U.S. Topic -- What does it mean to be an American abroad in a time of a historically severe civil war like crisis back home?

[bluebluewater]

There is a fellow who is a friend of mine (played golf, drink some beer) whom when he comes into the bar that we both go to from time to time I at that time get up and check bin.   He watches Fox news all the time so guess what he is going to want to talk about as soon as he walks in?  Others have asked him to give it a rest as well but he ain't having it.  I'm not interested in that <deleted> but it seems to be the only thing on his mind.   Shame that  . . . . 

[Tango777]

As nearly always the problems arise from some people wanting something for nothing, a free lunch if you will. Look, if you can't make money in America, where on earth do you think you are going to make money? I know more than a few people here that have more than one job. Meanwhile I am in FedEx yesterday and mention that it's lucky they have treated their drivers well for the last 20 years. The counter agents tells me they are shortening their hours this week because they can't get workers. For those outside the US, any FedEx job is a pretty good job. We know why people are not working, they're getting free money from the 20% of us that pay taxes through the Govt. For those outside the US, 20% of taxpayers pay 80% (more really) of the taxes. As said initially, it's the something for nothing crowd and there are plenty of them in Govt also. 

[Why Me]

49 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

America thinks the unthinkable: More than half of Trump voters and 41% of Biden supporters want red and blue states to SECEDE from one another and form two new countries, shock new poll finds 

I wouldn't pay much attention to these polls. Questions are posed for shock value. E.g., "Would you prefer to live in a country with like-minded states and like-minded federal government all getting along, rather than a warring house?".

 

A yes expresses current emotion but push comes to shove? No. It's a divided house, true, but dividing the country? Ain't going to happen.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Why Me

[frantick]

17 minutes ago, Why Me said:

They are not exempt.

Change that to congress and illegal aliens exempt. Same same, but different. Proof it's not about health, it's about politics. And not the subject of this thread. 

[alacrity]

What was it like for Americans abroad during the Civil War, during the Great tceDepression, during World War 2, and NOW, whatever this historically significant cayrisis is eventually going ato be calleiotd? Oef coungrse during World War 2 it generally meant you were a soldier. 

 

That presumed question would need to be addressed by those still alive with fading memories.

 

During WW2, some patriots made it home to enlist. Others held back and were punished by the Japanese. Perhaps others made their own sacrifice. There's many examples in the history books for those that care to take note.

 

Nowadays, folks are probably reticent in case they get left behind.

 

It's a long way from the point of civil war. And patriots are serving.

Edited October 2, 2021 by alacrity
Interference

[cmarshall]

6 hours ago, malibukid said:

America is a failed state and is sad portrait of its former self.  i got sick of it 20 years ago and saw the writing on the wall and got the hell out.  most Americans are adverse to travel and so will go down with the ship.  i am happily watching it from abroad self destruct.  the American people deserve what they now have.  thanks to Trump and Regan all the progress that was made in the last 60 years is gone.  this is just a happier place to be for me.

So, you came to Thailand for the good governance?

[zzaa09]

Those that might be overly concerned with such matters are almost always missing the bigger and important picture. 

[pjmorton]

Sometimes people change their views more flexibly when they figure things out for themselves, instead of getting lectured to by someone else. (For example, an adult who is considering whether to get vaccinated should be allowed to consider what choice will give the best chance of survival. No need to complicate the issue by counting up the debating points.)

 

Tip 1- Give the other person the intellectual space in which to decide what is really in their best interest.

 

Tip 2- When you feel obliged to make a choice that the other guy will probably disagree with, just go ahead and do so without a lot of self-justifying rhetoric. Be prepared to explain your views if asked, but if nobody asks, just let them guess.

 

Tip 3- Bear in mind, when you hear a person say something like "the earth is flat" it may not mean he really believes it. It could also mean that he knows you believe the opposite and he is trying to get your goat. Don't rise to the bait, don't hyperventilate. It will only encourage him.

