The Infectious Nature of Misinformaton

[Chomper Higgot]

35 minutes ago, Boarn said:

Yes exactly, the title of the topic is 'The Infectious Nature of Misinformation'. Misinformation bounds when there is a perceived threat to personal freedom, when one is forced to become vaccinated to do certain things you can't expect everyone to take it lying down.

No, some dream up attacks on personal freedom (despite decades of mandatory vaccines). 

 

And then feed their fear by latching on to misinformation because, well science based medics, it’s got to be wrong.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Chomper Higgot

[GrandPapillon]

38 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Erm, it’s you that is arguing about future events of which there isn’t the slightest evidence of those events occurring.

 

No definition, no scale, no data, no research, no preliminary investigation nor scientific basis beyond ‘something might happen’.

 

Worse than misinformation absolutely no information.

ok I'll bite, and use your MO ????

 

please explain why you think there is zero risk for COVID vaccination, and that there will not be any long term negative effects on vaccinated people

 

please state research, data, and scientific basis for zero risk vaccination, and future effects that will prove that you were right all along ????

 

Good luck, and you have one hour to return your findings to the board ????

Edited October 4, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, GrandPapillon said:

ok I'll bite, and use your MO ????

 

please explain why you think there is zero risk for COVID vaccination, and that there will not be any long term negative effects on vaccinated people

 

please state research, data, and scientific basis for zero risk vaccination, and future effects that will prove that you were right all along ????

 

Good luck, and you have one hour to return your findings to the board ????

I didn’t say there is zero risk.

 

I’ve said the long term effects you claim to know about don’t exist, there’s zero evidence of them existing.

 

You are arguing there are long term effects, you can’t even tell us by what mechanism these might occur.

 

So please, you made the assertion of long term effects, it’s for you to provide the evidence.

 

 

 

[Boarn]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No, some dream up attacks on personal freedom (despite decades of mandatory vaccines). 

 

And then feed their fear by latching on to misinformation because, well science based medics, it’s got to be wrong.

 

 

If you need a vaccine to for example go to work, that is an attack on personal freedom.

 

There is misinformation yes, but on both sides of the argument. Things are not helped when people are not allowed to make up their minds, when the government makes their minds up for them they may, and have every right to, question this.

 

When questioning the narrative that governments want to portray becomes illegal as some people seem to want, those that seek this make everything worse for their own cause.

[GrandPapillon]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

I didn’t say there is zero risk.

 

I’ve said the long term effects you claim to know about don’t exist, there’s zero evidence of them existing.

 

You are arguing there are long term effects, you can’t even tell us by what mechanism these might occur.

 

So please, you made the assertion of long term effects, it’s for you to provide the evidence.

 

 

 

oh boy, love the smell of circular reference in the morning ????

 

I never said I knew the exact long term effects, I can't read the future, this is just another dishonest claim of yours ????

 

I claimed that there is a strong chance that there will be long term effects, can you note the difference? no you can't apparently ????

 

and no, I can't claim the mechanism of something that is happening now but won't know the effects before a number of years

 

again you are showing how much you are are dishonest intellectually ????

 

but since you seem to know the future, please explain how zero risk for covid vaccination is going to happen ????

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Boarn said:

If you need a vaccine to for example go to work, that is an attack on personal freedom.

 

There is misinformation yes, but on both sides of the argument. Things are not helped when people are not allowed to make up their minds, when the government makes their minds up for them they may, and have every right to, question this.

 

When questioning the narrative that governments want to portray becomes illegal as some people seem to want, those that seek this make everything worse for their own cause.

You should start a thread on this.

 

This isn’t it.

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Someone Else said:

All this guy does is misquote people, insult them, and troll; he's provided not a scintilla of evidence for his many vague claims while totally misrepresenting what others say.

 

oh the irony ????

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

oh boy, love the smell of circular reference in the morning ????

 

I never said I knew the exact long term effects, I can't read the future, this is just another dishonest claim of yours ????

