Selling Por Bor Tor 5 land

[Toolong]

Hi folks,

 

My Thai wife and I recently bought some Por Bor Tor 5 land (PBT 5). 

The pluses and minuses of buying PBT 5 land in general, is really NOT what this post is about, although it could be about ONE particular minus. That possible minus is how it relates to laws governing its resale. 

 

More specific: I think (but I'm not at ALL sure!) I read something, somewhere some years ago, that said you can't sell PBT5 land within one year of buying it. Is that right?

 

We bought it 3 months ago, with a view to putting a little house on it in the future and living there  No problems with it, but may want, or need - unfortunately -  to sell it in the very near future, within a year of having bought it. 

 

I have tried to google the dickens out of this to find out about such a law about re-selling PBT5 land but to no avail. Obviously, my wife and I could ask at the land office, but........

 

......does anyone happen to know for sure if such a law exists or doesn't exist regarding PBT5 land?

 

????????

[userabcd]

Some links to continue your research

Purchase Of Por Bor Tor 5 Land? - Real Estate, housing, house and land ownership - ASEAN NOW - News, Travel & Forum

 

Land Title Deeds - Real Estate Ownership Deeds and certificates Thailand (samuiforsale.com)

 

Thai Contracts | สัญญาไทย

 

• Por Tor Bor 5

  The Por Tor Bor 5 gives no evidence of a valid claim for ownership as the usual owner of these lands with such certificate is the government of Thailand. What it does certify is that the person occupying the land has paid taxes due therewith.

 

There are many other links and forums.

 

You may need to speak to the head person of the village and/or the land department to get the most accurate answers.

Edited November 12, 2021 by userabcd

[Chris.B]

Por Bor Tor 5 (Ha) (P.B.T. 5), is an evidence showing that the occupier of a plot of land has been issued a tax number and has paid tax for using and the benefit of the land. This evidence gives no official rights at all, but was formerly used to establish that the holder was occupying a plot of land and could apply for a Sor Kor 1 and later for a land title deed.

 

Interesting! How much a rai did you pay? What's the location?

 

Have you considered whether a bank will lend money against it?

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Chris.B

[Toolong]

2 hours ago, Chris.B said:

Por Bor Tor 5 (Ha) (P.B.T. 5), is an evidence showing that the occupier of a plot of land has been issued a tax number and has paid tax for using and the benefit of the land. This evidence gives no official rights at all, but was formerly used to establish that the holder was occupying a plot of land and could apply for a Sor Kor 1 and later for a land title deed.

 

Interesting! How much a rai did you pay? What's the location?

 

Have you considered whether a bank will lend money against it?

 

Chris.B.......

 

As you're interested in the price we paid, I see no reason not to tell you. We paid 230,000 per rai & it's located in Nakorn Ratchasima province.

I know enough about PBT5 land to know that no banks would ever loan against it (which, to me was/is not an issue).

 

About the only thing I don't know is what my post is about! 

 

But thanks anyway, Chris. ????????

[CharlieH]

I would recommend a conversation with your local Land Office.

 

Get it from the "Horse's Mouth" so to speak.

[Toolong]

2 hours ago, userabcd said:

Some links to continue your research

Purchase Of Por Bor Tor 5 Land? - Real Estate, housing, house and land ownership - ASEAN NOW - News, Travel & Forum

 

Land Title Deeds - Real Estate Ownership Deeds and certificates Thailand (samuiforsale.com)

 

Thai Contracts | สัญญาไทย

 

• Por Tor Bor 5

  The Por Tor Bor 5 gives no evidence of a valid claim for ownership as the usual owner of these lands with such certificate is the government of Thailand. What it does certify is that the person occupying the land has paid taxes due therewith.

 

There are many other links and forums.

 

You may need to speak to the head person of the village and/or the land department to get the most accurate answers.

Hi userabcd, 

 

Thanks for the links. I actually recall reading them all before and unfortunately not finding the answer about re-selling restrictions etc. I've pretty much exhausted most of the 'findable' links & forums. 

Maybe that means no re-selling restrictions exist, who knows? ????

