How should I change the spelling of my name?

[Anticloud]

I'm working in Thailand and my work permit spelled my last name wrong in Thai. The last letter should ธ but it's ซ. 

 

I'm renewing my work permit in November. I'm also signing the papers to get married and having a baby next month. You can see how urgent this is.

 

My agent is translating documents so I can get married, but he needs to know by the end of today if I'm using the ธ or ซ. I know I can change my work permit spelling at the labor office, but will my taxes be ok after that? I'd really like to change the spelling so my kid can have his name properly spelled! 

 

Thanks in advance.

[BritManToo]

Stick with the Thai spelling you've been given, use it for all your documents.

There are no easy equivalents for many western names.

[Anticloud]

9 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Stick with the Thai spelling you've been given, use it for all your documents.

There are no easy equivalents for many western names.

I see. Thanks! I might keep it the same if it's the only way, but my wife hates the "wrong spelling".

 

If it's possible to change the name in my taxes before declaring a name on the marriage certificate and on my baby's birth certificate it would be preferable, if anyone knows if that's possible.

 

According to my boss, my taxes use my English name but they also use the work permit documents which have the Thai name that I don't want.

[Anticloud]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

How do you know that it's wrong? Often there are different ways to spell a foreign word with Thai script.

 

@OP: What's your last name, in case it's not an English name, how is it pronounced, and how is it currently written in Thai script?

For now it's แมคกราซ but my wife would really like แมคกราธ. It's McGrath and has a "th" sound. She would prefer แมคกราธ. I didn't catch this last year when my work did taxes, as I cannot read Thai.

[Crossy]

Whatever you do it's going to be a world of hurt, and it will only get worse if you delay and more documents use the "wrong" spelling.

 

If it's that much of a deal, get the WP changed now. Keep copies of all the associated documentation for when the wheel comes off. Tax should be OK as it uses your tax ID code.

 

[blackprince]

There is no "th" sound, either hard or soft or aspirated or unaspirated, in Thai. So your name is impossible to transilerate correctly into Thai anyway.

Personally I'd stay with what you've got to save the hassle, but then I'm not your wife!

[skatewash]

First, I would suggest moving this to the Thai language forum.

I would suggest แมคกราท์.  This should result in a Thai speaker pronouncing your last name as McGra.  There is no "th" sound in the Thai language (as someone already pointed out).  The consonant ท is often used to represent the "th" in English even though it is pronounced as a 't' sound in Thai.  The gaaran  ์, or silencer mark, in Thai over
the ท is used to tell the Thai speaker not to pronounce this consonant (the consonant is there only to indicate the spelling in the foreign language).  

Or you could go with แมคกราท without the gaaran over the ท which would cause a Thai speaker to pronounce the name as McGrat, but in Thai the final consonant in a syllable is pronounced very softly, so it would almost sound like McGra.  By the way, both the existing way ซ and your wife's preference ธ would be pronounced the same way with a very soft t, McGrat.  I agree with her that ซ is an unfortunate choice because while at the end of a syllable it is pronounced as a t, if it appears at the beginning of a syllable it is pronounced as an s in Thai.  It's not therefore suggestive of how your name is spelled in English.

There are formal guidelines for transliteration between Thai and English and that's where I'm getting the ท from:
 

Quote   th ท thorium ทอเรียม   zenith เซนิท   http://www.thai-language.com/ref/English-Consonant-Sounds More here (for example, an explanation of the gaaran symbol for non pronounced consonants): http://www.thai-language.com/ref/transcribing-english So, bottom line is there's no way to write your surname in Thai that's going to have Thais pronounce it correctly because Thai lacks the 'th' sound.  But you can get close.

[sikishrory]

I think the Thai way to pronounce your name would be McGrart. The ช on the end doesn't give a T sound. 

The ธ does and will turn it into McGrart.

But you just want to be Mr McGrath?

I'm no expert but pretty good at reading Thai. I think the ซ might keep it more like McGrath as it should be but I would have thought maybe a silencer should be above it like ซ์.

Interesting situation but you definitely need to pick one to use and stick with it. 

[sirineou]

18 hours ago, Anticloud said:

I see. Thanks! I might keep it the same if it's the only way, but my wife hates the "wrong spelling".

Changing the spelling of your name could cause confusion and problems in the future because of documents and records that already exist with the misspelled name

Suggestion:

Change your wife .???? 

[skatewash]

12 minutes ago, sikishrory said:

I think the Thai way to pronounce your name would be McGrart. The ช on the end doesn't give a T sound. 

The ธ does and will turn it into McGrart.

But you just want to be Mr McGrath?

I'm no expert but pretty good at reading Thai. I think the ซ might keep it more like McGrath as it should be but I would have thought maybe a silencer should be above it like ซ์.

Interesting situation but you definitely need to pick one to use and stick with it. 

 

 

Agree about the ช.  I was wrong earlier saying it would be a 't' sound.

 

11

ซ ซอ saawM

โซ่ http://www.thai-language.com/img/camera.gif http://www.thai-language.com/img/speaker_sm.gif so:hF (chain for animals)

low

s-

-s only used in foreign loanwords

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/consonants
 

It would be a 's' sound in the final position (as indicated in the rightmost box above).  But a final 's' sound is very unusual in Thai.

[bradiston]

17 hours ago, skatewash said:

First, I would suggest moving this to the Thai language forum.