 

I claimed that there is a strong chance that there will be long term effects, can you note the difference? no you can't apparently ????

 

and no, I can't claim the mechanism of something that is happening now but won't know the effects before a number of years

 

again you are showing how much you are are dishonest intellectually ????

 

but since you seem to know the future, please explain how zero risk for covid vaccination is going to happen ????

 

 

“I claimed that there is a strong chance that there will be long term effects, can you note the difference? no you can't apparently ”

 

OK, show us your evidence of this ‘strong chance’ you speak of and evidence of what these long term effects will be?

 

[Boarn]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

You should start a thread on this.

 

This isn’t it.

How is this not related?

 

You're in some way shape or form claiming anyone who questions the official narrative are crackpots purposefully spreading lies, while not realizing that misinformation will catch on more due to the way governments have tried to get people to have the vaccine. By forcing the vaccine, and prohibiting someone from living their lives if they're not vaccinated, more people are going to assume there is something amiss and spread said misinformation which in turn will continue to fester.

 

 

[Someone Else]

4 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

 

I claimed that there is a strong chance that there will be long term effects, can you note the difference? no you can't apparently ????

 

 

You said "anywhere from 5% to 10% of the vaccinated population being affected with long term effect". 

 

How are you able to quantify the long term adverse effects without knowing what they are?  

 

What guides your opinion that there is a "strong chance" of long term effects, despite this being a single use product that is metabolized quickly?

 

 

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“I claimed that there is a strong chance that there will be long term effects, can you note the difference? no you can't apparently ”

 

OK, show us your evidence of this ‘strong chance’ you speak of and evidence of what these long term effects will be?

 

dude, we are going in circular ????

 

almost every vaccine have some negative effects for a small part of the population, some very minor, some more serious, some short term, some long term. It's never 100%, hence why you can't claim that COVID vaccination is 100% safe. We don't know yet.

 

if you don't get that, then I don't know, get an education in science maybe ? ????

[GrandPapillon]

2 minutes ago, Boarn said:

How is this not related?

 

You're in some way shape or form claiming anyone who questions the official narrative are crackpots purposefully spreading lies, while not realizing that misinformation will catch on more due to the way governments have tried to get people to have the vaccine. By forcing the vaccine, and prohibiting someone from living their lives if they're not vaccinated, more people are going to assume there is something amiss and spread said misinformation which in turn will continue to fester.

 

 

amen to that, but I think you are arguing with the equivalent of "flat earthers" here ????

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

there IS something wrong with humans at genetic level resulting in “collective mass psychosis”and requiring a constant mental battle through the ages to overcome our low level hardwired emotions with higher level logic and reason. otherwise what explains fascism or communism or religion?

they all needed terror to take root, reinforced by constant repetition of unreason and lies.

 

Unlike true science followers who are rational, open / change minded and accepting of new evidence & conclusions, the pseudo science religion cohorts are irrational, rigid and dogmatic in their narrative- driven conspiracy theories and consequently WILL NEVER CHANGE. Pointless arguing sense with fools.

 

 

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Someone Else said:

You said "anywhere from 5% to 10% of the vaccinated population being affected with long term effect". 

 

I was illustrating for you because you seemed stuck on numbers, maybe it will be more for COVID ????

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Boarn said:

How is this not related?

 

You're in some way shape or form claiming anyone who questions the official narrative are crackpots purposefully spreading lies, while not realizing that misinformation will catch on more due to the way governments have tried to get people to have the vaccine. By forcing the vaccine, and prohibiting someone from living their lives if they're not vaccinated, more people are going to assume there is something amiss and spread said misinformation which in turn will continue to fester.

 

 

Nothing wrong at all with questioning the ‘official narrative’ if you’ve got facts, science, data to back up your challenge.

 

Secondhand misinformation isn’t any of that.

 

 

[Someone Else]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

dude, we are going in circular ????

 

almost every vaccine have some negative effects for a small part of the population, some very minor, some more serious, some short term, some long term. It's never 100%, hence why you can't claim that COVID vaccination is 100% safe. We don't know yet.