[Nojohndoe]

19 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The first reply out of the gate ignoring the needed guidance that we cannot have a political debate here.

 

Not surprised but I did try.

 

Sigh.

Unavoidable . The Civil War you referenced is the unresolved political partisan divide that has forever  undermined the concept of consensual democracy in the US.

[Skypirate]

USA  of America,  (there are 35 Nation Countries in America.) is falling apart.  Just as Rome did.  The political and Judicial climate has changed from protecting the innocent to protecting the guilty.  A convicted felon has more rights than the innocent person they robbed, raped or killed.

Young adults want things given to them and despise the upper working class that struggled to pay the taxes that gave the young adults a better life.

My two adult children , who are upper income professionals, have evolved into social communist liberals.  I used to asked them "What was so wrong with the life you grew-up in".

The basic concept of  USA residency and citizenship is available to anyone that can muster through the immigration system has eroded into, "cross the river and chant yea Biden".    Yet my Thai wife has been struggling for several years to appease the system in order to gain USA residency.  At this point, it may have been cheaper to buy her ticket Mexico and pay a Coyote to take her the river and teach to say "Yea Biden".

The US dollar is slowly eroding on the World-market and XI is doing his best to control.  Our inept Liberals are handing it to him.

I remember when you "broke the law", you felt guilty and ashamed.  With todays young Liberals, when they are caught in violation. they get angry and attempt legal wrangling attempts to reinterpret the Legal verbiage.

Civil War, I am all for it.  However, it won't be the militiaman groups  of wayward preachers and politicians 

with a "wet-dream" concept of power and money.  The next Civil War will be fought with computers and not Guns and the average Joe will not be involved.

 

So...can the USA be saved?  No Friken way.  Not when you allow illegal aliens into the Country and allow them to pull society down, rather than attempt assimilate and become an asset to society, rather than a liability.

Incidentally, all USA Americans are the products of immigration.  It was a great concept and it worked well, until the social communist liberals decide to sell their soul for a vote.

[thaipo7]

G - Yes, were are self destructing starting with a soft tyranny under Barack Obama and we have progressed to a hard tyranny under Biden, Pelosi, Schummer, AOC, Sanders, and many others.  Our education system (first the colleges and universities and now the high schools and even grammar schools) over the last up to two generations have been brainwashing our students with Socialist and Communist ideologies.  They have gained the upper hand.  This has to be reversed.  

 

When have two systems of justice in this country.  One for the Left and one for the right.  Our Justice is corrupt up to and including the Supreme Court.  The FBI is corrupt at the highest levels too.  So far the CIA seems to escaped the same level of corruption.

 

Obama removed all of our fighting generals and replace them with ones that are more concerned with being Woke or the rights of Transgenders and less focused on their job of protecting the US from enemies of the State from outside and inside our borders.

 

Borders?  We don't have ne on the South.  They are pouring in with COVID and other diseases that were eradicated years ago and are coming back again.  Each illegal cost the American about $100,000 each to maintain them through our welfare state.

 

Our national debt is over $27 trillion with the unfunded amounts for Social Security, Medicare, and pension liabilities of over $200 trillion.

 

If you were near the Capitol building on 01-06-2021 and were arrested, you are still in prison being mistreated and pressured to plead guilty to more severe charges.  Total damages $1.5 million.  The Left called this an Armed Insurrection against the US.  No arms were found.

 

On the other had we had a summer of "mostly peaceful" demonstrations where people and police were killed, tying to burn down a Federal Court house with people inside, looting, rioting, burning down businesses, and this continued almost unabated for well over 100 days in some areas by groups like BLM and Antifa.  Those that were arrested were bailed out by the Hollywood élite and money provided by George Soros. 

 

We had a President impeached twice for charges he did not commit.  He was not allowed to fully support his position.

 

The FBI had the computer belonging to Hunter Biden, that if the FBI of old and a media of old would have exposed this to the American people before the 2020 election.  It is know that many people would not have voted for Biden if they had know of this before the election.

