Help weighing 20 year Elite Visa vs. marriage visa with 20 annual extensions

[Autonuaq]

visa based on marriage with Thai nation is to prefer. ply by the rules and you can apply for the permanent residence.

this way you gain more in the long run.

 

the 20 years visa is based on politics and can change. permanent residence is based on law and the term and condition will not change easy.

 

therefore visa on taking care of Thai national is one of the best  Visa's to apply for the the visa based on marriage. both allow you to work too when you have the right work permit.

[khunPer]

If you are 50 years old - or when you are 50 - considers extension based on retirement from an original non-immigrant O-visa, it's easy and only tie up 800k baht in a Thai bank account; just leave them on a 12-months fixed deposit, so you don't need to worry about topping up and maturing of funds, withdraw the interest annually so you have a clean 800k baht balance.

 

It costs you annually 1,900 baht for extension of stay; and 3,800 baht for multiple re-entry permit, or if only travelling abroad once a year you can buy a one time re-entry permit for 1,000 baht; and about 300 baht for a confirmation letter and statement from the bank (best to use two accounts, the 800k baht fixed and your normal expenses account, and show both).

 

If you're under 50 years you can use a 400k baht deposit and extension based on marriage until you are 50; the paperwork is little less when applying for extension based on retirement, and you are not dependent of a marriage.

 

So far there has not been any requirements for health insurance or vaccinations for extension from original entering on a non-immigrant O-visa. However, it recommended to have a health insurance or enough funds set aside, if you wish to be self-insured. It has been mentioned in the news that the 90-days reporting might be terminated.

 

Looked over a 20-year period, you pay 1,900 + 3,800 + 300 baht x 20 = 120,000 baht for extension er multiple re-entry permits, vs. 1 million baht for an Elite Card where you leave Thailand once a year and re-enters. You might be saved from 90-days report - if not terminated - if staying in areas where Elite Card has an office. The paperwork is not that complicated (I talk from experience), but you can use an agent or law firm to help you with paperwork. If there are any additional benefits connected to the cheap 20-year version, like fast track and airport transfer, you can buy them and probably cheaper than the price of an Elite Card.

[Mike Teavee]

3 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

In MANY threads I have suggested and in some cases recommended agents.

Have assisted several via pm and directly in that regard. 

In this thread the OP did not ask about that option or seem to have a need. 

 

3 hours ago, possum1931 said:

Maybe he didn't know about it or thinks it is illegal. I was here about five years before I knew anything about agents.

On many threads I've mentioned that I use an agent for convenience, in Bankok my annual extension costs me 7,000 THB on top of the 1,900 THB immigration fee (add in 100 THB for the letter from the Bank & it comes in at 9,000 THB), by all accounts I get a more "Elite" service doing it this way than the guys who use Thailand Elite as I do none of the paper work & pre-covid would be driven to CW.

 

90 Day reports have usually been done online but if it wasn't working, my agent would do it for 375 THB, anybody who's had to traipse out to MTT will tell you that's a bargain.

 

Have recently moved to Pattaya & this week learned that my next extension will cost 8,100 THB (includes the 1,900 immigration fee & 100 for the bank letter) & I did a 90 day report on Monday which costs me 200 THB, I don't think an Elite Visa holder would have had it any easier than I had.

 

 

I am constantly trying to convince myself that the Elite Visa makes sense for me, if I was still doing 2 international trips pm it might have been for the lounge/fast track access but if I was planning on hardly ever leaving Thailand then there's no way I could justify it to myself.

 

 

 

[NoshowJones]

2 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

On many threads I've mentioned that I use an agent for convenience, in Bankok my annual extension costs me 7,000 THB on top of the 1,900 THB immigration fee (add in 100 THB for the letter from the Bank & it comes in at 9,000 THB), by all accounts I get a more "Elite" service doing it this way than the guys who use Thailand Elite as I do none of the paper work & pre-covid would be driven to CW.

 

90 Day reports have usually been done online but if it wasn't working, my agent would do it for 375 THB, anybody who's had to traipse out to MTT will tell you that's a bargain.

 

Have recently moved to Pattaya & this week learned that my next extension will cost 8,100 THB (includes the 1,900 immigration fee & 100 for the bank letter) & I did a 90 day report on Monday which costs me 200 THB, I don't think an Elite Visa holder would have had it any easier than I had.

 

 

I am constantly trying to convince myself that the Elite Visa makes sense for me, if I was still doing 2 international trips pm it might have been for the lounge/fast track access but if I was planning on hardly ever leaving Thailand then there's no way I could justify it to myself.