 

I agree with you that to know for certain, we should enquire at the land office, but I'm always amazed at how informed and knowledgeable people are on this site, so I was hoping someone might say.......'Yeah, I know all about it! Been there, done that!'

 

Thanks, ????????

[Toolong]

5 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

I would recommend a conversation with your local Land Office.

 

Get it from the "Horse's Mouth" so to speak.

Agreed, Charlie.....land office is our best bet.....but, I never cease to be amazed at how much one learn from the collective experience amongst users of this site! (And their willingness to help.) ????????

[donx]

It was my understanding that you can't build a house on land such as this. You may be able to build something off-the-grid with your on well water. Instead of going to the land department, you could go to whatever the government agency is that approves building of houses. My brother-in-law works at such an office in Phatthalung. I could ask my wife to ask him about this type of land, but she always gets annoyed whenever I make such a request from her and he doesn't speak or read English.

[Toolong]

3 hours ago, donx said:

It was my understanding that you can't build a house on land such as this. You may be able to build something off-the-grid with your on well water. Instead of going to the land department, you could go to whatever the government agency is that approves building of houses. My brother-in-law works at such an office in Phatthalung. I could ask my wife to ask him about this type of land, but she always gets annoyed whenever I make such a request from her and he doesn't speak or read English.

Restrictions on building on pbt5 land does seem, according to the 'letter of the law', to be one of the things that define pbt5 land, officially, donx.

 

However, this appears to be not the case with most - if not all - residential  homes (as opposed to certain commercial building cases). And I don't mind in the  sense of such dwellings being built illegally or in a corrupt way. (Though some may be of course!)

 

We would be allowed to build a normal sized residential place on the land. (There are already others nearby.) But the issue for me is what restrictions there might be on my wife & I selling the land after having bought it only 3 months ago. 

 

I fully understand how asking your wife to find out info on this might annoy her, donx! 

Not worth the trouble! ????????

 

Thanks anyway. ????

[Toolong]

Just now, Toolong said:

Restrictions on building on pbt5 land does seem, according to the 'letter of the law', to be one of the things that define pbt5 land, officially, donx.

 

However, this appears to be not the case with most - if not all - residential  homes (as opposed to certain commercial building cases). And I don't mind in the  sense of such dwellings being built illegally or in a corrupt way. (Though some may be of course!)

 

We would be allowed to build a normal sized residential place on the land. (There are already others nearby.) But the issue for me is what restrictions there might be on my wife & I selling the land after having bought it only 3 months ago. 

 

I fully understand how asking your wife to find out info on this might annoy her, donx! 

Not worth the trouble! ????????

 

Thanks anyway. ????

* typo:  '...I don't MEAN......', not 'I don't mind...'

[donx]

13 hours ago, Toolong said:

Restrictions on building on pbt5 land does seem, according to the 'letter of the law', to be one of the things that define pbt5 land, officially, donx.

 

However, this appears to be not the case with most - if not all - residential  homes (as opposed to certain commercial building cases). And I don't mind in the  sense of such dwellings being built illegally or in a corrupt way. (Though some may be of course!)

 

We would be allowed to build a normal sized residential place on the land. (There are already others nearby.) But the issue for me is what restrictions there might be on my wife & I selling the land after having bought it only 3 months ago. 

 

I fully understand how asking your wife to find out info on this might annoy her, donx! 

Not worth the trouble! ????????

 

Thanks anyway. ????

If you’re not concerned about the legality of build on the land, then you shouldn’t be concerned about the legality of selling the land within 1 year of purchase. If you can find a buyer then just sell it.

 

When you purchased the land, did you go to the land department? When my wife bought some strangely titled land years ago, the transaction was only sanctioned by the village head. The document she received was more like a promissory note.

[spidermike007]

On 11/11/2021 at 11:49 PM, Chris.B said:

Por Bor Tor 5 (Ha) (P.B.T. 5), is an evidence showing that the occupier of a plot of land has been issued a tax number and has paid tax for using and the benefit of the land. This evidence gives no official rights at all, but was formerly used to establish that the holder was occupying a plot of land and could apply for a Sor Kor 1 and later for a land title deed.