 

I am in a hurry.  I could have written a lot more.  I am only an observant American concerned with the future of this once great country.  This has been my opinion and the way I see the situation here. I am not a writer for anyone and just expressed my views.

 

[Jingthing]

As O.P. I give up.

I defined the LIMITATIONS of this topic.

Blatantly DISRESPECTED. 

We can and indeed do get the toxically divisive hyper partisan RANTS everywhere else; why did people insist to infect this topic with them too? It's like a disease process, a mental one. 

Things have now gone off the rails. 

The American people may collectively be committing national suicide (empires do fall and refer to the Abraham Lincoln quote before) but this topic has been MURDERED.

It should probably be CLOSED. 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Jingthing

[bbko]

26 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

As O.P. I give up.

I defined the LIMITATIONS of this topic.

Blatantly DISRESPECTED. 

We can and indeed do get the toxically divisive hyper partisan RANTS everywhere else; why did people insist to infect this topic with them too? It's like a disease process, a mental one. 

Things have now gone off the rails. 

The American people may collectively be committing national suicide (empires do fall and refer to the Abraham Lincoln quote before) but this topic has been MURDERED.

It should probably be CLOSED. 

 

Many Americans can't hold a normal conversation without bringing politics into the conversation.

Me: Nice day today eh?

Fellow American: No thanks to that bum in the White House

Me: I'm outta here 

[frantick]

54 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

As O.P. I give up.

I defined the LIMITATIONS of this topic.

Blatantly DISRESPECTED. 

We can and indeed do get the toxically divisive hyper partisan RANTS everywhere else; why did people insist to infect this topic with them too? It's like a disease process, a mental one. 

Things have now gone off the rails. 

The American people may collectively be committing national suicide (empires do fall and refer to the Abraham Lincoln quote before) but this topic has been MURDERED.

It should probably be CLOSED. 

 

Maybe you need a hobby other than creating political click-bait subjects on forums and discuss said hobby instead? 

 

[nattaya09]

I live about 30km outside Wash., DC.  So far, the only time I have seen this chaos is when I turn on cable news. On there, It's wall to wall along with COVID sensationalism. Otherwise, I go about business as always and haven't encountered any discernable difference in the behavoir of people from what it's always been.

[wpcoe]

22 hours ago, bojo said:

From outsiders there will be very little reaction/implications IMO, but from fellow Americans in Thailand, I would imagine that any potential friction between divided fellow citizen's opinions would be diluted due to promimity to home and 'Living in the Land of Smiles' attitude and lifestyle, makes most things far less conflicting.............................

 

21 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's interesting.

I'm not sure you're correct about that but it's certainly fit to the topic.

Are Americans abroad less likely to be as severely divided amongst themselves as Americans back home?

I hope this falls within the parameters of the original discussion.  I think Americans living abroad *are* less likely to be severely divided.

 

IMHO, way too many Americans are insular.  A Karen would seem unlikely to pick up stakes and move overseas.  She likes her comfy ivory tower too much.  The torch and pitchfork carrying rabble rousers are willing to destroy America but they'd never even consider leaving it.

 

In general, I think (hope!) that Americans who have moved overseas or even just traveled a bit to non-English-speaking countries with different cultures (i.e. not just a week in winter in Cabo drinking with other American tourists) have had their eyes opened enough to the fact that the USA is not the end all of all there is in the universe and perhaps have their eyes opened to alternative viewpoints.  Perhaps.

 

And, maybe American expats have had enough reality checks in dealing with the politics, laws, lifestyle and culture in their new country that they develop an appreciation of some of the strengths of their motherland and become more tolerant of difference viewpoints and less likely to want to shred it to pieces for some narrow self purpose.

[runamok27]

19 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Worse than the Electoral College, which does reapportion electors based upon population shifts (matching the number of each state's representatives in

congress), is the Senate in which each state has two senators regardless of population.