 

 

 

With the elite, all you are doing is throwing your money away.

[bangon04]

From the OP: "if I want to buy a 20 Year Elite Visa instead, can I pay 500,000 baht from my Thai bank account and 500,000 baht from my U.S. bank account, and would that be accepted without causing other problems"

 

Can you pay for the Elite using local Baht funds without the requirement to show that it was money imported from overseas especially for the purpose? The exchange rate could make a difference....

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, bangon04 said:

Can you pay for the Elite using local Baht funds without the requirement to show that it was money imported from overseas especially for the purpose?

Yes you can.

[xtrnuno41]

Last year i did some inquiring about the card with a seller.

Asked some questions and got answers back, i will share it with you.

 

I got your email adres from someone on Thai visa forum.

I like to inquire about Thai elite visa (TEV). The site is not complete in information about it.

I was checking the site Harvey Law Co and it already gave some additional info. It's not that Elite as it looks?. 

Well, there are numerous advantages compared to the traditional non immigrant visa, especially the retirement visa.

 

It says TEV has assistance 90 day report, but only in some places. Chiang Mai, Pattaya, and Phuket. 

Bangkok as well. Samui soon normally.

It means in other places you have to do it yourself? 

Correct. You can report in person or report online.

 

You also have to leave the country within 365 days and then coming back, it's ok again for another year. 

You don’t need to leave the country. If you stay one year in Thailand, you just need to present yourself at the immigration department to request another one year stay. As such, you can stay up to 20 continuous years in Thailand without leaving.

 

However not mentioned how long you need to be out of Thailand. 1 day- 1 hour? TEV and passport only needed? 

No need to get out.

 

If you dont do that, you have to go to immigration every year again for an extension a 1900 baht. What you need then

to have that extension? Is it the same as on a normal non-o extension or is the card and passport just enough then? 

Card, passport and TM30.

In what way would it differ then normal wise?

 

How many more negative things are included with the TEV,

 I honestly don’t see many negative things in the TEV what are the positive things with the TEV?

You have a real overal listing on pro's and cons with the TEV?

 

But with elite card, the Thai law is followed and they pick up changes in it. So rules can change.

 

 

 

 

[skatewash]

22 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Last year i did some inquiring about the card with a seller.

Asked some questions and got answers back, i will share it with you.

 

I got your email adres from someone on Thai visa forum.

I like to inquire about Thai elite visa (TEV). The site is not complete in information about it.

I was checking the site Harvey Law Co and it already gave some additional info. It's not that Elite as it looks?. 

Well, there are numerous advantages compared to the traditional non immigrant visa, especially the retirement visa.

 

It says TEV has assistance 90 day report, but only in some places. Chiang Mai, Pattaya, and Phuket. 

Bangkok as well. Samui soon normally.

It means in other places you have to do it yourself? 

Correct. You can report in person or report online.

 

You also have to leave the country within 365 days and then coming back, it's ok again for another year. 

You don’t need to leave the country. If you stay one year in Thailand, you just need to present yourself at the immigration department to request another one year stay. As such, you can stay up to 20 continuous years in Thailand without leaving.

 

However not mentioned how long you need to be out of Thailand. 1 day- 1 hour? TEV and passport only needed? 

No need to get out.

 

If you dont do that, you have to go to immigration every year again for an extension a 1900 baht. What you need then

to have that extension? Is it the same as on a normal non-o extension or is the card and passport just enough then? 

Card, passport and TM30.

In what way would it differ then normal wise?

 

How many more negative things are included with the TEV,

 I honestly don’t see many negative things in the TEV what are the positive things with the TEV?

You have a real overal listing on pro's and cons with the TEV?

 

But with elite card, the Thai law is followed and they pick up changes in it. So rules can change.

 

 

 

 

My version of the last comparison chart.  Of course you must bear in mind that I'm biased as I'm not making any commission selling the Elite visa. ????

 

Validity

[skatewash]

1 hour ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Last year i did some inquiring about the card with a seller.

Asked some questions and got answers back, i will share it with you.

 

I got your email adres from someone on Thai visa forum.

I like to inquire about Thai elite visa (TEV). The site is not complete in information about it.

I was checking the site Harvey Law Co and it already gave some additional info. It's not that Elite as it looks?. 

Well, there are numerous advantages compared to the traditional non immigrant visa, especially the retirement visa.

 

It says TEV has assistance 90 day report, but only in some places. Chiang Mai, Pattaya, and Phuket. 

