and cells using alternative energy sources than glucose (e.g fatty acids, ketones, ) have no connection whatsoever with the non-existent process of "detox".

 

Processed foods don't leave a mystical residue in your body that you detoxify by fasting: that's rubbish.

[KannikaP]

I am so happy I have no allergies, nothing I eat or drink bothers me. 74 years old, 75 kg, BP 125/80. 

[Sparktrader]

21 hours ago, partington said:

First sentence has no relation to the second.

 

All your references are just cherry picking possible beneficial effects of fasting and calling them "detox", whatever their nature.  Eliminating dead cells, increasing insulin sensitivity, increasing hormone levels , and cells using alternative energy sources than glucose (e.g fatty acids, ketones, ) have no connection whatsoever with the non-existent process of "detox".

 

Processed foods don't leave a mystical residue in your body that you detoxify by fasting: that's rubbish.

Nonsense. Creating new and replacing old is what detox is. Thats the whole point.

 

 

[Sparktrader]

21 hours ago, partington said:

All your references are just cherry picking possible beneficial effects of fasting and calling them "detox

Wrong. Most studies show fasting is good for you. Not cherry picking at all when 95% of the trees say the same thing.

 

Cherry picking is ignoring the 95% and picking the 5%.

[BigStar]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:24 PM, KannikaP said:

I am so happy I have no allergies, nothing I eat or drink bothers me. 74 years old, 75 kg, BP 125/80. 

Slight elevated BP. Could be something is bothering you. We could help you more if you'd provide these numbers: RHR (resting heart rate), FBG (fasting blood glucose), HbA1C, Triglyceride/HDL ratio, waist-to-height ratio, and a list of the meds you're taking.

 

 

[KannikaP]

1 hour ago, BigStar said:

Slight elevated BP. Could be something is bothering you. We could help you more if you'd provide these numbers: RHR (resting heart rate), FBG (fasting blood glucose), HbA1C, Triglyceride/HDL ratio, waist-to-height ratio, and a list of the meds you're taking.

 

 

The only thing REALLY bothering me is whether Man City will win today, and also the Premiership.

I take my BP every morning & night. Average 125/80 . RHR is average 52, FBS = 102, Triglyceride = 122, HDL = 37, LDL = 83, At my waist of 95 I should be 190 tall but I am only 177! 

Amlodepine 10mg/day, Bestatin, Baby aspirin, Micardis = 20mg. & Doxadozin for BHP. PSA = 5.4.

Also Saw Palmettow, turmeric, & Royal Jelly. A daily glass of red vino. One cuppa tea in the morning and a coffee at 11am, no more. I eat reasonably healthily. Not too much exercise though.

Now, what help do I need please?

[BigStar]

On 4/16/2022 at 11:10 AM, KannikaP said:

The only thing REALLY bothering me is whether Man City will win today, and also the Premiership.

I take my BP every morning & night. Average 125/80 . RHR is average 52, FBS = 102, Triglyceride = 122, HDL = 37, LDL = 83, At my waist of 95 I should be 190 tall but I am only 177! 

Amlodepine 10mg/day, Bestatin, Baby aspirin, Micardis = 20mg. & Doxadozin for BHP. PSA = 5.4.

Also Saw Palmettow, turmeric, & Royal Jelly. A daily glass of red vino. One cuppa tea in the morning and a coffee at 11am, no more. I eat reasonably healthily. Not too much exercise though.

Now, what help do I need please?

Me, I need no meds and take only a few vitamins, protein powder, and creatine (recommended). So I had to look these up. ‘Course, I’m a year younger than you, after all. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Amlodepine – needed to lower otherwise high blood pressure. 

 

No wonder your BP’s only slightly elevated and check it morning and night. Sorry, but that indicates worry. Mine’s around 108/70, and I check it maybe once every couple months if I happen to think about it

. 
Normal blood pressure is defined by pressure below 120/80, whereas an optimal and healthier blood pressure is closer to 110/70.  
     --Optimal blood pressure helps our brains age slower
 

Bestatin – needed to reduce worry over high cholesterol. 
Baby aspirin – previous stroke or heart attack?
Micardis, Doxadozin – also antihypertensive drugs that may affect BP. 

 

Your RHR seems quite low for your age. Is that natural, or a side effect? Always been that low? Mine’s been around 53 for the last 40 years. 