I would suggest แมคกราท์.  This should result in a Thai speaker pronouncing your last name as McGra.  There is no "th" sound in the Thai language (as someone already pointed out).  The consonant ท is often used to represent the "th" in English even though it is pronounced as a 't' sound in Thai.  The gaaran  ์, or silencer mark, in Thai over
the ท is used to tell the Thai speaker not to pronounce this consonant (the consonant is there only to indicate the spelling in the foreign language).  

Or you could go with แมคกราท without the gaaran over the ท which would cause a Thai speaker to pronounce the name as McGrat, but in Thai the final consonant in a syllable is pronounced very softly, so it would almost sound like McGra.  By the way, both the existing way ซ and your wife's preference ธ would be pronounced the same way with a very soft t, McGrat.  I agree with her that ซ is an unfortunate choice because while at the end of a syllable it is pronounced as a t, if it appears at the beginning of a syllable it is pronounced as an s in Thai.  It's not therefore suggestive of how your name is spelled in English.

There are formal guidelines for transliteration between Thai and English and that's where I'm getting the ท from:
 

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/English-Consonant-Sounds More here (for example, an explanation of the gaaran symbol for non pronounced consonants): http://www.thai-language.com/ref/transcribing-english So, bottom line is there's no way to write your surname in Thai that's going to have Thais pronounce it correctly because Thai lacks the 'th' sound.  But you can get close.

Excellent reply. But for me, I would just add the garaan to the ซ, if that's what's there. That silences it, so it becomes irrelevant. And if your name is pronounced McGraa in English or Scots, that's how Thais will pronounce it in Thai.

 

PS John is transliterated as จอห์น in Thai, with the h silenced.

[stbkk]

I don't read or speak good enough Thai to contribute to the language discussion, but I had a similar problem. When I started my job the Thai staff put their interpretation of how my surname should be spelt in Thai on the WP documents.

 

When my son was born a few years later, the hospital put their version on his Thai birth certificate. Surprise, surprise these were different.

 

Fast forward another couple of years to my permanent residence application, and immigration noticed this. We ended up changing my sons surname in Thai (on his birth certificate at the local amphur office) to match my WP version, so that they were all aligned. This was apparently easier than changing my WP and other documents in my name.

 

According to my ex-wife the hospital version was more accurate, but I didn't care one way or the other. My son is also more likely to be using his English name more in the future for work and living outside of Thailand, so he doesn't care either.

Edited October 27, 2021 by stbkk
Typo correction

[Bredbury Blue]

21 hours ago, Anticloud said:

For now it's แมคกราซ but my wife would really like แมคกราธ. It's McGrath and has a "th" sound. She would prefer แมคกราธ. I didn't catch this last year when my work did taxes, as I cannot read Thai.

Asked my wife to pronounce the two versions above - pronounced the same. 

 

Made me wonder about when we first arrive and our name is first translated in to Thai. I guess for most of us it must be when we first get our first WP. I may have asked someone to read out the translation to me (I may not have). As English people pronounce my name differently (my surname is a well-known place in England but people pronounce it differently), I'm not too concerned about the Thai version I was given - it's roughly correct so it's ok with me.

 

Based on the 2 versions given being pronounced the same, I'd probably stick with the version you were given if I was you. 

[KhunBENQ]

22 hours ago, BritManToo said:

There are no easy equivalents for many western names.

My first name ends with an "s", last name with an "r".

Bad luck for me

Somewhat amusing when an official reads it from my pink card.

 

I would never try to fiddle with the spelling (originating from marriage in 1999).

[rwill]

When my wife went to change her name to Williams the normal spelling was already used by someone else.  They told her she would have to get permission to use the same spelling from that family.  In the end she ended up using ษ as the final letter because no one else had used it before.

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, rwill said:

When my wife went to change her name to Williams the normal spelling was already used by someone else.  They told her she would have to get permission to use the same spelling from that family.  In the end she ended up using ษ as the final letter because no one else had used it before.

Thank god I'm the only 'Jones' who moved to Thailand.

[BTB1977]

Tell your wife to be its easier to change her for a new one than to change the way they spelled your name. And say up to you. 

[KKr]

On 10/26/2021 at 12:57 PM, Anticloud said:

แมคกราซ but my wife would really like แมคกราธ. It's McGrath

if changing, I would change to the short subdued "a" sound and add a dead "h"

thus : แมคกร์ัธห์ (= McGrath even in Google)

Best to consult with a Thai linguist.

[skatewash]

7 minutes ago, KKr said:

if changing, I would change to the short subdued "a" sound and add a dead "h"

thus : แมคกร์ัธห์ (= McGrath even in Google)

Best to consult with a Thai linguist.

แม็คกรัธ seems to be a very popular translation for McGrath as this news article shows (McGrath is apparently an Australian player for the Chonburi FC):

https://mgronline.com/sport/detail/9570000134433

 

[KKr]

10 minutes ago, skatewash said:

แม็คกรัธ seems to be a very popular translation for McGrath as this news article shows (McGrath is apparently an Australian player for the Chonburi FC):

https://mgronline.com/sport/detail/9570000134433

 

there are many ways to skin a Thai language problem.
McGrat is already better than McGraat.
but it is not "McGrath" ????
let's not open the discussion on แม็ค vs. แมค ;
the former being correct and the latter as in MacDonalds 

แม็ค vs แมค : máek vs mâek  (says thai2english.com)

Edited October 27, 2021 by KKr

[2008bangkok]

Talk about over thinking, just go to the labour office and explain lol.

And as for you wanting the same name as your kid, hilarious.

You think they are going to take the name that's written on your work permit PMSL.