 

if you don't get that, then I don't know, get an education in science maybe ? ????

No one said 100% safe, you keep lying about this over and over again.

 

You're the guy who's afraid to engage in a scientific discussion.  I've asked you several questions that you are too afraid to answer.

 

 

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

I was illustrating for you because you seemed stuck on numbers, maybe it will be more for COVID ????

 

So you were just making up those 5%-10% numbers, I guess?  

[GrandPapillon]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

Nothing wrong at all with questioning the ‘official narrative’ if you’ve got facts, science, data to back up your challenge.

 

Secondhand misinformation isn’t any of that.

 

 

because official narrative is not "second hand" information? did government officials actually conduct those research themselves? oh wait ????

 

seems to me you don't like anything that is not coming from some kind of "authority", the trademark of "ordinary" authoritarians ????

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

dude, we are going in circular ????

 

almost every vaccine have some negative effects for a small part of the population, some very minor, some more serious, some short term, some long term. It's never 100%, hence why you can't claim that COVID vaccination is 100% safe. We don't know yet.

 

if you don't get that, then I don't know, get an education in science maybe ? ????

I’ve frequently posted the vaccine safety data sheets in discussions on the subject of vaccine side effects.

 

So please don’t claim I don’t accept known risks associated with vaccines.

 

What I don’t accept is imagined future long term effects of which there is no evidence.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, GrandPapillon said:

because official narrative is not "second hand" information? did government officials actually conduct those research themselves? oh wait ????

 

seems to me you don't like anything that is not coming from some kind of "authority", the trademark of "ordinary" authoritarians ????

We are getting somewhere at last.

 

Yes, there are trusted, reliable, verifiable sources of information.

 

And there’s all that other stuff.

[GrandPapillon]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

We are getting somewhere at last.

 

Yes, there are trusted, reliable, verifiable sources of information.

 

And there’s all that other stuff.

you mean like governments going to war over a false pretense or lies? like Iraq WMDs ????

 

oh yeah, they never lie ????

 

[GrandPapillon]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve frequently posted the vaccine safety data sheets in discussions on the subject of vaccine side effects.

 

So please don’t claim I don’t accept known risks associated with vaccines.

 

What I don’t accept is imagined future long term effects of which there is no evidence.

you post anecdote stats that means very narrow things, hardly anything you should be proud of ????

 

and you know the line: "lies, lies, and statistics" ????

 

btw, I am also a statistician ????

 

there is nothing wrong for you not having any imagination about the future or anything for that matter, but the "safe" route is to expect that something wrong will happen with vaccination, because it usually does, statistically????

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by GrandPapillon

[WhiteBuffaloATM]

moreover, these dogmatic pseudo types are always asking for 100% Guarantees and Zero Risk even when 99% + Safety & Risks for No Vaxx is all clearly Proven / Demonstrated in Real Life Tragedy.

Get them to an ICU Ward to see their ideological comrades, the poor fool unvaxxed, begging for the vax in their thousands, with their dying breath. Show them the Long Covid Outpatients with Great Holes in Hearts & Lungs and Brain Damage.

They certainly cannot be persuaded by WORDS only ACTIONS.

 

[Someone Else]

Just now, GrandPapillon said:

Scientific discussion on a Thai forum? are you serious? ????

 

You come across as a "flat earther", I don't think scientific discussion is even possible anywhere, let alone here ????

 

Not afraid of arguing about alternatives view, but some people here can't and become very aggressive ????

 

cool off, dude, you don't know the truth, not the scientific truth, and it's not the end of the world ????

 

There you go with the personal attacks again, you are the one who needs to "cool off".  

 

You are indeed afraid to provide any specifics or detail, and instead revert to repeated lies personal insults.

 

You made up BS statistics about long term adverse events, another lie.

 

Yes, productive scientific discussions are very possible and happen every day in the real, adult world.

[Someone Else]

2 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

you post anecdote stats that means very narrow things, hardly anything you should be proud of ????