Bangkok as well. Samui soon normally.

It means in other places you have to do it yourself? 

Correct. You can report in person or report online.

 

You also have to leave the country within 365 days and then coming back, it's ok again for another year. 

You don’t need to leave the country. If you stay one year in Thailand, you just need to present yourself at the immigration department to request another one year stay. As such, you can stay up to 20 continuous years in Thailand without leaving.

 

However not mentioned how long you need to be out of Thailand. 1 day- 1 hour? TEV and passport only needed? 

No need to get out.

 

If you dont do that, you have to go to immigration every year again for an extension a 1900 baht. What you need then

to have that extension? Is it the same as on a normal non-o extension or is the card and passport just enough then? 

Card, passport and TM30.

In what way would it differ then normal wise?

 

How many more negative things are included with the TEV,

 I honestly don’t see many negative things in the TEV what are the positive things with the TEV?

You have a real overal listing on pro's and cons with the TEV?

 

But with elite card, the Thai law is followed and they pick up changes in it. So rules can change.

 

 

 

 

My version of the last comparison chart.  Of course you must bear in mind that I'm biased as I'm not making any commission selling the Elite visa. ????

 

Non-O extension for Retirement

Elite Visa Comparison

 

Validity
Non-O: one year permission to stay applied for once a year, need re-entry permit to re-enter if you leave (1,000 baht single, 3,800 baht multiple)

EV: one year permission to stay applied for once a year, unless you leave the country before your year is up, get a new year permission to stay with every entry

 

90 days
Non-O: do online, by mail, or in person

EV: do online, by mail, or in person, or

give passport to EV and pick up

from EV (for some depending where you live)

 

800,000 requirement

Non-O: yes, has to stay in bank, can go down to 400,000 for 7 months of the year, can be completely withdrawn if you want to leave Thailand

EV: no requirement,

but 500,000 baht paid for EV ain't never coming back to you

 

private medical insurance

Non-O: no

EV: no

 

agent fees to renew visa (extension)

Non-O: no

EV: no

 

govt fees to renew visa

Non-O: 1,900 baht

EV: 1,900 baht per year unless you leave before the year is up

 

fast track lane at airport

Non-O: no

EV: yes

 

lounge at airport

Non-O: no

EV: yes

 

airport limousine

Non-O: no

EV: yes (for some plans)

 

THB bank account

Non-O: yes

EV: yes

 

Foreign currency account (USD/ERU/JPY)

Non-O: yes

EV: yes

 

Driving License
Non-O: no need to take Thai exam if you have valid foreign driver's license

EV: no need to take Thai exam

Edited October 14, 2021 by skatewash

[Jenkins9039]

Quote

1) For the 20 Year Elite visa, it has to be renewed every five years, but the renewals are all pre-paid (without additional fees or costs at time of renewal), correct? Meaning that when you buy a 20 Year Elite Visa, it's not giving you 20 years as one visa, but it's giving you 5 years plus three five year extensions that have been prepaid. So if I understand correctly, that means that if vaccination booster requirements are eventually imposed for getting visa extensions or renewals, and if I had bought my 20 Year Elite visa in January 2022, then I would not be spared from subjection to the booster requirement until January of 2042. Rather, I would be facing the booster requirement at the time of needing the first of the three 5 year extensions, in January 2027. Is this correct?

Possible but NOT definitive, i.e some of the requirements to enter Thailand don't apply to Elite Visa holders.

 

Further the Visa's themselves are issued for 'Five Years' but you still need a annual stamp (leave, but don't have to leave) so Immigration in Bangkok (Elite Team) handle that (if in Bangkok) or email over docs if outside of Bangkok for local immigration, so IT could be enforced 'annually', 

 

 

Quote

2) If I buy a 20 Year Elite visa for 1 million baht, do I have to pay any additional extension or renewal fees during the next 20 years, or will the 1 million baht actually be my all-in, total cost for the 20 year period?

No.

 

3) What is the cost analysis of how much more or less expensive the 20 Year Elite visa is compared with getting 20 one-year annual extensions of a marriage visa?

 

Think of it as connivence and hassle free, i worked it out to be on par with those people that do visa runs if you factor in 'decent travel', and 'half decent hotel' etc as you go up the annual 5-20yrs etc its works out cheaper.

 

Beside, its not really the cost, if you have the money and not the patience then that's the selling point.

 

I was previously WP, Marriage, Investor Visa (40m) and now Elite, each visa prior was a headache, elite is 'all done for you'. 

