Thai culture question

[Paulaew]

Just now, thaibeachlovers said:

This thread exemplifies why I never tried to be a "Thai" and bowed/ smiled instead. I never had a problem. Sounds like the boss lady was a self entitled <deleted> that thought she was important. The sort of person I despise.

Well, I didn't want to say that. But, yeah.

 

Paul Laew

[Bill97]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Only if the wife respects her husband. If she doesn't respect the husband's culture and him personally then she deserves nothing.

You certainly would never give without getting something in return, would you?

Everything is conditional?

Always stings attached?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Paulaew said:

I know this can seem a trivial topic, but it's actually quite important to my wife, since she felt my actions reflected poorly on her. If you have a Thai spouse and are here long term, you may find it necessary to live in Thai society.

 

I know some farang enjoy thumbing their noses at Thai norms that seem quaint or outdated or even ridiculous. And it is undoubtedly true that respect is often required when it is not deserved.  But I make an effort to go along with the conventions while maintaining my integrity (not always easy).

 

My original question could be put this way -- when it comes to wai priority, does position trump age, education and wealth? Andre0720 suggested in his post that it does. Not that a department head in a Thai government school is such an exalted position ...

 

Paul Laew

IMO farangs will never understand the nuances of wai'ing eg height respective to face, length of time, speed of wai, etc. The question then becomes if it is better to wai incorrectly, or not at all. I decided decades ago that I'd never understand it so better not to do it at all.

 

Anyway, the problem was caused by the wife in the first place. If she wanted husband to wai, she should have told him ahead of the visit, and tutored him in the correct way to wai such a person, not expect him to magically know how to do it in that situation.

 

For myself, I would have been missing from the scene for as long as she was there, which is an excellent way to avoid such a situation.

 

BTW, my wife took me to meet the head monk and he didn't get upset because I didn't wai, and I'm pretty sure the head monk trumps a mere teacher.

[Tropicalevo]

38 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

I tend to have a (deservedly) low opinion of Thai government school bureaucrats.

Teachers et al seem to have a special status in Thailand.

My wife (farang) was a teacher and she was wai'd by pretty much every Thai that we know. Including the local police chief.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Bill97 said:

You certainly would never give without getting something in return, would you?

Everything is conditional?

Always stings attached?

Life is conditional. I never got anything given unconditionally, so why the <deleted> should I give to people I don't even know, and may not like?

[Paulaew]

1 minute ago, Tropicalevo said:

Teachers et al seem to have a special status in Thailand.

My wife (farang) was a teacher and she was wai'd by pretty much every Thai that we know. Including the local police chief.

It's true, my wife is a wai magnet. I just get the leftover wai's.

 

Paul Laew

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Tropicalevo said:

Teachers et al seem to have a special status in Thailand.

My wife (farang) was a teacher and she was wai'd by pretty much every Thai that we know. Including the local police chief.

Is she pretty? That seems to colour males desire to do things for that they wouldn't do for an ugly woman. Plenty of women in LOS making a living off having a pretty face.

[Bill97]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never got anything given unconditionally,

Truly very sorry to hear that. Wish you better luck in the future.

[Paulaew]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO farangs will never understand the nuances of wai'ing eg height respective to face, length of time, speed of wai, etc. The question then becomes if it is better to wai incorrectly, or not at all. I decided decades ago that I'd never understand it so better not to do it at all.

 

Anyway, the problem was caused by the wife in the first place. If she wanted husband to wai, she should have told him ahead of the visit, and tutored him in the correct way to wai such a person, not expect him to magically know how to do it in that situation.

 

For myself, I would have been missing from the scene for as long as she was there, which is an excellent way to avoid such a situation.

 

BTW, my wife took me to meet the head monk and he didn't get upset because I didn't wai, and I'm pretty sure the head monk trumps a mere teacher.

I don't think Thai's expect farang to understand the nuances of wai's that distinguish degrees of respect. But I can't imagine not wai'ing a monk I meet at a temple, especially the abbot. But I can understand that he had the equanimity not to show his response to the offense.

 

Paul Laew

 

[KhunLA]

21 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Do you know how to wai your wife's boss? Thais learn it through a lifetime of learning, but farangs normally have no idea of the correct wai to use.

Do I ... yes, as I learn the culture of where I'll be and try to respect it.

Does the OP ... apparently not.

 

Get the impression it was like two Alphas meeting, and neither wanting to bow to the other.  Only thing wrong with that this time, his wife may have got some collateral damage from it.  Not cool.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Paulaew said:

My original question could be put this way -- when it comes to wai priority, does position trump age, education and wealth?

I just had this discussion with my wife and she says you are 110% correct, i.e. as you are older and are in your own house, it is she that should wai you first.

