Truth About Visas

[drlawrence]

Reading this forum has made it obvious to me that most people don't understand what visas are. They're a completely unnecessary nonsense. There’s no reason for them at all. They make no sense at all. Here’s why:

Some reasons why immigration is good for rich countries:

1.Most migrants are young, multilingual, bright, highly educated, highly motivated and ambitious. They create millions of jobs whenever they’re allowed to. Eg.Hong Kong (‘country’ of immigrants), USA (country of immigrants)

2.The West has a pensions crisis brewing. Allowing young workers in, is the only way to prevent it from becoming a disaster.

3.Migrants spend money, increasing demand, creating more jobs.

4.Migrants typically do the work that local people don’t want to do. Eg,London’s (a very rich city of immigrants) public transport system would collapse without them.

5.Legal migrants pay tax. Unlike the 500,000 illegals who enter the US and EU every year.

6.The West spends billions of dollars every year on the pointless bureaucracy required for visas.

7.No more wars, free up the world, let it develop freely and fairly, in the most logical way. Free trade in human capital. OK, then don’t. Let’s carry on with endless wars on terrorism which’ll last until someone gets hold of a nuclear weapon.

Some reasons why emmigration is good for poor countries:

1.Migrants send money back home. US$105 billion in 1999.

2.Poor countries have a surplus of unemployed skilled and highly educated workers that they don’t yet need.

3.Migrants get experience and earn money abroad which they use to invest when they return home.

Some reasons why getting rid of visas won’t be a disaster:

1.There is never ever a mass chaotic migration when borders come down. Eg.Fall of Berlin Wall, EU is now 25 countries and where’s the mass migration from Poland and places? It just doesn’t ever happen. Never has and never will

2.Not necessary to give migrants benefits. Tell them they have to live here 5 years before they’re eligible. If they run out of money or need non-urgent health care, make them use their return ticket to go back.

Hope this has made some people understand that visas are a nonsense and that Immigration rules are not just an evil, they’re a hideous evil! Absolutely ridiculous. And it’s people like us who not only understand some of the suffering that visas cause, but seem to accept it. Why?

[ghengis]

The current birth rate in the UK and many European countries is about 1.4 births per femail or 0.7 births per couple. This means that each generation is getting 30% smaller than the previous one.

At this rate after a couple of hundred years (10 generations) there would be only 3% of the current polulation unless there is immigration to offset the decline in population.

[p_brownstone]

The current birth rate in the UK and many European countries is about 1.4 births per femail or 0.7 births per couple. This means that each generation is getting 30% smaller than the previous one.

Surely that should be:

0.7 births per female, 1.4 births per lesbian couple .... with male "assistance" to each of the partners of course!

[maerim]

per femail

Is that a lady postman?

[eyespan]

At this rate after a couple of hundred years (10 generations) there would be only 3% of the current polulation unless there is immigration to offset the decline in population.

won't we all be dead by then?

[ghengis]

"won't we all be dead by then?"

The problem will be before you die. The population of most western countries is aging, which means the ratio of 'working people between 16 and 60' to those over 60 is shrinking fast. There will not be enough young people to pay tax for all those old b*stards who refuse to die before they retire.

European countries are now finding that they cannot afford their generous state funded retirement schemes - hence the demonstrations in France, Germany, Italy etc on pensions.

The solution to this is to reduce pensions (or not increase them in line with average earnings), make people work until they are 70, and cut back on services for those people retiring abroad. For example ...

Pattaya Mail

Vol. XII No. 25

Friday June 18- June 24 , 2004

Proposed cessation of free NHS care to UK expats

The UK Government is expected to stop expatriates getting free care on the NHS this year. People will now have to prove they spend at least six months a year in the country to get free care. The Health Secretary, John Reid, has emphasised that the scheme will be “rigorously applied” even though it still requires parliamentary approval. This has been brought about by the government’s crackdown on health tourism whereby anyone can get free healthcare just by showing some tenuous link to the UK.

Unless some more tax payers can be imported (immigration) the current middle aged population will have a hard time in retirement.

[dkohler]

I have followed this topic recently and I saw that a few countries in Europe (special Germany) have reviewed and redefined their imigration law. The new law should make it easier for imigrants to live and work there. The reason for this is as you have stated out above. The population grow in Europe is very law and without the young generation the country can not live.

As you might know, a poor country has usulay a higher birth rate than a rich one. I gues you know why. I can therfor understand that migration law is harder than in other countries. But I agree, that the thai migration law is quite strechable....

This just a note to think about...

Cheers Dan

[dr_Pat_Pong]

At this rate after a couple of hundred years (10 generations) there would be only 3% of the current polulation unless there is immigration to offset the decline in population.

won't we all be dead by then?

Well ... for absolute certain, you and I will be getting pretty old in 200 years time.