Each state has 2 Senators because they represent the state and in a Republic of States each state gets equal representation. The House is for the people so it is more dependent on the number of people in your state. Every American should know this but most don't seem to understand the basics of our government or become willfully ignorant to be argumentative. The most ridiculous thing I always hear is how undemocratic the system is in America, well, we're not a democracy so why would things be democratic? It is not surprising why we end up with such horrible representation in America, it is because nearly everyone who votes in America has no clue what is going on nor do they have any idea how the government actually is supposed to work.

 

With regards to this topic, we are much further away from any civil war happening then you would think watching the media. The media attaches itself to the extremes and tries to make it look like the extremists are normal when that is no where near the truth. It is not surprising that people who are not in the U.S.A. would think a civil war is brewing but quite frankly, there is not much going on here to that end. 80% of the country gets along just fine. It's the 10% on the extreme ends of the political spectrum who are messing things up but they do not have the support to start a civil war. They also do not have the courage to wage a war as they are mostly a bunch of cowards you see on TV hitting people who aren't looking, hitting people who are old and/or defenseless, damaging property, burning garbage, breaking windows and all manner of cowardly acts. These are not the type of people to be afraid of.

 

The biggest issue for Americans abroad is the pinheads in charge jacking up the economy and ruining the exchange rate or bombing the wrong group of people and getting some innocent Americans living abroad killed by some extremist group. Other than that, it is pretty good to be an American abroad. To remain happy, ignore news from back home, it's all exaggerations and lies anyways.

[runamok27]

17 hours ago, Jingthing said:

On the we're already in.a kind of civil war premise of this topic that's for the most part about a cultural civil war where Americans on the different sides deeply hate each other. That's certainly bad enough but the idea that this can evolve to an actual civil war is not fringe anymore.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/poll-civil-war-expectations-reach-new-high-71-of-trump-voters

 

According to a new survey, a record high 71% of President Trump's supporters believe the country is headed toward civil war.

What’s more, 40% of President-elect Joe Biden's supporters agree.

Nonsense, asking someone in a poll about a possible civil war and that same person actually participating in a civil war are 2 completely different things. If you asked a follow up question, like, "would you be willing to take up arms if a civil war started?". Nearly everybody who answers affirmative would be lying. The average American couldn't complete basic training for the military let alone participate in a shooting war. 

 

I find this civil war talk laughable.

 

Me: "Hey Ben, you going to go fight in the civil war today?"

Co-worker Ben: "Nahhh, can't today, I got meetings and some projects due this week."

Me: "But this is important, for the future of America."

Co-worker Ben: "I got bills to pay, dude. I can't afford to get fired."

 

[Jingthing]

16 minutes ago, runamok27 said:

Nonsense, asking someone in a poll about a possible civil war and that same person actually participating in a civil war are 2 completely different things. If you asked a follow up question, like, "would you be willing to take up arms if a civil war started?". Nearly everybody who answers affirmative would be lying. The average American couldn't complete basic training for the military let alone participate in a shooting war. 

 

I find this civil war talk laughable.

 

Me: "Hey Ben, you going to go fight in the civil war today?"

Co-worker Ben: "Nahhh, can't today, I got meetings and some projects due this week."

Me: "But this is important, for the future of America."

Co-worker Ben: "I got bills to pay, dude. I can't afford to get fired."

 

The U.S. is already in a CULTURAL civil war and has been for years and that is indeed the premise of this topic as that reality relates to the situation of being Americans abroad. How that reality develops over time is unknown. I wouldn't bet that the U.S. would break up like the Soviet Union but it's not impossible. When I was growing up if you did a survey about wanting states to split away you would probably get some resentful rebels nostalgic for the old civil war saying yes, but I reckon the limit would be 10 percent. It is an alarming indicator that such a high percentage of Americans on different sides are even thinking this way. To me it's a reflection of the deep ROT of the existing cultural civil war. Also we can't forget the storming of the U.S. capitol on January 6 which one of the two major parties is acting like wasn't a big deal.