 

My wife gave me an example, i.e. she asked me when we drop the kids off to school and the principal sees us what does she do, she wai's to us first and she is older than us, point taken.

 

My wife also said, it should really be a relaxed thing, you see me, I wai you, or you wai me, shouldn't have to be the way it is, look at the principal for example as above.

 

Also my wife said for you to tell your wife to zip it and show her support to you first and foremost as opposed to her egotistical boss.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[Paulaew]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Get the impression it was like two Alphas meeting, and neither wanting to bow to the other.  Only thing wrong with that this time, his wife may have got some collateral damage from it.  Not cool.

You're right. But I can tell you that I got some collateral damage from it afterwards.

 

Paul Laew

[thaibeachlovers]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Do I ... yes, as I learn the culture of where I'll be and try to respect it.

Does the OP ... apparently not.

 

Get the impression it was like two Alphas meeting, and neither wanting to bow to the other.  Only thing wrong with that this time, his wife may have got some collateral damage from it.  Not cool.

As I already pointed out, the wife was the author of her own discomfort given her lack of preparing her husband for the occasion.

 

BTW, Thai culture apparently also allows for cruelty to animals, cruelty to persons perceived to be below them in status, stealing from inlaws ( me ), drunkeness, worshipping 3 headed elephants and various other idols ( despite portraying themselves as Buddhist ), racism against people from other countries ( my wife was racist towards Burmese ), impregnating young girls and abandoning them without support, using wife's money to drink and have sex with prostitutes ( my wife's ex husband ), killing thousands on the roads because driving considerately is not apparently Thai culture, etc etc etc.

My question is should I respect that sort of culture?

[thaibeachlovers]

7 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I just had this discussion with my wife and she says you are 110% correct, i.e. as you are older and are in your own house, it is she that should wai you first.

 

My wife gave me an example, i.e. she asked me when we drop the kids off to school and the principal sees us what does she do, she wai's to us first and she is older than us, point taken.

 

My wife also said, it should really be a relaxed thing, you see me, I wai you, or you wai me, shouldn't have to be the way it is, look at the principal for example as above.

 

Also my wife said for you to tell your wife to zip it and show her support to you first and foremost as opposed to her egotistical boss.

 

My wife was really hot about Thai culture when it benefited her, but not so much when it required something from her.

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

BTW, Thai culture apparently also allows for cruelty to ......

 

My question is should I respect that sort of culture?

I disagree with all that followed the 1st line.  No good Buddhist would do, allow any of those ... BUT ... hence the problem with all societies, finding good people.

 

Nobody 'allows' it, but it does happen ... worldwide.

Edited December 20, 2021 by KhunLA

[Paulaew]

8 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I just had this discussion with my wife and she says you are 110% correct, i.e. as you are older and are in your own house, it is she that should wai you first.

 

My wife gave me an example, i.e. she asked me when we drop the kids off to school and the principal sees us what does she do, she wai's to us first and she is older than us, point taken.

 

My wife also said, it should really be a relaxed thing, you see me, I wai you, or you wai me, shouldn't have to be the way it is, look at the principal for example as above.

 

Also my wife said for you to tell your wife to zip it and show her support to you first and foremost as opposed to her egotistical boss.

 

Thanks very much for getting an opinion from your wife. I do agree that it would have been gracious for this lady to wai me when she entered my house. But I made the mistake of not wai'ing her when I didn't get the wai I expected. So I wasn't gracious either. So that's on me.

 

My wife is still married to me. But I was in the doghouse for a while.

 

Paul Laew

[thaibeachlovers]

15 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

I don't think Thai's expect farang to understand the nuances of wai's that distinguish degrees of respect. But I can't imagine not wai'ing a monk I meet at a temple, especially the abbot. But I can understand that he had the equanimity not to show his response to the offense.

 

Paul Laew

 

LOL. IMO he understood that a farang comes from another culture, and was the sort of person that didn't get exercised about such minor differences. However, had I disrespected Buddha, I'm pretty sure he'd have been on my case.

[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My wife was really hot about Thai culture when it benefited her, but not so much when it required something from her.

It helps when they have spent a while (10 years) living overseas, it's a real eye opener, probably why she barks here at authority or idiot school teachers in uniforms who think they are in the army.

 

Yes she grew some, and has turned from the little kitten that I once knew when I first met her, into a lioness, just hope she doesn't turn on me ????

 

[thaibeachlovers]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I disagree with all that followed the 1st line.  No good Buddhist would do, allow any of those ... BUT ... hence the problem with all societies, finding good people.

 

Nobody 'allows' it, but it does happen ... worldwide.

Unfortunately I never KNEW a "good "Buddhist that followed the tenets of Buddhism, but that's because people are fallible humans, not God in human form.