[regpye]

As you might know, a poor country has usulay a higher birth rate than a rich one. I gues you know why.

Yeah! They can't afford TVs so they have more time for other things.

[drlawrence]

You're dead right! We're heading for disaster and we need a revolution quick. But it's more than just a pensions crisis. The other reasons for getting rid of visas and letting people live wherever they want are much more compelling. But it's a question of opening closed, racist and complacent minds.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

You're dead right! We're heading for disaster and we need a revolution quick. But it's more than just a pensions crisis. The other reasons for getting rid of visas and letting people live wherever they want are much more compelling. But it's a question of opening closed, racist and complacent minds.

Are you planning to take on the worlds governments singlehanded, or is it a political entity that you propose to form to undertake the formidable task that you have in mind ?

[anamore]

without wanting to discuss why visas have to stay I just want to share what I watched on tv last evening:

a group of refugees from Somalia where getting prepared to what they would find upon arrival in the USA where they where going to live after having been granted a 5 year visa followd by an american passport.

What kind of preparations do you think where made: language, culture and ways of life? None of it. This people who have lived without food and roof for over some years, no writing reading or other skills where told how to use a sink, a toilet, the flush from the toilet, money: how to exchange it for goods and all kind of other things, all of it basics.

Their arrival in America was a cultureclash. the streets the cars the supermarket the life. It was another world.

At the super they spent 175 dollars. this much money the couple had never earned before. It was like a fortune.

I thought despise the good intentions that it is a bad move to change people from the one to the other side of the world. They never get used to it and their children with an history of relocations and war are already too old to start again.

the people from inner africa who came to europe didn't integrate they remain outsiders and users of the welfarebenefits. This being the nice option because often they just make carreer on crime next to getting welfare.

This also goes for many people from other countries who think you can be rich in europe without doing nothing.

Even when visas wouldn't be needeed anymore most people would not travel just because they barely survive, they have no money and no chances for whatever.

sad but true.

As to disasters and revolutions there are quite some everyday around the world now as before. but mostly it's a turn around and start again om the same path.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't dare to say this but reality is around and only the blind don't see it.

[camel_jockey]

At this rate after a couple of hundred years (10 generations) there would be only 3% of the current polulation unless there is immigration to offset the decline in population.

well with a few less people around, maybe the planet will have a chance at surviving, because at the rate we destroy everything in our path at the moment, there won't be anything left in a few generations time anyway

[dr_Pat_Pong]

You're dead right! We're heading for disaster and we need a revolution quick. But it's more than just a pensions crisis. The other reasons for getting rid of visas and letting people live wherever they want are much more compelling. But it's a question of opening closed, racist and complacent minds.

Pipedreams are devoid of one essential ingredient ... R E A L I T Y

[thaihome]

I thought despise the good intentions that it is a bad move to change people from the one to the other side of the world. They never get used to it and their children with an history of relocations and war are already too old to start again.

the people from inner africa who came to europe didn't integrate they remain outsiders and users of the welfarebenefits. This being the nice option because often they just make carreer on crime next to getting welfare.

This also goes for many people from other countries who think you can be rich in europe without doing nothing.

I'm always amused when Europeans write about their immigrants and problems with them.

I could show the same thing being said in the US about the huge influxes of various European nationalities into the US over the last 150 years or so. The Irish, Poles, Germans, Scandinavians, etc all went through several generations being told they don’t; and never will belong.

TH

[anamore]

Well Thaihome I think you can't compare the situation I describe with the colonisation of north america. In fact if europeans wouldn't have emigrated there would be no USA.

I think the native americans (the indians) would have build a very different country. And it started more than 200 years ago with people who wanted to build a new life in a piece of earth that was (quite) untoutched and wanted to work for it no matter how hard.

They build the fundaments of what the country is today. From politics to religion, from art to arquitecture most of it came from europe.Hispanics and Asiatics came much later in the picture and influenced what already was established by the pioniers.

I think that being American is more than having a passpoort and a certain skincolour. It's a feeling of being part of a country in the world that's a world in itself, and this world (USA) is not easy to catch in a description.

[drlawrence]

It seems that the only actual objections anyone has to the idea that we should dispose of visas are that 1. people from poor countries are simply too uncivilised to live in the West and 2. the idea is just too unrealistic.

I used to live with a Polish girl and the problems with getting her visa to the UK three years ago were absolutely horendous. It cost us a fortune and unthinkable emotional trauma. I was forced to marry her as the only way of being with her.

I used to argue with her that they should just let Poles live wherever they want to live. But she said that it was a absolutely ridiculous idea; the whole of London would be inundated with drunk Poles, they'd break everything, there'd be chaos, they're far too uncivilised, and what about the cultural/language/money problems. A lot of Poles live on less than $100 a month. There's no jobs there. She said that there'd be lorry loads of Poles coming in through Dover every day. This was a Polish person speaking in 2000. She looked at me as if I was a silly, little boy with funny ideas in my head.