 

Quote

4) I currently have 600,000 baht in a Thai bank account in case I was going to go the marriage visa route. But if I want to buy a 20 Year Elite Visa instead, can I pay 500,000 baht from my Thai bank account and 500,000 baht from my U.S. bank account, and would that be accepted without causing other problems (e.g. to make sure, are there any minimum Thai bank balance requirements for maintaining the elite visa, as there are for maintaining the marriage visa)?

 

Yes, you pay after being accepted (they run criminal checks on you internationally , and also run AML on your funds via world-service something).

 

Quote

5) My fiancee and me do not plan to have children, so the prospect of permanent residence through marriage requires that we stay married for five years before applying instead of three years (the time required if we had children). I have read how difficult it is to actually get permanent residence granted. I am inferring that even meeting the five year requirement, my chances of approval would be poor without having had Thai children with my partner. Should permanent residence eligibility even be a realistic consideration when deliberating between choosing the 20 Year Elite visa or the marriage visa route?

No, possibly, Elite is a 'tourist visa' but is considered permanent residence (for the duration), but permanent residence via marriage requires a marriage visa i understand.

 

Quote

6) I know this is speculation, but maybe some well-reasoned and educated guesses would be helpful to read, so I'll ask: do you think there's a greater risk that the government in the future will renege on the promise of 20 Year validity after purchasing the 20 Year Elite visa (e.g. if they cancel the elite visas 10 years from now, then they effectively will have stolen 500,000 baht from me, or half of the purchase value), or do you think there's a greater risk, comparatively, that the marriage visa requirements will become more onerous and exclusive (e.g. maybe they could raise the minimum bank balance requirement from 400,000 baht to 2 million baht, or maybe they could change the 90 day reporting to become 45 day reporting, etc.)?

No, I don't believe the government would renege, its a contract... and works both ways, enforceable via failing to do so in most competent courts in most jurisdictions, Thailand could be held to account for violating a contract, and when there's 15,000 of us... it becomes a class action - stop listening to the guy with no pot to <deleted> in talking at the bar lol.

 

Quote

7) Are there any other angles that I should consider for making this decision, that I've neglected to ask about in questions 1-6?

Main one it should come down to is 'do you have the patience'? - if not, then its the visa for you.

 

[Mike Teavee]

8 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Main one it should come down to is 'do you have the patience'? - if not, then its the visa for you.

I have the patience of a gnat, I'll walk away (if I don't have to be there) whenever I see a queue or will pay to avoid them (e.g. I used to pay 20k pa for a Thailand Longstay Management membership so I could use fast track at the airport, before that I used to fly Business Class even though I was only coming from Singapore)

 

But I still say that using a good agent makes the process as easy (if not easier) than getting a Thai Elite, especially if you live outside of Bangkok, Phuket & Chiang Mai. 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Mike Teavee

[wml22]

23 hours ago, Autonuaq said:

visa based on marriage with Thai nation is to prefer. ply by the rules and you can apply for the permanent residence.

this way you gain more in the long run.

 

the 20 years visa is based on politics and can change. permanent residence is based on law and the term and condition will not change easy.

 

therefore visa on taking care of Thai national is one of the best  Visa's to apply for the the visa based on marriage. both allow you to work too when you have the right work permit.

This is a great point. Very well put. Sounds right to me.

[wml22]

23 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

On many threads I've mentioned that I use an agent for convenience, in Bankok my annual extension costs me 7,000 THB on top of the 1,900 THB immigration fee (add in 100 THB for the letter from the Bank & it comes in at 9,000 THB), by all accounts I get a more "Elite" service doing it this way than the guys who use Thailand Elite as I do none of the paper work & pre-covid would be driven to CW.

 

90 Day reports have usually been done online but if it wasn't working, my agent would do it for 375 THB, anybody who's had to traipse out to MTT will tell you that's a bargain.

 

Have recently moved to Pattaya & this week learned that my next extension will cost 8,100 THB (includes the 1,900 immigration fee & 100 for the bank letter) & I did a 90 day report on Monday which costs me 200 THB, I don't think an Elite Visa holder would have had it any easier than I had.

 

 

I am constantly trying to convince myself that the Elite Visa makes sense for me, if I was still doing 2 international trips pm it might have been for the lounge/fast track access but if I was planning on hardly ever leaving Thailand then there's no way I could justify it to myself.

 

 

 

Thanks for your input. Would you mind PMing me the LINE contact of the agent you used in Bangkok? I'd use an agent as well if I had a lead on a trustworthy one.