Edited December 20, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[4MyEgo]

14 minutes ago, Paulaew said:

Thanks very much for getting an opinion from your wife. I do agree that it would have been gracious for this lady to wai me when she entered my house. But I made the mistake of not wai'ing her when I didn't get the wai I expected. So I wasn't gracious either. So that's on me.

 

My wife is still married to me. But I was in the doghouse for a while.

 

Paul Laew

I understand the culture to an extent, and usually nod my head to whoever, i.e. whether they are wai-ing to me or not, or even smile and I usually get a response 99% of the time. I am that type of guy, you know the type who would always put his hand out to shake back home when appropriate, welcoming.

 

As for the dog house, well my wife knows is she waves the red flag to this bull, he will charge, but as I age gracefully I have learned that it is better to not play the game, silence as much as I hate it, allows her to know how p-issed I really am, and then she will come back in less than 15 minutes to make up, call that what you will, but I swear at times I could do a Mike Tyson....

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by 4MyEgo

[petermik]

9 hours ago, Paulaew said:

No, it was an awkward moment -- she was waiting for a wai from me that was not forthcoming. I was expecting a wai from her. It was more or less a breakdown of wai expectations.

 

What followed was a delayed and sort of fumbled co-wai. Neither she nor my wife looked happy about it.

 

Paul Laew

Dump the wife Paul....

[swm59nj]

I think some Thais should look at their own rudeness and behavior in public.  Instead of  focusing on who Wei's who.  I see on the news Thais that seriously injure and kill people. And they Wei in front of the police.  Like all should be forgiven. 

It sounds like to me this "boss" is on an ego trip. Probably think she is better than anyone else.  That's if you feel she was upset about it too.  

I know its a culture thing. But this woman was visiting your home. I would understand your wife doing the Wei first because it's her boss.  But this woman is not your boss.  She has nothing to do with you, and is not over you. She is no better than you. She was your guest, and you invited her into your home.

And Im guessing if the boss was insulted, its because you are a foreigner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paulaew]

10 minutes ago, petermik said:

Dump the wife Paul....

Well, it's been under consideration on more than one occasion. Let's just say that my failure to wai to her boss was the least of my transgressions, and leave it at that. ????

 

Paul Laew

[petermik]

7 hours ago, petermik said:

Dump the wife Paul....

 

7 hours ago, Paulaew said:

Well, it's been under consideration on more than one occasion. Let's just say that my failure to wai to her boss was the least of my transgressions, and leave it at that. ????

 

Paul Laew

It was a serious suggestion Paul....if my GF ever gave me grief like that she would be shown the door....obviously in your case it is different....we only get one life and we are supposed to enjoy it....plenty more fish in the sea etc....good luck anyhow 

[ColeBOzbourne]

1 hour ago, petermik said:

It was a serious suggestion Paul....if my GF ever gave me grief like that she would be shown the door....obviously in your case it is different....we only get one life and we are supposed to enjoy it....plenty more fish in the sea etc....good luck anyhow

When I was ten years old my parents gave me grief one time. But only once. I told them to pack their bags and I showed them the door. One life...enjoy it!

[sipi]

I would have waied the old bag first just to make life easy.

[BritManToo]

10 hours ago, Paulaew said:

Am I mistaken, or is there a law of inherited subservience here that I'm not aware of? Should I have been the wai-er or the wai-ee?

As a foreigner you are outside the Thai feudal system and need wai no-one.

If you wai and get it wrong they will consider you a fool.

 

I also laugh at the foreign halfwits that wear dirty white Buddha clothes and it isn't a Buddha day.

Edited December 20, 2021 by BritManToo

[tonray]

7 hours ago, petermik said:

Dump the wife Paul....

'enough already ! '

[Paulaew]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

As a foreigner you are outside the Thai feudal system and need wai no-one.

If you wai and get it wrong they will consider you a fool.

 

I also laugh at the foreign halfwits that wear dirty white Buddha clothes and it isn't a Buddha day.

I would hazard a guess that you don't have a Thai spouse and luuk kreung children.

 

In fact, "rich foreigner husband" has a well-defined role in the Thai "feudal" system. It's probably been that way since westerners first came to live in Thailand in the 16th century.

 

As far as the dirty white Buddha clothes are concerned, that's not a faux pas on my list (yet). But I've heard that they are expected if you're doing time in the temple as a layperson, even if it's not a Buddha day.

 

Paul Laew

[ArcticFox]

10 hours ago, Paulaew said:

My wife said, I was wrong -- because this woman was her boss, I was required to wai first.

But - if I was the OP this would be my reply:

"She is not my boss."  Then reiterate.  "I'm older and wealthier than her." 
Not only should she wai me first, but her wai should be at the proper height to covey to proper respect toward me - her elder and superior.

If Thais wish to play this game - then know the rules and make them follow them.