 

And you’re somewhat overweight but aren’t worried about that. 

 

I’d suggest the worry about LDL is misplaced relative to what should be more worrisome: the high triglyceride/HDL ratio. 

 

 

A low ratio of triglycerides/HDL means a low risk of heart disease even when LDL is high. If you have a high ratio, you have higher risk even with low LDL. Triglyceride/HDL ratio is strongly related to insulin resistance.

 

 

     --Low Triglycerides–High High-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol and Risk of Ischemic Heart Disease

 

And so that’s why I keep my ratio below 1:1, latest .71. 

 

--Alan Watson

And you see where you are at 3.3. This study used 3.5 as a cutoff:

 

     --Triglyceride–to–High-Density-Lipoprotein-Cholesterol Ratio Is an Index of Heart Disease Mortality and of Incidence of Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus in Men

 

And related it to diabetes. Not coincidentally your FBS suggests prediabetes, another worry.

Note that even people without diabetes, in the top quartile (fourth) of fasting insulin, had about double the risk of dying from cardiovascular disease, 

 

 

     --Plasma insulin and cardiovascular mortality in non-diabetic European men and women: a meta-analysis of data from eleven prospective studies

I’d suggest you get an OGTT, as things may be worse than they seem. Evidence implicates insulin resistance at the root of many lipids issues (and more). In one study, a single glucose tolerance test predicted major coronary heart disease events over 22 years.

 

A normal score on a fasting glucose test or even an HbA1c doesn’t actually confer a high degree of certainty. In fact, one can be insulin resistant years before tests finally reveal that the ol' pancreas can no longer deal with all the glucose. Dr. Sarah Hallberg makes this very point at her TEDx talk here. https://youtu.be/da1vvigy5tQ?t=161. (Sadly, Dr. Hallberg lost her 5-year battle with lung cancer on March 28, 2022.) Somewhere between 16 – 25% of normal weight American adults are insulin resistant without even knowing. More than 80% of those with prediabetes don’t know they have it. 

 

Common sense would dictate that it’d be better to avoid the cumulative effect of glucose spikes and stress to one’s pancreas in the first place. More details on this unpalatable kickers-twisting subject in some other thread. 

Ironically, just as an aside, higher TC looks better than lower, come to the all-mortality rate:

 

 

Well, folks tend to think getting older means you inevitably have all these lipids issues (metabolic syndrome) and need to start running to docs and get on the usual meds starting in your 50s or 60s to deal the symptoms rather than underlying causes. Not so, lifestyle can make all the difference. For anyone. 

In fact those worries could be mitigated and ended, mortality compressed, via the ol’--wait for it--diet & exercise. A low carb diet’s particularly good in this respect, with cardio and resistance training. 

So that’s the help. It'll have to do for now--from me; no doubt our Nutritionists will be along soon with their own expert assessments.????   

 
Parenthetically, I’d up the tea and coffee by another cup a day, hit the dark chocolate daily (Hershey’s Natural cocoa, Lindt 85%), and get in the sun (UV > 3, around noon) for around 15 -20 min a few times a week, shirtless. I find regular walks on the beach helpful, fine scenery out there. Yeah, sun, steak, and steel, as P. D. Mangan says. And sex, my Thai gf always adds. So cute. We'll probably have a recommendation for apple cider vinegar soon.???? Never did a thing for me.

 

BTW, there’s also the issue of blood clots in the sedentary, notably those sitting around watching footie. Oh—aspirin, right? I wouldn’t.

New research found that the risks of daily aspirin begin to outweigh the benefits starting at age 60. Specifically, the risk of aspirin causing potentially life-threatening bleeding in the brain or gastrointestinal tract increases with age. 

     --Daily aspirin no longer recommended for some
 

Clot risk needs to be taken seriously, though, as you know. One of the easier issues to prevent, fortunately, without any of the risks of aspirin. Maybe stop using the treadmill as a clothes hanger. 

 

I congratulate you on your honesty and candor, @KannikaP, after an initially somewhat misleading post. Too often in these threads we have smug epicureans waddle in clutching a totemic bottle of Chang and a strip of street Kamagra to pooh-pooh the need for any dieting or exercise. But they also refuse to reveal--and to stop taking-- the meds they depend on to keep them still alive. Now we did have a case recently of swaggering beer and sex turning into—fasting, LOL. Not surprisingly, some will show up in the Pub later on confessing despondency ("somber thaughts") and in the Health forum seeking advice before they . . . vanish . . . .