[wml22]

On 10/14/2021 at 12:47 AM, skatewash said:

So if you aren't working in Thailand legally and paying Thai taxes for at least three years (if married) or five years (if unmarried) it doesn't really seem realistic to consider pursuing either PR or citizenship. 

If you are interested in the PR/citizenship subject this is an excellent website that explains the issues involved (it's the gold standard of information about this subject):

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/
 

They can change anything at any time.  My crystal ball is very cloudy.  Raising the minimum balances required is a real possibility as they have not been raised in a fairly long time.  They may (or may not) grandfather people in who have been on continuous extensions under the old rules rather than making them adhere to the new minimum balances (there is precedent for doing that in the past, but it is not required, and certainly not guaranteed).

 

Really excellent, informative response. Thank you for replying to my questions. In my case, I believe the U.S. government does not allow dual Thai citizenship without theoretically making me liable to lose my U.S. citizenship. So that's not worth considering for me. But I do want permanent residence. I read the guide on PR in that website you linked. The main part that deters me is the requirement of earning 30,000 baht per month while married to a Thai through "employment." It raises an interesting question that I think you won't know the answer to, but maybe an immigration lawyer here does, or maybe someone knows of the right lawyer to ask:

 

I earn more than 30,000 baht per month from investments in the U.S. stock market. I had previously researched the possibility of using TD Ameritrade in Thailand because I like their ThinkOrSwim platform, and had learned that the U.S. TD Ameritrade company has Thailand on their "restricted countries list" (very annoying as no other SEA country seems to be on the list, e.g. Vietnam and Cambodia are allowed but not Thailand, and I assume it must be due to AML related concerns with the coup government). One solution to using ThinkOrSwim in Thailand would have been using a VPN connection routed through a U.S. residence.

 

Another solution, however, is that TD Ameritrade Singapore allows anyone who is a Thai resident with a Thai tax ID to open a trading account. I've been told that I don't need a work permit to get a Thai tax ID. So if it was possible as a path to eligibility for PR, this would be absolutely ideal for me:

 

1) Get a Thai tax ID and open a TD Ameritrade Singapore account.

2) Earn over 30,000 baht per month from investment income in the TD Ameritrade Singapore account -- income on which I'm paying taxes to the Thai government.

3) After two years, apply for Permanent Residence.

 

In principle, why wouldn't this work? Well, I can imagine two reasons: (A) maybe some stupid, archaic legalism prevents the taxed investment income from counting as employment income which is the type of income required under Thai law for PR applications, or (B) maybe living in Thailand with a non-O visa and annual extensions based on marriage, but no work permit, would make stock trading or investing income on the TD Ameritrade Singapore platform count as illegally earned income (since I wouldn't have a work permit for stock trading or stock investing). Of course this would be insanely stupid, since obviously my trading activity on TD Ameritrade Singapore would actually be bringing money into Thailand and would in no way whatsoever be taking employment opportunities or employment income away from local Thais.

 

But I know that although this should be an ideal solution for having PR eligibility after two years while married here, things in Thailand don't have to make any sense. Maybe I'd be slapped with fines for working without a work permit and they'd just seize the pretext of fines for stealing all the investment income, either later after I applied for the PR or at some point when reporting the income to them, even if earlier I'd been told it was a legitimate method of meeting the income requirement and not illegal (i.e. if I'd been told that no work permit was required for stock market activity that participates in the foreign U.S. exchanges, which are the exchanges available on TD Ameritrade Singapore's platform).

 

Does anyone have thoughts about this as a potential solution, in terms of likely risk or likely success? 

Edited October 15, 2021 by wml22

[skatewash]

7 minutes ago, wml22 said:

Really excellent, informative response. Thank you for replying to my questions. In my case, I believe the U.S. government does not allow dual Thai citizenship without theoretically making me liable to lose my U.S. citizenship. So that's not worth considering for me. But I do want permanent residence. I read the guide on PR in that website you linked. The main part that deters me is the requirement of earning 30,000 baht per month while married to a Thai through "employment." It raises an interesting question that I think you won't know the answer to, but maybe an immigration lawyer here does, or maybe someone knows of the right lawyer to ask:

 

I earn more than 30,000 baht per month from investments in the U.S. stock market. I had previously researched the possibility of using TD Ameritrade in Thailand because I like their ThinkOrSwim platform, and had learned that the U.S. TD Ameritrade company has Thailand on their "restricted countries list" (very annoying as no other SEA country seems to be on the list, e.g. Vietnam and Cambodia are allowed but not Thailand, and I assume it must be due to AML related concerns with the coup government). One solution to using ThinkOrSwim in Thailand would have been using a VPN connection routed through a U.S. residence.

