Thailand's 'draconian' alcohol laws in the spotlight

[DrJack54]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

I think you should look at other more touristic area's if you like farang bars but even there they are in the decline because of a shift in demographics.

Towards end of last year when bars were open, I stayed Pattaya Soi 8 for fireworks festival.

Visited Poppies few nights bar corner Soi 7 beach road. EMPTY.

 

I know bars and Thailand.

No doubt you do also.  Clearly not bars however.

[richard_smith237]

Alcohol definitely seems to be a target, which, from a certain perspective is fair enough, but the wide-sweeping blanket bans highlight the general laziness endemic with enforcement and the continued enabling of that apathy. 

 

2-5 Ban on Sales of Alcohol nation-wide put in place to stop School Children from buying alcohol when they get out of school instead of effective policing of all shops selling to minors. 

 

Ban on Buddha days - I just don’t get this one, there is an extreme amount of puritanical hypocrisy to this.

 

Ban for Covid-19 mitigation - Bars & nightclubs closed, I get that, they are not essential. Banning booze with food in restaurants thats just daft. 

 

 

Alcohol seems like one of those ‘easy targets’ for those in positions of decision making power to show they are doing something, there is a ‘clean’ aspect to it which means any regulation cannot be criticised because if you do, you are also bad !!

 

 

 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, DrJack54 said:

Towards end of last year when bars were open, I stayed Pattaya Soi 8 for fireworks festival.

Visited Poppies few nights bar corner Soi 7 beach road. EMPTY.

 

I know bars and Thailand.

No doubt you do also.  Clearly not bars however.

I am pretty sure you know bars better then I do. Been a while since i really visited bars I will admit. 

 

So bars were empty, don't you think that is because demographics are changing ?

 

just for the record last time i was in Pattaya i thought the bars were pretty full. However I can't recall what time i was there. Also every year when i travel to the south the restaurants on the islands are full (not too many bars in Koh lipe and mainly without bar girls but they were full too). 

 

But i do admit you probably got me beat on bars as i don't focus on them so I don't really recall the change over time. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

21 minutes ago, robblok said:

Not pointless it was more effective then the law that did not allow them to buy because of their age.

 

I think a lot of people don't understand the rationale behind it. Now the big shops can't sell alcohol to kids at those times. Only ones who can are small mom and pop shops. So it works. Before kids could buy in the big shops as nobody checked.

 

It was too hard to enforce them to check ID and not let kids buy, this is easier to enforce so it works better.

 

The question is is this a valid reason. Does anyone know a cost effective way of checking it an other way.

 

These time bans of alcohol are easily retrospectively checked because tills have a time and date. So a few people can enforce a ban instead of huge amounts of cops. Also shops know they cant get away with it as these things are registered for a long time.

 

So it certainly worked, question is is it justified. 

If there are laws against them buying alcohol , having another law stating the same thing will not make that law any more effective .

   I really dont see that theres an issue with school kids drinking in Thailand , its something that doesn't seem to interest them , 

[BritManToo]

Don't see a problem, Mom and Pop stores and booze shops will sell to you any time of the day.

Restricted selling hours are only kept by the supermarket chains.

I'm happy to sit at home and drink alone on the patio.

Saves me lots of money.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Alcohol definitely seems to be a target, which, from a certain perspective is fair enough, but the wide-sweeping blanket bans highlight the general laziness endemic with enforcement and the continued enabling of that apathy. 

 

2-5 Ban on Sales of Alcohol nation-wide put in place to stop School Children from buying alcohol when they get out of school instead of effective policing of all shops selling to minors. 

 

Ban on Buddha days - I just don’t get this one, there is an extreme amount of puritanical hypocrisy to this.

 

Ban for Covid-19 mitigation - Bars & nightclubs closed, I get that, they are not essential. Banning booze with food in restaurants thats just daft. 

 

 

Alcohol seems like one of those ‘easy targets’ for those in positions of decision making power to show they are doing something, there is a ‘clean’ aspect to it which means any regulation cannot be criticised because if you do, you are also bad !!

 

 

 

I think its not just laziness of enforcement, I think its really hard to enforce ID checks for alcohol especially because it has to be a sport check and those are far less effective as checking the till receipts after a week to see if alcohol has been sold at forbidden times. So yes its the easy way out but otherwise in a lawless country like Thailand they can't really check it.

 

In the Netherlands we now have bar owners who don't want to do the check for a covid passport. (some have been closed by the government after doing so). But if enough bars do this then the government can't enforce. Just not enough people. I think the willingness to check things is low in Thailand only if really a lot of enforcement.

