US$ to Thai ฿. Thai banks and Schwab Visa

[gamb00ler]

There was a long thread about the Schwab Visa back in 2011.  @Pib & @JimGant participated.

 

I've been checking out the US$ to TH฿ exchange rates and methods for a couple of months.

 

I and my Thai family deal with 4 Thai banks so I've been tracking the TT exchange rates that they offer.   They do not  differ by much.  All 4 banks adjust their rate several times during the Thai business hours.  I always used the days closing rate for my records.  The averages from best to worst are: SCB 33.393, BKK 33.383, Kasikorn 33.372 and Land+House 33.341.  I used rates from 15 different days between Oct. 15 and Dec. 23.

 

I also have checked out doing exchange by using my no-fee Visa debit card from Schwab for ATM and bank counter withdrawals.  Visa sets the exchange rate each day about 8AM (Thai time) and doesn't seem to change it throughout the day.  The transaction may be processed a few days after the withdrawal but Visa uses the rate in effect on the date the transaction was initiated(at least for my ATM withdrawal).

 

I first used my Schwab card at an SCB ATM on Sun. afternoon (12-Dec) to withdraw 16K Thai ฿ roughly equivalent to my US$500 ATM limit.  I then walked over to feed the BKK bank cash deposit machine.  The transaction was processed and appeared on my Schwab account on Tue. (14-Dec) and the exchange rate used was that shown on the Visa exchange rate website for 12-Dec.  I was charged $484.61 but also simultaneously received a credit of $6.57 for the ATM fees leaving a net cost of $478.04 or 33.47/US$.

 

On Monday I went into my home branch of BKK bank and enquired about doing a counter withdrawal using the same Schwab card and any associated fees.  The young lady responded in fairly good English that it was possible and BKK bank would add no fees for the transaction.  She also answered me that the only limit on the amount would be due to Schwab's restrictions.

 

After I observed the exchange rate movements for a few days I decided Thursday (23-Dec) was a good day to try my first counter withdrawal.  I went for the maximum Schwab allows and asked for the proceeds to be deposited into my BKK savings account.  It went very quickly even though my teller was interrupted to help a co-worker.  They only asked for my passport and bankbook.

 

Since Visa doesn't change the exchange rate during Thai business hours, I decided to watch the exchange rate movements on the Wise website.  Adjustments to the Visa exchange rate lag the Wise rate.  I decided it would be best to exchange when the Wise rate has risen for a few days and then turns South a bit.  When that happens I should still get the better rate as set in the early AM by Visa.  That scenario happened on Thur. so I pulled the trigger.  If my observations are correct I should get the Thursday AM Visa rate of 33.566033.  The Wise rate settled later on Thursday PM at 33.54.

 

I'll post the results when Schwab processes the transaction.

[Mitkof Island]

Do you have to have an address in America to apply to Schwab to get the ATM card? And what limit do they have on the ATM card  ?

[gamb00ler]

 

8 minutes ago, Mitkof Island said:

Do you have to have an address in America to apply to Schwab to get the ATM card? And what limit do they have on the ATM card  ?

I think you can open an International account with Schwab using a Thai address.  I do think they have a minimum balance requirement of 10K $USD.  But I heard that a long time ago so it could be outdated.  The Schwab website is substantial and will likely answer your questions better than I.

 

I have a US based brokerage account so the limits I give may be specific to it.

The limit for ATM withdrawal is $500 per withdrawal.  There are more limits such as per day but I didn't record them.  The limit for withdrawal at the bank counter is 15K $US per day.  There is no foreign transaction fee and all ATM fees are reimbursed at the time the transaction is processed.

 

Personally I maintain a mailing address in USA that I use for Schwab and other institutions.

[mtls2005]

So what's the main take-away? 

 

You seem to be comparing an $500 ATM withdrawal, with a $15,000 counter withdrawal, some 10 days removed . And have thrown in WISE for reference?

 

These are vastly different applications.

 

 Does Schwab offer fee-free international wire transfers? I thought that they did, but maybe that's account tier dependent.

 

 

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 PM, gamb00ler said:

They only asked for my passport and bankbook.

I mean they did ask for the card, right? Did you have to enter a PIN?

 

 

 

 

I still don't get these counter withdrawals. Are they cash advances, but paid off instantly via an internal Schwab settlement? Or is it an ATM withdrawal? How did this transaction show in your account summary?  Did you receive any communications (SMS, email) when this transaction was being made/completed?

 

 

 

[mtls2005]

You can check the visa rate here: https://usa.visa.com/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html

 

 

 

[gamb00ler]

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

So what's the main take-away? 