 

Another solution, however, is that TD Ameritrade Singapore allows anyone who is a Thai resident with a Thai tax ID to open a trading account. I've been told that I don't need a work permit to get a Thai tax ID. So if it was possible as a path to eligibility for PR, this would be absolutely ideal for me:

 

1) Get a Thai tax ID and open a TD Ameritrade Singapore account.

2) Earn over 30,000 baht per month from investment income in the TD Ameritrade Singapore account -- income on which I'm paying taxes to the Thai government.

3) After two years, apply for Permanent Residence.

 

In principle, why wouldn't this work? Well, I can imagine two reasons: (A) maybe some stupid, archaic legalism prevents the taxed investment income from counting as employment income which is the type of income required under Thai law for PR applications, or (B) maybe living in Thailand with a non-O visa and annual extensions based on marriage, but no work permit, would make stock trading or investing income on the TD Ameritrade Singapore platform count as illegally earned income (since I wouldn't have a work permit for stock trading or stock investing). Of course this would be insanely stupid, since obviously my trading activity on TD Ameritrade Singapore would actually be bringing money into Thailand and would in no way whatsoever be taking employment opportunities or employment income away from local Thais.

 

But I know that although this should be an ideal solution for having PR eligibility after two years while married here, things in Thailand don't have to make any sense. Maybe I'd be slapped with huge fines for working without a work permit and they'd just steal all the investment income later after I applied for the PR, even if earlier I'd been told it was a legitimate method of meeting the income requirement and not illegal (i.e. no work permit was required for stock market activity that participates in the foreign U.S. exchanges, which are the exchanges available on TD Ameritrade Singapore's platform).

I agree with your statement that you don't need a work permit to manage your investment portfolio while you live in Thailand.  I don't think that counts as working.  But that's also the same reason I think immigration would not regard managing your investment portfolio while living in Thailand as working for purposes of considering your application for PR or citizenship.

Does anyone have thoughts about this as a potential solution, in terms of likely risk or likely success? 

Some governments do not allow their citizens to have dual citizenship and retain their original citizenship with that government.  HOWEVER, neither the US nor Thailand are one of those governments.  It's is perfectly possible to be a dual US-Thai citizen, I know at least a dozen.  (There's some confusion about a never-enforced Thai law that gives people a choice to choose their citizenship when they reach 18 years old and some people interpret that in crazy ways as if having a choice is tantamount to having to make a choice.  That is really non-sensical.  Dual Thai citizens can simply exercise their choice not to make a choice and it simply never comes up in the real world.)  There is nothing in US or Thai law that prohibits this.  The general rule is that what is not prohibited is allowed.  No government is running around encouraging their citizens to become dual-citizens with other countries, but many governments tolerate this and have no specific law to prohibit it.  The US and Thailand are two such governments.

My understanding is Thailand requires you to be working/employed in Thailand for three years (married to a Thai) or five years (not married to Thai) and paying into Thai social security before you can apply for PR or citizenship.  (If you are married to a Thai there is really no advantage to PR over citizenship and several disadvantages.  Chris Larkin does a good job explaining this on the site referenced before).  I don't think investing is the same as  working/being employed.  In the US I guess the distinction would be captured by the phrase earned or unearned income.  In Thailand they even have minimum monthly amounts you must be earning from working depending on which country you come from.

I don't know much about TD Ameritrade and their trading policies if you live in Thailand.  Except I would make this general statement:  absolutely no good can come from your US financial institution knowing you do not reside in the US.  No US financial institution knows I live in Thailand, none of them have my Thai address or phone number.  As far as they are concerned I'm a US citizen living in the US like all good US citizens are supposed to do. ????

[Mike Teavee]

53 minutes ago, wml22 said:

Thanks for your input. Would you mind PMing me the LINE contact of the agent you used in Bangkok? I'd use an agent as well if I had a lead on a trustworthy one.

PM Sent... 