 

and you know the line: "lies, lies, and statistics" ????

 

btw, I am also a statistician ????

 

there is nothing wrong for you not having any imagination about the future or anything for that matter, but the "safe" route is to expect that something wrong will happen with vaccination, because it usually does, statistically????

 

How do you suggest health authorities evaluate risk/reward without the use of statistics, what would be the better approach given your expertise?

 

And now that we know you statistician, you should have no problem providing the derivation for your claimed 5-10% LT AE rate of covid vaccines.

 

Awaiting your expert feedback.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

I will grant that Pfizer's and Moderna's Covid vaccines employ the newer mRNA technology and vaccines using this method haven't been in general use for very long. I am not convinced there is a long-term risk in using these vaccines, but apparently some believe there may be.

 

Protein subunit vaccines have been in use for decades and are routinely used to vaccinate against hepatitis, shingles and whooping cough and their safety is not in question in the medical community. Novavax uses this technology in their Covid-19 vaccine.

 

If some people were really concerned about the mRNA vaccines simply due to the use of newer technology, they should not have a problem getting vaccinated with Novavax. But I don't hear "I'm leery of the mRNA vaccines and am waiting for Novavax because it uses older, proven technology". What I hear is unfounded fear of all Covid vaccines, or even all vaccines, whipped up by conspiracy theorists and people with political agendas.

[Chomper Higgot]

48 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

you post anecdote stats that means very narrow things, hardly anything you should be proud of ????

 

and you know the line: "lies, lies, and statistics" ????

 

btw, I am also a statistician ????

 

there is nothing wrong for you not having any imagination about the future or anything for that matter, but the "safe" route is to expect that something wrong will happen with vaccination, because it usually does, statistically????

 

As a statistician you’d normally make reference to data.

 

So no data...

[Dan O]

17 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

The anti-vax do raise valid questions, and shutting down that discussion is actually giving weight to their thoughts, while discussing with them could educate their fears and concern,

 

nobody want to be vaccinated, but between stupid lockdowns that do not work, and vaccination, the choice is very clear, even if the anti-vax theory is true, we have to take that risk

One of the confusions that I see occurring with the term Anti Vaxxer is that is covers a wide range of sentiment about vaccinations and paints all people that voice a concern into the same group. I believe everyone has the right to decide for themselves to vax or not based on their own personal situation. Both sides of wanting a vaccine or not come with consequences. Health risks on both sides of the decision as well as social risks and lifestyle impacts.

 

With that said someone not want to vax is not necessarily an anti vaxxer. It's when a person or group starts to promote any and all information available to actively discredit vaccinations to everyone else to serve their own agenda to be followed that puts people into that category. 

[CharlieH]

Reported trolling comments/posts removed.

 

The persistent trolling comments by certain posters is becoming very  tedious, persist and you can enjoy a long holiday.

[GrandPapillon]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

As a statistician you’d normally make reference to data.

 

So no data...

the methodology is more important than the data to be honest, a lot of data is trash and can be disregarded. The first thing you learn is to understand how the data was sourced, why we are using such and such, what is relevant or noises etc...

 

and after that it's all about methodologies how to treat the data and compute the aggregates, so statisticians understand it's all about the process, and the containers, not the contents (raw data).

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

you post anecdote stats that means very narrow things, hardly anything you should be proud of ????

 

and you know the line: "lies, lies, and statistics" ????

 

btw, I am also a statistician ????

 

there is nothing wrong for you not having any imagination about the future or anything for that matter, but the "safe" route is to expect that something wrong will happen with vaccination, because it usually does, statistically????

 

Thanks for the nonsense. What does it even mean to say "something wrong will happen with vaccination, because it usually does, statistically"? The odds being 1 out of ten,  and 1 out of million are both statistics of a sort. The question is which one? One out of ten is truly alarming, 1 out of a million not so much.

Most people understand that being realistic is not at odds with imagination. But I guess if someone's imagination is inflamed, they might consider realists unimaginative.