 

Interesting! How much a rai did you pay? What's the location?

 

Have you considered whether a bank will lend money against it?

 

Banks will not touch any land that is not Chanote. Been there and asked. 

[Chris.B]

On 11/12/2021 at 5:11 PM, Toolong said:

As you're interested in the price we paid, I see no reason not to tell you. We paid 230,000 per rai & it's located in Nakorn Ratchasima province.

I know enough about PBT5 land to know that no banks would ever loan against it (which, to me was/is not an issue).

 

That is very expensive, I was expecting you to say something around 40,000 baht a rai.

[Toolong]

10 hours ago, donx said:

If you’re not concerned about the legality of build on the land, then you shouldn’t be concerned about the legality of selling the land within 1 year of purchase. If you can find a buyer then just sell it.

 

When you purchased the land, did you go to the land department? When my wife bought some strangely titled land years ago, the transaction was only sanctioned by the village head. The document she received was more like a promissory note.

Yes, we did go to the land dept. It was all 'above board'.

 

I understand the first comment about not necessarily being concerned about the absolute legality of reselling etc. I kind of agree with that, yes. You're probably right (it's quite a 'desireable' plot & location). It shouldn't be a problem, but would just like to know what the law says about possible time restrictions.

 

????????????

[Toolong]

10 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Banks will not touch any land that is not Chanote. Been there and asked. 

My query isn't about merits of pbt5 land vs chanote or banks etc.  I get that. It's only the issue (if there is one!) of possible restrictions of reselling. ????

[Toolong]

10 hours ago, Chris.B said:

That is very expensive, I was expecting you to say something around 40,000 baht a rai.

40,000 per rai? Wow!

 

Price we paid is considered cheap by folk around here, given location & potential. Already have interested buyers!

 

Oh, well. ????????

[bojo]

You could consider placing a 'for sale' sign on the land........................................locals who might want to purchase the land will perhaps know about any selling time frame and may also have a way to deal with the land office and 'this potential law' to get the deal done.............................................let the buyer do the donkey work and if it's a desirable piece of land, then they will do their damnedest to make it happen........................

[farmerjo]

How did you purchase the land.

Pui yai ban and locals,paid in cash and land paper handed over in original owners name.

All parties signed a standard document.

Also does your wife pay the tax on the land at local tambon?

Sorry a lot of questions.

I would think no problem to sell if to someone living in that tambon.

Also try the pinned topic above,forest enchorgement.Put in your details and see if the land has a value.

Edited November 14, 2021 by farmerjo

[Toolong]

7 minutes ago, bojo said:

You could consider placing a 'for sale' sign on the land........................................locals who might want to purchase the land will perhaps know about any selling time frame and may also have a way to deal with the land office and 'this potential law' to get the deal done.............................................let the buyer do the donkey work and if it's a desirable piece of land, then they will do their damnedest to make it happen........................

Hmmmm, that sounds like a very sensible, doable idea, bojo. 

 

Your idea definitely has legs. (I'm certainly too old for too much 'donkey work'!????)

 

Thanks for that!! ????????

[Toolong]

7 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

How did you purchase the land.

Pui yai ban and locals,paid in cash and land paper handed over in original owners name.

All parties signed a standard document.

Also does your wife pay the tax on the land at local tambon?

Sorry a lot of questions.

I would think no problem to sell if to someone living in that tambon.

Yes, we did all the things you mention, farmerjo. We went through all the hoops one has to jump through! ????

 

And yes, I think your final point is spot on too. ????

 

Thanks ????????

 

 

[chrisandsu]

What part of nachon Ratchasima is it ? My in-laws own land around pak Chong be very careful. A lot of the land around there is national park land that was sold illegally . There is a beautiful area called wang nam kiao (spelling might be a little off) where lots of people bought land there just to find out it was all illegal . You can farm the land there but you can not own it outright . You will see a lot of dead resorts around there for this very reason . All the locals are in on trying to sell the land even though they know they don’t own it . 