 

You seem to be comparing an $500 ATM withdrawal, with a $15,000 counter withdrawal, some 10 days removed . And have thrown in WISE for reference?

 

These are vastly different applications.

 

 Does Schwab offer fee-free international wire transfers? I thought that they did, but maybe that's account tier dependent.

 

 

I mean they did ask for the card, right? Did you have to enter a PIN?

 

 

 

 

I still don't get these counter withdrawals. Are they cash advances, but paid off instantly via an internal Schwab settlement? Or is it an ATM withdrawal? How did this transaction show in your account summary?  Did you receive any communications (SMS, email) when this transaction was being made/completed?

 

 

 

Sorry... I should have included "debit" in the title.  The card in question is a Schwab Visa debit card.  Like most bank issued debit cards it also functions at ATM's.  Sufficient funds must be present in the account at transaction time.  I'm not sure if there is a hold on your balance for the time between the purchase/withdrawal and the actual processing time.

 

At an ATM the user is charged the 220฿ fee charged in Thailand for using foreign debit/ATM cards.  At BKK bank, and perhaps others, you can do a counter withdrawal against your current account balance without fees.  The maximum withdrawal limit set by Schwab is $500 at ATM and 15K $US as a daily accumulated purchase/withdrawal limit.  Schwab like many banks also has no fee for purchases/withdrawals using a debit card and also no foreign transaction fee.

 

No PIN required for counter withdrawals only passport for identification.

 

The ATM transaction description was "ATM Withdrawal.....ATMJIPD CENTRAL FESTIVA BANGKOK" and the refund for ATM fee was described as "Schwab ATM Rebate......SCHWAB ATM REBATE ATM SURCHARGE WAIVED".

 

My ATM withdrawal was done on a Sunday was not posted to my Schwab account for two days.  My counter withdrawal has not yet posted almost two days later so no details available as yet.

 

I don't think Schwab has SMS alerts for most transactions so I'm not expecting one.  Perhaps their phone app will give me a notification at processing time.

 

I used the Visa website and the Wise website to monitor changes in the exchange rate to try and catch a short term rate peak in my favor.  I'll know if that was successful when the transaction gets posted to my Schwab account.

[mtls2005]

What was the counter withdrawal transaction description?

 

A quick review of the Schwab Visa Debit Card Agreement indicates that this may be a point-of-sale purchase, with the merchant being Bangkok Bank and the product/service being Thai Baht. But that's just my guess.

 

https://www.schwab.com/resource/visa-debit-card-agreement

 

Daily Purchases Limit: This is the total amount that you may withdraw from your account each day to pay for purchases at an Interlink® or STAR® merchant using a PIN-based point-of-sale transaction or from a Visa® merchant using a signature-based point-of-sale transaction.     $15,000.

 

 

If you make withdrawals at other financial institutions by the use of a teller, such withdrawals may require our approval. Such approvals are referred to in this Agreement as “authorizations.” We may limit the number of authorizations that we provide to you each day, as for example, where called for by the procedures we use to safeguard your account. In addition, we may limit the number of withdrawals (including purchases) that you can make at ATMs or POS terminals, where called for by the procedures we use to safeguard your account. If for any reason the financial institution requesting the authorization is not able to contact us, or we are not able to respond to it for any reason, you may not be able to complete the transaction even though it would not exceed your available balance or the limitation contained in this Agreement.

 

 

 

 

 

[gamb00ler]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

What was the counter withdrawal transaction description?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, gamb00ler said:

 

 

The ATM transaction description was "ATM Withdrawal.....ATMJIPD CENTRAL FESTIVA BANGKOK" and the refund for ATM fee was described as "Schwab ATM Rebate......SCHWAB ATM REBATE ATM SURCHARGE WAIVED".

 

My ATM withdrawal was done on a Sunday was not posted to my Schwab account for two days.  My counter withdrawal has not yet posted almost two days later so no details available as yet.

 

[mtls2005]

OK, I'm confused.

 

You did an ATM Withdrawal for 16,000 THB.

 

 

And then ~ 10 days later you did a counter withdrawal for ~ 500,000 THB.

 

Is that correct?

 

I was asking how the second transaction was described in your Schwab account.

 

OK, I see this now:

 

My counter withdrawal has not yet posted almost two days later so no details available as yet.

 

 

That seems odd, that there is no record of a pending transaction? But maybe this is related to the Christmas holidays in the U.S.?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gamb00ler]

On 12/25/2021 at 2:42 PM, mtls2005 said:

That seems odd, that there is no record of a pending transaction? But maybe this is related to the Christmas holidays in the U.S.?