 

Another point, of course this isn't the first era in American history where there have been great divisions other than the civil war. There have been many. The country was very divided during the Vietnam war an era of my youth. But my estimation is as a matter of degree this current division is exponentially more severe than that era and the situation as Ken Burns the historian says is quite SERIOUS. I don't see the path out of it. The external enemies of the U.S. must be dancing to consider they are beating us by watching us beat ourselves.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

3 hours ago, nattaya09 said:

I live about 30km outside Wash., DC.  So far, the only time I have seen this chaos is when I turn on cable news. On there, It's wall to wall along with COVID sensationalism. Otherwise, I go about business as always and haven't encountered any discernable difference in the behavoir of people from what it's always been.

So your area is red, blue, or purple?

[LarrySR]

 

At the conclusion of the next American Civil War, historians will trace the root of the conflict to the Reagan era, when he abolished the 'fairness doctrine.' The  1949 'fairness doctrine' of the USA Federal Communications Commission was a policy that required the holders of broadcast licenses that present controversial issues of public importance, do so in a manner that was honest, equitable and balanced.

 

Recently, computer scientists at Harvard / MIT used artificial intelligence to analyze millions of political articles, tweets, and Facebook-sharing data points.

They published the findings in a book, "Network Propaganda"- "Misinformation and how the beliefs spread,"

The book makes clear it has been the decades long growth of far right media in the form of Fox News which is the rampaging Gorilla destroying U.S. democracy. 

The authors' conclusion is that "something very different was happening in right-wing media than in centrist, center-left and left-wing media."  It was the feedback loop of right-wing quasi-journalism that had the most impact--and that hypothesis has profound implications not only for the study of the recent past but also for predictions about the not-so-distant future.

 

SUMMARY:

Words of the authors, "the right-wing media ecosystem differs categorically from the rest of the media environment," and has been much more susceptible to "disinformation, lies and half-truths."

Liberals want facts; conservatives want their biases reinforced. 

Liberals embrace journalism; conservatives believe propaganda. 

 

A majority of conservatives are dwelling in an alternative reality, an echo chamber of fake news and conspiracy theories, intent on outraging the viewers, motivating them thru hate and fear to vote against their own interests, to support a corporate political agenda, rewarding wealthy GOP kingpins with tax breaks and deregulating corporations.

They demographic that would benefit from a higher minimum wage, higher taxes on the rich, better education, health care and clean environment have been programed thru behavioral science marketing to vote against these things out of hate for their perceived enemies, the Democrats.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by LarrySR

[zzaa09]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

The U.S. is already in a CULTURAL civil war and has been for years and that is indeed the premise of this topic as that reality relates to the situation of being Americans abroad. How that reality develops over time is unknown. I wouldn't bet that the U.S. would break up like the Soviet Union but it's not impossible. When I was growing up if you did a survey about wanting states to split away you would probably get some resentful rebels nostalgic for the old civil war saying yes, but I reckon the limit would be 10 percent. It is an alarming indicator that such a high percentage of Americans on different sides are even thinking this way. To me it's a reflection of the deep ROT of the existing cultural civil war. Also we can't forget the storming of the U.S. capitol on January 6 which one of the two major parties is acting like wasn't a big deal.

 

Another point, of course this isn't the first era in American history where there have been great divisions other than the civil war. There have been many. The country was very divided during the Vietnam war an era of my youth. But my estimation is as a matter of degree this current division is exponentially more severe than that era and the situation as Ken Burns the historian says is quite SERIOUS. I don't see the path out of it. The external enemies of the U.S. must be dancing to consider they are beating us by watching us beat ourselves.

Perhaps, they'll all wipe each other out making Americans and Americanism extinct. 

The world would only be a better place. 

 

 

*THREAD CLOSED*

[metisdead]

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