 

Those holidays without alcohol are just stupid IMHO, but religious people are always stupid. I mean if you are not allowed to drink and you need a ban so you can follow it its just wrong. Not drinking and following the rules should be done from belief not force.

 

Covid rules on bars are the same the world around so they are logical.

 

Yes alcohol seems a good whipping boy for the politicians. I think there are a lot of older conservative forces at work. I can't believe that the majority of Thais think this way.

[richard_smith237]

23 minutes ago, robblok said:

It was too hard to enforce them to check ID and not let kids buy, this is easier to enforce so it works better.

 

The question is is this a valid reason. Does anyone know a cost effective way of checking it an other way.

 

This is the issue - the wide sweeping blanket bans are easier.....  Its lazy policy and policing.

 

It's easy enough for any shop owner to check ID, especially in a country where it is law to carry Government issued Photo ID. 

 

The problem of course is that shop owners will simply not follow the law - that is not the fault of the regular consumer, why should their convenience be penalised because the police are to lazy to enforce an existing age limit on the purchase of booze ?

 

 

This is typical of Thailand - perfectly normal actions are made illegal because of a piece of sweeping legislation which impacts everyone but doesn’t really need to if people were ‘policed’ to enforce the already perfectly reasonable existing laws. 

 

Next: the 2-5 Alcohol Ban is not being enforced properly and school kids are still buying beer, just ban alcohol outright !!!..... I know this is not going to happen, but what we are seeing is the thin end of this wedge. 

 

There are already good laws in place. The vast majority of laws in place in Thailand are good solid laws, but they are ineffective because of poor policing and an apathy towards enforcement and a total lack of community responsibility - it is this which needs targeting instead of the further erosion of freedoms which just make it easier for the police to continue to do naff all. 

 

 

[cclub75]

3 hours ago, dinsdale said:

 

Thaksin brought in the 2-5 / midnight-11 law in 2004.

Exactly. And people forgot.

 

To remember this, and the reasons, reveals the big picture.

 

Link : https://aseannow.com/topic/1233304-restaurants-bars-open-serving-alcohol-or-not-the-farce-that-is-thailands-covid-alcohol-restrictions/?tab=comments#comment-16858566

 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

If there are laws against them buying alcohol , having another law stating the same thing will not make that law any more effective .

   I really dont see that theres an issue with school kids drinking in Thailand , its something that doesn't seem to interest them , 

It does not make the law more effective ? Why not can you explain to me why not please with some good explanation.

 

I state its easier to check now afterwards on automated tills one person can do the same work as 10' or 100's of people doing spot checks. So enforcement is much easier forcing people to comply. (mom and pop shops without automated tills excluded).

So the law can be enforced easier and at the cost of 1000 times less people doing checks. 

 

So I doubt one can say its less effective as it is hugely effective, the question is is it worth the cost.

 

Do you think you not being able to buy alcohol at those times is worth kids not being able to buy it. Or does your comfort comes first.

 

Other option is having 1000 upon 1000s of police doing spot checks. I don't really see that happening. Plus the moment a cop comes in sales are cancelled and nobody is ever caught. So even thought the law already forbids it is almost impossible to enforce. Maybe if all shops were forced to have cameras at their tills with time stamp ect.  But then still it would be more work.

 

I agree that the law is broad and causes trouble for people ( i dont drink often but have been caught out). But i don't dispute that it works (for the big shops at least)

[konaboy]

The Baht is struggling

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Covid rules on bars are the same the world around so they are logical.

Yep... the closure of Bars, night clubs and restaurants was common sense in the midst of the outbreak. 

 

As regulations eased, bars and nightclubs remained closed, but in many countries restaurants opened with limited capacity. In those places there was no ban on alcohol... If someone could sit in a restaurant, they could have a beer / wine. 

 

In Thailand the ban on booze in restaurants just seems a little too puritanical, too controlling and unnecessary... 

 

It definitely seems as though alcohol is being targeted, a lot of the freedoms in Thailand are being eroded, the fun is being stripped away because ’some’ spoil it for everyone.

 

 

[HaoleBoy]

Banning alcohol sales from 2-5pm is to stop the kids from buying alcohol BECAUSE the police are too lazy to do their jobs.  It is easier to ban all sales during this time then no need to check anywhere.

 

Must have alcohol sales up to 2pm for the long business lunches though.

 

A practical approach would be to have alcohol service at resorts any time on Sundays (and all days in my opinion).

 

 

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

This is the issue - the wide sweeping blanket bans are easier.....  Its lazy policy and policing.

 

It's easy enough for any shop owner to check ID, especially in a country where it is law to carry Government issued Photo ID. 