 

 

[Hummin]

11 minutes ago, BigStar said:

No wonder your BP’s only slightly elevated and check it morning and night. Sorry, but that indicates worry. Mine’s around 108/70, and I check it maybe once every couple months if I happen to think about it

. 
Normal blood pressure is defined by pressure below 120/80, whereas an optimal and healthier blood pressure is closer to 110/70.  
     --Optimal blood pressure helps our brains age slower
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I always thought normal blood pressure was related to age? And not Ideal 20 year old.

 

I got around 120/80 but depended who is measuring. Always have to do it two times at Bangkok Hospital before I'm happy, sometimes 3.

 

You seems to be at the lower end

 

[BigStar]

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I always thought normal blood pressure was related to age? And not Ideal 20 year old.

Ultimately related to cardiovascular condition, not age per se. That condition can and usually does degrade along with other biomarkers as people age, to the delight of the medical and pharma industries. The rate of inevitable decline into morbidity is the issue at question--or should be, IMO. So one can maintain, and enjoy, a condition more typical of youth for a longer time, say a decade or more, by a healthy lifestyle or choose to treat the symptoms via beta blockers etc. and prolong the period of medication and, ultimately suffering that often begins in the 50s nowadays.   

[KannikaP]

26 minutes ago, BigStar said:

No wonder your BP’s only slightly elevated and check it morning and night. Sorry, but that indicates worry. Mine’s around 108/70, and I check it maybe once every couple months if I happen to think about it

Worry, what me worry. You seem to be the one who's worried about almost everything.

 

28 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Micardis, Doxadozin – also antihypertensive drugs that may affect BP. 

Yes, they affect it by LOWERING it.

 

28 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Maybe stop using the treadmill as a clothes hanger. 

How do you know that I have one, and what I use it for?

 

By the way, what qualifications do you have for giving all this advice please?

[BigStar]

Just now, KannikaP said:

How do you know that I have one, and what I use it for?

You had mentioned it earlier in a thread quite some time ago in which someone asked about getting a treadmill or somesuch. No doubt you were joking about the clothes hanger bit.???? Which was useful. Still, there's a point here, as you know. 

 

5 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

By the way, what qualifications do you have for giving all this advice please?

We don't need no qualifications here, of course. We all born knowing.???? In fact, should someone foolishly mention any qualification, it will often lead to a round of sneers. You may, however, check the qualifications in the sources I gave you. They look pretty sound to me. Suppose they're only 80% correct. Good 'nuff? 

[Hummin]

16 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Ultimately related to cardiovascular condition, not age per se. That condition can and usually does degrade along with other biomarkers as people age, to the delight of the medical and pharma industries. The rate of inevitable decline into morbidity is the issue at question--or should be, IMO. So one can maintain, and enjoy, a condition more typical of youth for a longer time, say a decade or more, by a healthy lifestyle or choose to treat the symptoms via beta blockers etc. and prolong the period of medication and, ultimately suffering that often begins in the 50s nowadays.   

It is the total picture we should look at, and also changes that comes with diet, lifestyle and also if medication is used.

 

My intention is to keep an healthy lifestyle, and check every 6 months if everything is ok. 

 

But again, some live happier on the edge but still inside norm

[KannikaP]

11 minutes ago, BigStar said:

You had mentioned it earlier in a thread quite some time ago in which someone asked about getting a treadmill or somesuch

What meds do you take for your memory?   LOL

[KannikaP]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

My intention is to keep an healthy lifestyle, and check every 6 months if everything is ok.

And just hope you don't kick it in 3 months.

[Hummin]

1 minute ago, KannikaP said:

And just hope you don't kick it in 3 months.

Normal for my age is an check up every year if no symptoms or changes ????

[KannikaP]

27 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Normal for my age is an check up every year if no symptoms or changes ????

But high BP is called the 'silent killer' because if you do not keep a regular check on it.........it can be bye bye.

ECG, X-ray, blood tests every year as well.

[Hummin]

1 minute ago, KannikaP said:

But high BP is called the 'silent killer' because if you do not keep a regular check on it.........it can be bye bye.