The counter withdrawal was processed on the evening of Mon Dec 27 Thai time.   Even though the withdrawal was processed 4 days later I did get the exchange rate that Visa posted at 7AM on the transaction date.  There was no indication in my Schwab account until the transaction was processed.

 

The entry in my Schwab account history says: "12/27/2021 as of 12/23/2021.....Visa Cash Advance.....BBL.branch-name.SUB.BCHIANGMAI...TH.....$xxxxxx"

 

I fared better than I would have if I had used Wise.  I saved about $80 in fees that Wise would charge for my transaction.  I got the same or slightly better exchange rate than using Wise because the Visa rate was fixed for 24 hours while the Wise rate showed the US$ was falling throughout the day of the transaction.

 

The Wise fees I quoted above are for funding the transaction from their Multi-currency account (ie. the lowest possible fee).

[gargamon]

Enjoy your Schwab Visa ATM card.

 

I did a comparison a couple of years ago with a Visa ATM card and a Matstercard ATM card(CapitalOne). Neither had any foreign transaction fees.  The Mastercard foreign conversion rate was 1% higher than the amount paid by the Visa card. For example, if the XE.com mid-day rate was 33.00 baht per the dollar, the Mastercard rate would be about 33.10, and the Visa rate would be 32.77. 

 

The CapitalOne card does not cover ATM fees. That's what your local ATM is for.

[mtls2005]

OK, thanks for the follow up.

 

Visa Cash Advance does give a better rate than WISE in addition to being fee-free, and a similar transaction ($15,000) today would net ~ 8,000 THB more. A significant amount. Definitely the way to go assuming the branch can do it.

 

My Fidelity ATM Debit Card is limited to $2,500 for a "Teller Advance". ????

 

[gamb00ler]

On 12/27/2021 at 11:08 PM, gargamon said:

Enjoy your Schwab Visa ATM card.

 

I did a comparison a couple of years ago with a Visa ATM card and a Matstercard ATM card(CapitalOne). Neither had any foreign transaction fees.  The Mastercard foreign conversion rate was 1% higher than the amount paid by the Visa card. For example, if the XE.com mid-day rate was 33.00 baht per the dollar, the Mastercard rate would be about 33.10, and the Visa rate would be 32.77. 

 

The CapitalOne card does not cover ATM fees. That's what your local ATM is for.

Are you sure about the comparison between the Visa and Mastercard exchange rates?

 

I did my first cash advance/withdrawal yesterday using my new CapitalOne card.  I requested ฿169,000.  I had checked the rate at https://www.mastercard.us/en-us/personal/get-support/convert-currency.html before going to the bank.  That webpage led me to believe the rate would be 33.997625 (pic #1).  In fact the exchange rate I received was 33.81234 which is 1/0.029275 (pic#2).

 

The Visa exchange rate at the time of withdrawal was 33.810033.  Apparently the Mastercard and Visa rates are almost identical.

[Pib]

I've found the Visa and Mastercard exchange rates to be very, very close to each other....sometimes Visa is better....sometimes Mastercard is better.  Visa use to be better....then it switched to Mastercard....have compared for a while to see which one is best now....but whoever is best it will on be by a tad.   I have and use both Visa and Mastercard no foreign transaction fee debit/credit cards....to include the Cap1 card.   

 

Any time someone says the Visa or Mastercard rate was exactly 1, 2, 3% lower than the other then that tells me person incurred a foreign transaction fee which is levied by their "card-issuing" bank and the person is unaware their card carries that foreign transaction fee.

 

The initial/pending exchange rate you see on your Cap1 acct may not end up being the final/posted exchange rate...the initial rate may not match the official Mastercard rate.  However, once the transaction settles/posts you will find the rate will match exactly (well, to several decimal places) the Mastercard "settlement" date which may be the same day or next business day or two of the actual transaction.   And the rate on the settlement date may be lower "or higher" than the date you actually did the transaction.

[shortstop2]

On 12/23/2021 at 7:28 PM, gamb00ler said:

Since Visa doesn't change the exchange rate during Thai business hours, I decided to watch the exchange rate movements on the Wise website.  Adjustments to the Visa exchange rate lag the Wise rate.  I decided it would be best to exchange when the Wise rate has risen for a few days and then turns South a bit.  When that happens I should still get the better rate as set in the early AM by Visa.  That scenario happened on Thur. so I pulled the trigger. 