Well, two years later Poland is in the EU and Poles now have the right to live and work in the UK without visas. No disaster, no mass migration, just much easier to get barstaff, builders, fashion workers and tradesmen. This is the reality! We need to open our minds!

[maerim]

No disaster, no mass migration, just much easier to get barstaff, builders, fashion workers and tradesmen. This is the reality! We need to open our minds!

In other words cheap labour

[drlawrence]

Well what's wrong with cheap labour? Would you prefer them unemployed in Poland? But actually there's a minimum wage in the UK so they're no cheaper than British labour. And allowing them to work legally and pay tax is obviously much better than having them working illegally, being exploited, living in poverty and in constant fear of the police. Bright, highly educated people shouldn't have to live like that. Also lots of Poles are now starting businesses, creating lots of jobs.

In answer to the question: 'In what form should the revolution take?' most people don't yet have the capacity to think about this issue and they don't understand how serious it is. We need to inform people before starting a political entity. We need best-selling books with perhaps one being made into a movie. I'm trying to write one now. Once, we've started the public debate, then we need some sort of political party.

[maerim]

Well what's wrong with cheap labour?

Why not ask the people who they are undercutting?

They might have one or two things to say about cheap labour.

Good luck with the book, I bet the language you are writing it in is not Polish.

[Darknight]

I thought despise the good intentions that it is a bad move to change people from the one to the other side of the world. They never get used to it and their children with an history of relocations and war are already too old to start again.

the people from inner africa who came to europe didn't integrate they remain outsiders and users of the welfarebenefits. This being the nice option because often they just make carreer on crime next to getting welfare.

This also goes for many people from other countries who think you can be rich in europe without doing nothing.

I'm always amused when Europeans write about their immigrants and problems with them.

I could show the same thing being said in the US about the huge influxes of various European nationalities into the US over the last 150 years or so. The Irish, Poles, Germans, Scandinavians, etc all went through several generations being told they don’t; and never will belong.

TH

what gross bull is this again , only shows that americans are brainwashed into forgetting their roots.

Maybe i can refresh your memory that americans are mostly europeans mixed with african slaves and native indians.

Without the colonization from europe america wouldn't exist. You're all decendants of italians, irish, dutch, french and so on. and might i add that mostly criminals and Poor people were exported to america at that time .

Just show the american arrogance again to completely forget about it.

[drlawrence]

maerim, they're not being undercut that much because there's a minimum wage. And since they've been allowed to work legally, there's much less exploitation. Can you imagine living in constant fear that the police will knock on your door, give you 20 minutes to pack whatever you can carry, handcuff you, put you in a police car and dump you in the middle of nowhere, with no money, in Calais in the middle of the night? Friends, lovers, job, life all gone in a flash. That's what happened to Poles every day a few years ago for no reason at all.

[maerim]

maerim, they're not being undercut that much because there's a minimum wage. And since they've been allowed to work legally, there's much less exploitation. Can you imagine living in constant fear that the police will knock on your door, give you 20 minutes to pack whatever you can carry, handcuff you, put you in a police car and dump you in the middle of nowhere, with no money, in Calais in the middle of the night? Friends, lovers, job, life all gone in a flash. That's what happened to Poles every day a few years ago for no reason at all.

Happens here to Farangs all the time but they don't get dumped in Calais, pity really could pick up some cheap plonk.

By the way what's the minimum wage now £5 per hour? If you find any bricklayers, plumbers, joiners etc. working for that I would be most appreciative if you could give me their phone no.

[thaihome]

Without the colonization from europe america wouldn't exist. You're all decendants of italians, irish, dutch, french and so on. and might i add that mostly criminals and Poor people were exported to america at that time  .

Just show the american arrogance again to completely forget about it.

You are the second poster to refer to the "colonization" of America by Europeans. I would remind you that the "colonization" ceased after 1776.

The groups I was referring to were the immigrants from Europe that inundated America during the late 19th and early 20th century, fleeing from political, religious, and economic oppression. And you are correct, this was encouraged by the many of the European governments at that time (or in your words, exported), just like many Asian and African governments encourage their people to go now.

By that time, the US was already an established country with its own identity and there was huge resentment by the existing American people of the new immigrants, similar to what it appears is feeling among Europeans now with influx of Asians and Africans that go to Europe the same reasons that Europeans went to America then.

The new immigrants were shoved into urban ghettos, given only the lowest paid jobs, thought of as having genetic criminal behaviour and treated as something less then human. (Sound familiar?). For many of these groups, it took several generations for them to overcome the prejudice against them for being different and become assimilated into mainstream society.

Not arrogance, just the historical facts, which you are obviously unfamiliar with.

TH

[dr_Pat_Pong]

This topic is going nowhere at all, and it certainly isn't Thailand related. Time for a rest I suggest.