 

The problem of course is that shop owners will simply not follow the law - that is not the fault of the regular consumer, why should their convenience be penalised because the police are to lazy to enforce an existing age limit on the purchase of booze ?

 

 

This is typical of Thailand - perfectly normal actions are made illegal because of a piece of sweeping legislation which impacts everyone but doesn’t really need to if people were ‘policed’ to enforce the already perfectly reasonable existing laws. 

 

Next: the 2-5 Alcohol Ban is not being enforced properly and school kids are still buying beer, just ban alcohol outright !!!..... I know this is not going to happen, but what we are seeing is the thin end of this wedge. 

 

There are already good laws in place. The vast majority of laws in place in Thailand are good solid laws, but they are ineffective because of poor policing and an apathy towards enforcement and a total lack of community responsibility - it is this which needs targeting instead of the further erosion of freedoms which just make it easier for the police to continue to do naff all. 

 

 

True Richard, its because of lazy enforcement. However in case of the kids not buying alcohol how would cops have to enforce it. The moment a cop steps into a shop sales are cancelled and nobody gets caught. Its not JUST about lazy police. Its really not practical at all. How do you see enforcement of this law. The moment a cop walks in he cant check if sales have been made and he cant catch them in the act as they can just hide it. Maybe standing outside of shops and searching kids who exit the shop. 

 

Laws can only be enforced with help of the public, if there is a large resentment against a law then too many will break it and it cant be policed. (resentment in this case is lost sales). In my country they just don't sell to minors as they know its not allowed even if the risk of getting caught is low. So they obey the law even though the checks are not that normal (and often done with cctv and till receipts afterwards ) While in Thailand no checks means not obeying. 

 

Good solid laws need some way of ease of enforcement too. I don't see how they can enforce the 11-14 law in a meaningful way. Unless you want a cop in every shop during that time. Like i said earlier maybe cops in hiding and rounding up kids with alcohol in bag from shops. But then those bags will disposed and bills too.. then hard to prove. I just don't see an good way to enforce this if the shops don't want to comply. 

[dinsdale]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

It does not make the law more effective ? Why not can you explain to me why not please with some good explanation.

 

I state its easier to check now afterwards on automated tills one person can do the same work as 10' or 100's of people doing spot checks. So enforcement is much easier forcing people to comply. (mom and pop shops without automated tills excluded).

So the law can be enforced easier and at the cost of 1000 times less people doing checks. 

 

So I doubt one can say its less effective as it is hugely effective, the question is is it worth the cost.

 

Do you think you not being able to buy alcohol at those times is worth kids not being able to buy it. Or does your comfort comes first.

 

Other option is having 1000 upon 1000s of police doing spot checks. I don't really see that happening. Plus the moment a cop comes in sales are cancelled and nobody is ever caught. So even thought the law already forbids it is almost impossible to enforce. Maybe if all shops were forced to have cameras at their tills with time stamp ect.  But then still it would be more work.

 

I agree that the law is broad and causes trouble for people ( i dont drink often but have been caught out). But i don't dispute that it works (for the big shops at least)

2:01 p.m. No alcohol at 7:11. 2:03 p.m. Short walk to mum and pop shop. Alcohol available. The reason and logic of the law is very obviously flawed.

[HaoleBoy]

No ones mentioned the asinine law that prohibits Craft Beer from being made anywhere in Thailand except by the big alcohol company monopolies - Singha, Leo, Chang.

 

These big monopolies are so worried about losing a few baht that they push this to stay in place.  Looking at US or EU there is plenty of room for small breweries and the large breweries.  These large Thai monopoly companies pay good money to keep this law in place.

 

These small breweries / Craft Beer are 1)  small businesses and would employ many young entrepreneurial Thai's giving them a sense of pride in making something in Thailand for Thai people; 2) give revenue back to the state coffers; 3) give more jobs to ensure / regulate clean processing in making the beer.

 

Small minded politicians not giving younger Thai people a chance to make something of themselves and for themselves.

[HaoleBoy]

5 minutes ago, robblok said:

True Richard, its because of lazy enforcement. However in case of the kids not buying alcohol how would cops have to enforce it. The moment a cop steps into a shop sales are cancelled and nobody gets caught. Its not JUST about lazy police. Its really not practical at all. How do you see enforcement of this law. The moment a cop walks in he cant check if sales have been made and he cant catch them in the act as they can just hide it. Maybe standing outside of shops and searching kids who exit the shop. 

 

Laws can only be enforced with help of the public, ... 

It is enforced in the western countries easily enough.  In Thailand the police / politicians are just too lazy to do much in terms of enforcement.  They take the easy way out and block it all from 2-5pm ... 