ECG, X-ray, blood tests every year as well.

Blood pressure in normal cases do not change without a reason. As said if you live healthy, do not feel any difference, and no symptoms, no reason to check to often for my age.

 

Regularly work out, and I would  have felt that straight away, especially lifting heavy weight doing squats for an example, or one hour steep hill walking

[rott]

I thought pre-Diabetes started at 110 Big Star.? 

[JeffersLos]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:39 AM, Saltire said:

eat one more LCHF meal around 2 PM then don't eat till breakfast next day.

Sounds fantastic.

 

I can't imagine how you manage to keep off the weight. ????

[BigStar]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:47 AM, rott said:

I thought pre-Diabetes started at 110 Big Star.? 

From https://www.diabetes.org/diabetes/a1c/diagnosis, reputable source:

Other sources:

https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/pre-diabetes

https://www.medicinenet.com/is_a_glucose_level_of_101_bad/article.htm

https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/basics/getting-tested.html

 

You may see the more congenial 110 around, but I'd go with the usual figure and take it very seriously--meaning adopting a healthier lifestyle rather than hitting metaformin. Medications often have the effect of making the underlying condition even worse and leading to the need for more and stronger medications. Such is the case w/ the progression of diabetes.

 

[rott]

7 hours ago, BigStar said:

From https://www.diabetes.org/diabetes/a1c/diagnosis, reputable source:

Other sources:

https://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/pre-diabetes

https://www.medicinenet.com/is_a_glucose_level_of_101_bad/article.htm

https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/basics/getting-tested.html

 

You may see the more congenial 110 around, but I'd go with the usual figure and take it very seriously--meaning adopting a healthier lifestyle rather than hitting metaformin. Medications often have the effect of making the underlying condition even worse and leading to the need for more and stronger medications. Such is the case w/ the progression of diabetes.

 

It puzzled me because wherever I've had my blood tested they have always said pre diabetes 110 - 125. I was feeling smug because my last test 101. It has for years been between 100 - 110.

Ah well.

Thanks for the info. 

[robblok]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:56 PM, BigStar said:

Me, I need no meds and take only a few vitamins, protein powder, and creatine (recommended). So I had to look these up. ‘Course, I’m a year younger than you, after all. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Did not think you would take protein powder or creatine. For its just an easy way to keep protein high while keeping calories low. I don't think its has magical properties. I had a nice protein powder that would when added to my oatmeal in the morning solidify it nicely. It was isolate, but Isolate from other brands and normal whey did not seem to do the same thing. 

 

Unfortunately they stopped producing banana flavor, now i ordered some strawberry (might not ike it). I just liked my oat breakfast that way, with the other protein powerders it made the oats taste worse ????.

 

Its all a matter of preference and of course i could just drink a shake, but for me it was a nice breakfast that filled me up great and kept me satisfied. 

 

Just curious why were you recommended to take creatine ?. I myself don't use it. I have used it and it seems to work. However it messes up tracking my weight as its hard to estimate how much extra water one holds because of it.

 

But creatine is 100% safe that is for sure. 

[BigStar]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:03 PM, robblok said:

Did not think you would take protein powder or creatine. For its just an easy way to keep protein high while keeping calories low. I don't think its has magical properties.

No, it's more than that. Naive young men believe in magic to get "swole , jacked, ripped, big, bent," but as a rational senior I don't of course. I will play some attention to a body of evidence about something health/fitness related that seems reasonably indicative if it's not too difficult or expensive to apply. And I'll pay attention to a few educated fitness gurus (not bodybuilders) I respect who aren't selling supplements. Quick Google:

 

https://www.consumerreports.org/healthy-eating/how-older-adults-can-meet-their-protein-needs-a8954254493/

 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-benefits-of-creatine

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4304302/

 

I can't compare before/after in the absence of any twin or clone, but I'm satisfied that there's likely been a positive effect over the past decade or so. Never underestimate the power of the placebo, of course, as we're so often reminded here.

 

I'm not overly concerned about the delicacy of my taste buds, one of the biggest pitfalls for our overweight members. And I needn't track my weight closely. It never varies much from the ideal for my height/weight/age/build. No yo-yo weight gains and furious attempts to lose (or gain) weight.