Edited November 15, 2021 by chrisandsu

[FritsSikkink]

On 11/13/2021 at 7:57 AM, Toolong said:

Restrictions on building on pbt5 land does seem, according to the 'letter of the law', to be one of the things that define pbt5 land, officially, donx.

 

However, this appears to be not the case with most - if not all - residential  homes (as opposed to certain commercial building cases). And I don't mind in the  sense of such dwellings being built illegally or in a corrupt way. (Though some may be of course!)

 

We would be allowed to build a normal sized residential place on the land. (There are already others nearby.) But the issue for me is what restrictions there might be on my wife & I selling the land after having bought it only 3 months ago. 

 

I fully understand how asking your wife to find out info on this might annoy her, donx! 

Not worth the trouble! ????????

 

Thanks anyway. ????

You don't own the land. Who allows you to build anything on what you don't own? The fact that other people did it doesn't make it legal. I would give you a penny for the land as it isn't yours to start with. 

[Chris.B]

4 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

You don't own the land. Who allows you to build anything on what you don't own? The fact that other people did it doesn't make it legal. I would give you a penny for the land as it isn't yours to start with. 

What I don't understand is why the Op paid so much for land which he doesn't own? 

[FritsSikkink]

3 minutes ago, Chris.B said:

What I don't understand is why the Op paid so much for land which he doesn't own? 

Maybe because he can find someone else who wants to pay more for a piece of land that they won't be the owner of.

[KhaoYai]

You need to carefully ask about this land before you build anything on it.  To the best of my knowledge there is more than one variation of Por Bor Tor 5 land.  At its worst it conveys less than squatter's rights and at its best it can simply allow a claim that you've used the land, paid tax on it and believe you have a right to stay on it. I believe some is designated as agricultural only etc. etc.  That said, as far as I know, its not so long ago that most land in Thailand was categorised as thus and showing that tax had been paid each year was the start of the long process of making a claim for more secure titles with the eventual aim being chanotte.  I'm not sure but I think you have to claim your rights to the land based on the fact that you've used it for x years (evidenced by the tax receipts) which of course, having just 'bought it' you haven't.

 

Many Thai's have lived on such land for generations and have no intention of trying for a title deed - they rarely have any problems.  The problems seem to start when the land is 'sold' and can come about through jealousy. The neighbours see a Thai woman come along with her foreign husband and all of a sudden, there's a new fancy house being built.  You may well get the Poo Yai Baan's blessing to do that but if the brown stuff hits the fan, will he support you? Unlikely.

 

If the land is needed for some infrastructure project under the compulsory purchase laws, you won't be entitled to any compensation.

 

As you say you might need to sell it, I think the best you can hope for is someone like you that is prepared to take it on because of its 'hope value'.  People have got rich doing that, some have lost but most know they're in it for the long run.

 

Personally, I wouldn't touch anything less than Nor Sor Saam but as you've already bought it, good luck (sincerely).

Edited November 15, 2021 by KhaoYai

[Toolong]

19 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

You need to carefully ask about this land before you build anything on it.  To the best of my knowledge there is more than one variation of Por Bor Tor 5 land.  At its worst it conveys less than squatter's rights and at its best it can simply allow a claim that you've used the land, paid tax on it and believe you have a right to stay on it. I believe some is designated as agricultural only etc. etc.  That said, as far as I know, its not so long ago that most land in Thailand was categorised as thus and showing that tax had been paid each year was the start of the long process of making a claim for more secure titles with the eventual aim being chanotte.  I'm not sure but I think you have to claim your rights to the land based on the fact that you've used it for x years (evidenced by the tax receipts) which of course, having just 'bought it' you haven't.

 

Many Thai's have lived on such land for generations and have no intention of trying for a title deed - they rarely have any problems.  The problems seem to start when the land is 'sold' and can come about through jealousy. The neighbours see a Thai woman come along with her foreign husband and all of a sudden, there's a new fancy house being built.  You may well get the Poo Yai Baan's blessing to do that but if the brown stuff hits the fan, will he support you? Unlikely.