[shocky2012]

1 hour ago, Rinrada said:

In the not too distant past it was quiet acceptable to order up a "tower"  or 3 at 1.59 PM and sit around a table in Big Cs food court with your friends until 5 PM...hic.

Funny that you mention that because I was actually wondering if they would be selling beers again at Big C food court on October 1st or no? Or is this considered the same as a bar?

 

 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, dinsdale said:

2:01 p.m. No alcohol at 7:11. 2:03 p.m. Short walk to mum and pop shop. Alcohol available. The reason and logic of the law is very obviously flawed.

No its not flawed it just not full proof. But this law takes care of a large part already. No law catches all lawbreakers and there will always be ways around it. 

 

The law banning alcohol is flawed because alcohol is served in cups ?

 

The law on speeding is flawed as some never pay their fines ?

 

The law on drugs is failed as people still use drugs ?

 

Not sure you can say something failed just because there is a way around it. I mean most things can be avoided. 

 

People get informed about alcohol stops too by friends and websites. Does that mean we should cancel alcohol stops because we cant catch everyone ?

 

I think it depends a bit on how much of a difference it makes. But most laws can be avoided.

 

 

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, HaoleBoy said:

It is enforced in the western countries easily enough.  In Thailand the police / politicians are just too lazy to do much in terms of enforcement.  They take the easy way out and block it all from 2-5pm ... 

Its enforced in the west because the shop owners let this happen. If they all said screw you the cops could not enforce it. That is the situation in Thailand. You cannot compare the two.

 

Plus in the west there is often CCTV monitoring the till with a time stamp. That makes it easy too. In Thailand i doubt it and even if its there they would claim its not working. In the west not much cash without a bill is done in Thailand no problem. So I don't think you can compare the two. 

[JonnyF]

Apparantly, you're perfectly safe in a restaurant drinking a Coke, but as soon as a beer arrives on the table Covid immediately joins and infects you (unless you're in Phuket. Covid doesn't drink when he's in Phuket). A glass of soda is fine, but add a shot of Vodka and whaddya know? Covid is back. 

 

Drinking coffee in an indoor, air conditioned coffee shop is safe. But drinking beer at an outdoor venue or even on the beach is dangerous.

 

Yep, makes perfect sense. 

[HaoleBoy]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Its enforced in the west because the shop owners let this happen. If they all said screw you the cops could not enforce it. That is the situation in Thailand. You cannot compare the two.

 

Plus in the west there is often CCTV monitoring the till with a time stamp. That makes it easy too. In Thailand i doubt it and even if its there they would claim its not working. In the west not much cash without a bill is done in Thailand no problem. So I don't think you can compare the two. 

What you say is bullcr*p.  Fine the shops that break the laws (instead of collecting bribe money) and you would be done with it.  Fines aren't large enough possibly ...  If they don't pay the fine then close them down.

 

This is the same as the whole "riding scooters on sidewalks" enforcement in BKK.  They put up stanchions to stop scooters making it more difficult for people walking because they are too lazy or don't want to fine the scooter drivers.  Get fined first time then take their scooter away.

 

This is also the same as not being able to enforce all drivers to have a DL.  You check, first offense is small fine, 2nd offense is large fine and after that impound the vehicle.

 

This isn't rocket science.

[herfiehandbag]

4 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

They do miss the bigger picture.......or even the basic picture.

I realize that you are jolly clever, and have insights denied to us lesser mortals, but I really do wish that instead of this regular flow of enigmatic hints you would just simply explain exactly what you mean!

 

So what is the basic picture?

 

[dinsdale]

6 minutes ago, robblok said:

No its not flawed it just not full proof. But this law takes care of a large part already. No law catches all lawbreakers and there will always be ways around it. 

 

The law banning alcohol is flawed because alcohol is served in cups ?

 

The law on speeding is flawed as some never pay their fines ?

 

The law on drugs is failed as people still use drugs ?

 

Not sure you can say something failed just because there is a way around it. I mean most things can be avoided. 

 

People get informed about alcohol stops too by friends and websites. Does that mean we should cancel alcohol stops because we cant catch everyone ?

 

I think it depends a bit on how much of a difference it makes. But most laws can be avoided.

 

 

It's flawed for the very reason I said. Not available in 711 during the prohibition times but available in shops. After midnight of course is extremely difficult to buy alcohol as shops are closed but open up early morning so it's only a few hours in the very early morning where one cannot buy alcohol. If I fancy buying a bottle of lao khao at 8:00 in the morning I can. If I want to buy a bottle of wine at 8:00 I can't. I have to wait until 11:00. Quite simply a rediculous law.