[wml22]

36 minutes ago, skatewash said:

Some governments do not allow their citizens to have dual citizenship and retain their original citizenship with that government.  HOWEVER, neither the US nor Thailand are one of those governments.  It's is perfectly possible to be a dual US-Thai citizen, I know at least a dozen.  (There's some confusion about a never-enforced Thai law that gives people a choice to choose their citizenship when they reach 18 years old and some people interpret that in crazy ways as if having a choice is tantamount to having to make a choice.  That is really non-sensical.  Dual Thai citizens can simply exercise their choice not to make a choice and it simply never comes up in the real world.)  There is nothing in US or Thai law that prohibits this.  The general rule is that what is not prohibited is allowed.  No government is running around encouraging their citizens to become dual-citizens with other countries, but many governments tolerate this and have no specific law to prohibit it.  The US and Thailand are two such governments.

My understanding is Thailand requires you to be working/employed in Thailand for three years (married to a Thai) or five years (not married to Thai) and paying into Thai social security before you can apply for PR or citizenship.  (If you are married to a Thai there is really no advantage to PR over citizenship and several disadvantages.  Chris Larkin does a good job explaining this on the site referenced before).  I don't think investing is the same as  working/being employed.  In the US I guess the distinction would be captured by the phrase earned or unearned income.  In Thailand they even have minimum monthly amounts you must be earning from working depending on which country you come from.

I don't know much about TD Ameritrade and their trading policies if you live in Thailand.  Except I would make this general statement:  absolutely no good can come from your US financial institution knowing you do not reside in the US.  No US financial institution knows I live in Thailand, none of them have my Thai address or phone number.  As far as they are concerned I'm a US citizen living in the US like all good US citizens are supposed to do. ????

Very helpful, thanks for clarifying all of this. In this case I'd definitely try to get citizenship after three years of marriage. I guess it's possible, by asking a tax lawyer, to definitively clarify if stock trading income under a Thai tax ID is taxed into the social security system here - if so maybe it can qualify but it's probably not.

 

Regarding the PR and/or citizenship requirements based on marriage, I'd thought that the time being married had to be longer (5 years) if the marriage was childless. Maybe this is not the case or is an older regulation that was phased out.

 

Regarding the employment requirement, I read before that I could register and capitalize a business for 1 million baht and with the requirement of only two Thai employees (my wife and one relative of hers) in order to give myself a work permit in the family business jointly owned with my wife. But she's a graphic designer and I have digital marketing background -- I could certainly perform real work with her to manage a small design firm and liaison with foreign clients as the customer facing communicator with fluent English *provided that Thai labor law doesn't prohibit me from this vocation* (that's not clear to me, actually, since I've only heard of foreigners officially working in education, food service, and tourism). But what I've read seemed to suggest that the panel of judges for my application and interview might not look on this as a real enough business, if despite generating subsistence income and 40,000 salary for me, the company nonetheless seems to have been formed for the sake of the application process (otherwise perhaps she'd just work as a sole proprietorship and I'd help her communicate and market internationally on an unpaid basis).

 

Furthermore, it seems that the PR and/or citizenship application rules RE business capitalization and personal income requirements may be different for self employment than regular employment with a company, and so if I'm a co-owner of the family business that provided 1 million baht capitalization, I'd additionally be subject to the citizenship eligibility criteria that apply for self-employment. Do you have any thoughts about this or do you think I should try to contact Larkin (is he a legal counselor for citizenship applications or just a blogger?)?

Edited October 15, 2021 by wml22

[skatewash]

21 minutes ago, wml22 said:

Very helpful, thanks for clarifying all of this. In this case I'd definitely try to get citizenship after three years of marriage. I guess it's possible, by asking a tax lawyer, to definitively clarify if stock trading income under a Thai tax ID is taxed into the social security system here - if so maybe it can qualify but it's probably not.

 

Regarding the PR and/or citizenship requirements based on marriage, I'd thought that the time being married had to be longer (5 years) if the marriage was childless. Maybe this is not the case or is an older regulation that was phased out.

 

Regarding the employment requirement, I read before that I could register and capitalize a business for 1 million baht and with the requirement of only two Thai employees (my wife and one relative of hers) in order to give myself a work permit in the family business jointly owned with my wife. But she's a graphic designer and I have digital marketing background -- I could certainly perform real work with her to manage a small design firm and liaison with foreign clients as the customer facing communicator with fluent English *provided that Thai labor law doesn't prohibit me from this vocation* (that's not clear to me, actually, since I've only heard of foreigners officially working in education, food service, and tourism). But what I've read seemed to suggest that the panel of judges for my application and interview might not look on this as a real enough business, if despite generating subsistence income and 40,000 salary for me, the company nonetheless seems to have been formed for the sake of the application process (otherwise perhaps she'd just work as a sole proprietorship and I'd help her communicate and market internationally on an unpaid basis).