 

If the land is needed for some infrastructure project under the compulsory purchase laws, you won't be entitled to any compensation.

 

As you say you might need to sell it, I think the best you can hope for is someone like you that is prepared to take it on because of its 'hope value'.  People have got rich doing that, some have lost but most know they're in it for the long run.

 

Personally, I wouldn't touch anything less than Nor Sor Saam but as you've already bought it, good luck (sincerely).

Hello KhaoYai,

 

Sorry for slow response.

 

Thanks for your well articulated & interesting comments.

Although I regret that my original query on this thread has largely turned out to be the very thing I declared I hoped it wouldn't become, ie, just about the +'s & -'s of pbt5 land in general, your comments were thoughtfully conveyed and I appreciate them. ????????

 

This may sound a bit sort of arrogant, or cocky.....and I certainly DON'T mean it that way, but....I am fully aware of the facts (or 95%) and the negative perceptions many (including me to some extent) have about pbt5.  So I was careful, when considering to buy or not, to not make a very costly error, and without going into too detail about 'why', I am very confident that it wasn't an error by any means and am happy with the purchase. I should stress it wasn't bought as a way to make a few bucks on its resale. Never a plan to sell it at all, in fact....which brings me back to the query I have about (possibly, possibly not)  selling it so soon after purchase if there are restrictions on that. For me, that remains the 1 question to which I most keenly wish to know the answer. 

 

On that point, I guess it's off to the land office to really know the score! 

 

But thanks to you for your advice/thoughts ????????????????

 

 

[Toolong]

20 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

What part of nachon Ratchasima is it ? My in-laws own land around pak Chong be very careful. A lot of the land around there is national park land that was sold illegally . There is a beautiful area called wang nam kiao (spelling might be a little off) where lots of people bought land there just to find out it was all illegal . You can farm the land there but you can not own it outright . You will see a lot of dead resorts around there for this very reason . All the locals are in on trying to sell the land even though they know they don’t own it . 

Hi chrisandsu,

 

Thanks for your comments. ????????

 

Yes, you're right about Wang Nam Kiao.....funny, but I have first-hand knowledge of the scenarios that have played out there! One must indeed be wary! ????

 

To answer your question about location, it is also in the Pakchong region but not so far north-easterly as WNKiao. The legality of the sale & whose land it was to sell on, is not in question (????????) and I don't have worries about that (famous last words, eh?!????).

 

But thanks, chrisandsu, for your cautionary advice & help! ????????????????

 

 

 

 

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, Toolong said:

This may sound a bit sort of arrogant, or cocky.....and I certainly DON'T mean it that way, but....I am fully aware of the facts (or 95%) and the negative perceptions many (including me to some extent) have about pbt5. 

Not taken as cocky at all.  People can only generalise in their comments -  a piece of land, of course has its own relevant laws attached but each plot is different, not only in terms of location but each has its own particular set of circumstances.  For example, the previous 'owner' may have been well down the road to acquiring the next step towards full title.  Equally they may know someone 'inside' the surveyor's office at the Land Department.

 

Only you know why you bought it or why you paid what you paid.

Edited November 16, 2021 by KhaoYai

[donx]

From my perspective, the fact that you actually went to the land office to complete the purchase makes me less skeptical about your situation. When my wife bought what she claimed was "Sor Tor Gor" land with rubber trees, the only proof of ownership was a document signed in front of the village chief.

 

A few years later, she discovered that her brother's wife sold the land without her knowing about it. I guess the sister-in-law forged my wife's signature. How my wife ever forgave them for that I'll never understand. At least we only paid something like 30,000 per rai back then, so not a big loss. Besides, she purchased it as a way for her family to have an income stream. 

[Toolong]

6 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Not taken as cocky at all.  People can only generalise in their comments -  a piece of land, of course has its own relevant laws attached but each plot is different, not only in terms of location but each has its own particular set of circumstances.  For example, the previous 'owner' may have been well down the road to acquiring the next step towards full title.  Equally they may know someone 'inside' the surveyor's office at the Land Department.

 

Only you know why you bought it or why you paid what you paid.

Indeed. Wisely put! ????????