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, HaoleBoy said:

What you say is bullcr*p.  Fine the shops that break the laws (instead of collecting bribe money) and you would be done with it.  Fines aren't large enough possibly ...  If they don't pay the fine then close them down.

 

This is the same as the whole "riding scooters on sidewalks" enforcement in BKK.  They put up stanchions to stop scooters making it more difficult for people walking because they are too lazy or don't want to fine the scooter drivers.  Get fined first time then take their scooter away.

 

This is also the same as not being able to enforce all drivers to have a DL.  You check, first offense is small fine, 2nd offense is large fine and after that impound the vehicle.

 

This isn't rocket science.

Tell me how you would enforce it, give some practical examples. 

[Nickelbeer]

3 hours ago, NE1 said:

Well why was it put in place ?

The oldest law enforcement con in the world is the idea that children are being seduced by whatever the target is. There were never any verifiable cases of drug dealers selling heroin, pot, cocaine etc. to school children. This was made up entirely by the blue-nose community who are scared to death by the idea that someone, somewhere.....is having FUN!!!!!

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

Tell me how you would enforce it, give some practical examples. 

The same way they enforced shops selling alcohol after midnight .

   100 000 Baht fine for the first offence , closure order for the second offence . 

   Once the word gets out , all shops will comply 

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

It's flawed for the very reason I said. Not available in 711 during the prohibition times but available in shops. After midnight of course is extremely difficult to buy alcohol as shops are closed but open up early morning so it's only a few hours in the very early morning where one cannot buy alcohol. If I fancy buying a bottle of lao khao at 8:00 in the morning I can. If I want to buy a bottle of wine at 8:00 I can't. I have to wait until 11:00. Quite simply a rediculous law.

Its not flawed because there is a way around that is the case with much stuff. 

 

Drugs, but people still can get drugs.. ban the law its ridiculous

Not all people who drive drunk get caught... change the law its ridiculous as people still drink and drive.

You see where Im going to.

 

Just because there is a way around it does not make it a wrong law. Unless it has zero effect. 

 

Anyway this law is just there to limit the opportunities of buying alcohol by kids. It certainly won't stop them from consuming it. It only stops those that havent planned ahead and want it at the spur of a moment. So it stops some but certainly not all. If i was a kid or someone who likes a lot of alcohol id buy it before and somewhere else. 

 

Laws never stop people who are really determined it just scares away the less determined a bit.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The same way they enforced shops selling alcohol after midnight .

   100 000 Baht fine for the first offence , closure order for the second offence . 

   Once the word gets out , all shops will comply 

That could work, I been focusing on catching the kids but if they really go for such heavy fines right away aimed at the shop owner then it might work. I was looking at it from the wrong angle. I thought of stopping the kids. But this would work. Though i doubt they can close at a second offense. 

[Mac Mickmanus]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

Its not flawed because there is a way around that is the case with much stuff. 

 

Drugs, but people still can get drugs.. ban the law its ridiculous

Not all people who drive drunk get caught... change the law its ridiculous as people still drink and drive.

You see where Im going to.

 

Just because there is a way around it does not make it a wrong law. Unless it has zero effect. 

 

Anyway this law is just there to limit the opportunities of buying alcohol by kids. It certainly won't stop them from consuming it. It only stops those that havent planned ahead and want it at the spur of a moment. So it stops some but certainly not all. If i was a kid or someone who likes a lot of alcohol id buy it before and somewhere else. 

 

Laws never stop people who are really determined it just scares away the less determined a bit.

The huge majority of Thai kids are quite law abiding and they wont do things that are illegal simply because its illegal and so having the law will stop them from doing it . 

[robblok]

Just now, Mac Mickmanus said:

The huge majority of Thai kids are quite law abiding and they wont do things that are illegal simply because its illegal and so having the law will stop them from doing it . 

To be honest that is B.S. your other reply was far more sensible. People kids included don't care about the law. They do what they want to do if the chance for punishment is low. Why do you think so many people kids included use drugs. Laws alone don't work only laws combined with good enforcement.

 

After thinking about it your 100% right if they could introduce these huge penalties and really go through with it then they don't have to stop the kids and check often. Just go after shops and those that are bad shut down because of the huge fines. I think that is indeed the way to go. Punish at the root and make the shops obey.

 

However if its that easy why don't they ever go after the mom and pop shops that sell between 11 and 14. I mean if that easy why don't they do this already. But in theory your solution is quite workable. They only need to catch shops 2 times to stop them so its not economical for those shop owners to do this.

 

(ok corruption muddies the water but that is with all rules in Thailand)