 

Furthermore, it seems that the PR and/or citizenship application rules RE business capitalization and personal income requirements may be different for self employment than regular employment with a company, and so if I'm a co-owner of the family business that provided 1 million baht capitalization, I'd additionally be subject to the citizenship eligibility criteria that apply for self-employment. Do you have any thoughts about this or do you think I should try to contact Larkin (is he a legal counselor for citizenship applications or just a blogger?)?

I think it is an advantage (in other words, you get points toward your citizenship score) if you do have Thai children, but as for as  how soon you can apply for PR/citizenship it doesn't get considered.  I don't believe Chris Larkin is a lawyer but he has been through the process himself and he is able to put together a very readable paragraph (something a lot of lawyers seem to struggle with ???? ).  Your business plan in this response seems much more likely to be successful, although I'm sure there are many details to be considered.  If you are on a Non-O for marriage you would be able to work/run a business.  As long as you can make above the minimum required salary that should be acceptable.  

I should point out that all we have discussed up this point is making the application for PR/citizenship.  That is the start of the journey rather than the end.  It can take a very long time and can be quite bureaucratic. I believe there's a good article on that site that provides a rundown of the typical process.  It's also subject to all sorts of delays and periods when simply nothing seems to be happening.  My understanding is that you need to remain working and paying taxes during this period.  So working for 3 years is really a minimum necessary to apply, a successful application would require you to continue working until you have been granted PR/citizenship.

In particular I recommend these articles from Chris's site to get started:

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/acquring-thai-citizenship/

https://www.thaicitizenship.com/thai-citizenship-for-foreigners-married-to-a-thai/

and this interview with Chris on the Bangkok Podcast:
https://www.thaicitizenship.com/acquring-thai-citizenship/

I really can't offer any personal experience since I'm not married to a Thai and I'm not willing to work anymore than I already have (I'm lazy!) so regretfully I realize that unless there are great changes in the process there's no chance for me to gain Thai citizenship. ????

[xtrnuno41]

23 hours ago, skatewash said:

My version of the last comparison chart.  Of course you must bear in mind that I'm biased as I'm not making any commission selling the Elite visa. ????

 

Validity

Well me neither, i just came upon that agency by TVF and then send a mail. There are more sellers of course.

Just wanted to have more info. But i see with your remarks that you still need to pay the 1900 baht for renewal.  

Funny they keep hanging into that and seller wasnt mentioning it.

[skatewash]

7 minutes ago, xtrnuno41 said:

Well me neither, i just came upon that agency by TVF and then send a mail. There are more sellers of course.

Just wanted to have more info. But i see with your remarks that you still need to pay the 1900 baht for renewal.  

Funny they keep hanging into that and seller wasnt mentioning it.

Sellers don't offer an objective assessment of their wares.  It's the origin of the expression: caveat emptor,  "buyer beware."  

I'm not a fan of the Elite visa, but then I don't need to be as I qualify for the retirement extension.  If I were under 50 and not married to a Thai it wouldn't necessarily be a bad deal.  Yes, I do admit that I enjoy poking fun at the "elite" aspects of the Elite visa.  It's a glorified tourist visa.  It was cobbled into the existing immigration framework, so it's not really elite in any sense.  It's made for people who travel a lot: you pay nothing for entry to Thailand and you get penalized if you try to stay here longer than a year without leaving.

Some of the benefits seem silly to me, like doing 90-day reporting.  In the time it would take me to take my passport into the Thai Elite office and pick it up again I could have already done my report online myself, or if that's down as it sometimes is, use the drive through.  In other words, unless they are going to come to my home and pick up my passport and then deliver it back to me at home with the 90 day report receipt their "elite" service doesn't really work for me.  (I do understand that doing a 90-day report in Bangkok can be a hassle but surely there are services that will do that for you for less than 600,000 baht).

I was less than impressed with their service during the pandemic.  With the inability to travel due to covid, they should have knocked themselves out trying to reach members in person if necessary to tell them that they had to get an extension of stay if they were in Thailand in for more than a year.  They dropped the ball big time.  Members went on overstay, faced fines, deportation, banning.  That's not an "elite service".

When people were not able to enter Thailand due to covid, the Elite visa holder was one of the last groups allowed to re-enter.  Hardly, an "elite" visa.

So I realize I'm not the target market of the Elite visa.  I'm not an elite.  I don't have my people take care of things for me.  I don't have my people call your people.  I'm a do-it-yourselfer.  I don't want people to take care of me because no one has more interest in what happens to me than I do. Really, it's not even close. ????