I use more or less the same system using my Fidelity debit card linked to a Cash Management Account.

 

My question is when does a new day begin?   I am not sure what rate I will receive if my transaction is after midnight Thai time so I usually make my withdrawal around 11PM Thai time.   I am looking for as big a price drop as possible in the previous 10 hours on the Yahoo Currency website.  I'm looking for a 10 hour change of 0.5% or greater.   But there are some days such as when the Fed makes an announcement in the late afternoon USA time.

 

My question is if I make a withdrawal after midnight Thai time will I still get the old stale rate or will it be adjusted using the next day's rate even though it hasn't yet been chosen and published?

[gargamon]

14 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Are you sure about the comparison between the Visa and Mastercard exchange rates?

Yes, I'm sure. I withdrew 10k from each at thse same time in the same Bangkok Bank. The visa rate was worse by 1%.

 

Please do the same to verify, as my testing was years ago. Please post your results.

[gamb00ler]

I didn't do near simultaneous withdrawals yet.  I probably will soon.

 

I thought I understood how the Mastercard website could be used to determine the applicable rate for a teller withdrawal in Thailand.  The amount withdrawn from my CapitalOne account disagreed with my understanding of their website.  I thought the MC rate page functioned in the same manner as the Visa rate page.

 

@Pib commented above that the amount CapitalOne shows may change when the transaction is actually processed.

 

I'll post the actual results when the CapitalOne settlement occurs.

[mtls2005]

6 hours ago, shortstop2 said:

My question is when does a new day begin? 

My best/only guess would be midnight EST/EDT? So 11:00 AM here. But I guess it could easily be Pacific time? Some banks clear ATM activity at 9:00 PM EST.

 

Maybe inquire?

 

 

And that it is based on transaction authorization date/time (and not clearing or settlement). 

 

And maybe the rate stays consistent for 24 hours? This guess is based on the Visa US calculator, which only allows you to enter a date.

 

5 hours ago, gargamon said:

The visa rate was worse by 1%.

It was EXACTLY 1%? What/who is the card issuer, for the Visa card and the MC card? My guess is that they, and not Visa, added this fee, which is likely documented in the terms and conditions of your card.

 

And getting EXACTLY 1% seems nigh on impossible,. If you said 0.95%, or 1.02% that might make more sense.

 

 

 

[howlee101]

On 12/23/2021 at 9:51 PM, gamb00ler said:

 

I think you can open an International account with Schwab using a Thai address.  I do think they have a minimum balance requirement of 10K $USD.  But I heard that a long time ago so it could be outdated.  The Schwab website is substantial and will likely answer your questions better than I.

 

I have a US based brokerage account so the limits I give may be specific to it.

The limit for ATM withdrawal is $500 per withdrawal.  There are more limits such as per day but I didn't record them.  The limit for withdrawal at the bank counter is 15K $US per day.  There is no foreign transaction fee and all ATM fees are reimbursed at the time the transaction is processed.

 

Personally I maintain a mailing address in USA that I use for Schwab and other institutions.

Just a few inputs and (hopefully) to answer a few things.

 

If I'm reading correctly, gamb00ler is withdrawing $$ from a debit card from his Charles Schwab brokerage account.  I have a Charles Schwab checking account and have a Schwab debit card for that account.   

    -- In order to open a Schwab checking account, you must first open a brokerage account.  I opened a brokerage account with $50 which allowed me to open a checking account....transferred $25 from brokerage to checking and I was set to go.  It may have changed but you needed to have a US mailing address.  I still have the $25 in the brokerage account (over 4 years now) and never used it. 

 

From my usage regarding my checking account debit card, the withdrawal limit is restricted by the Thai bank's ATM (some 30K baht, others 20K baht per day).  Many times I have withdrawn 30k from ATM x and 20k from ATM y.  Yes both ATMs charge the 220 baht fee but I get refunded all ATM fees by Schwab, typically monthly.  

[mtls2005]

On 12/27/2021 at 10:08 PM, gamb00ler said:

The entry in my Schwab account history says: "12/27/2021 as of 12/23/2021.....Visa Cash Advance.....BBL.branch-name.SUB.BCHIANGMAI...TH.....$xxxxxx"

 

So is this a Cash Advance, in that it starts accruing interest until re-paid? And that you pay it off almost immediately? Or is it simply a withdrawal of funds in the associated Schwab Bank High Yield Investor Checking account, and they classify this as a Cash Advance?

 

 

On 12/25/2021 at 11:39 AM, gamb00ler said:

No PIN required for counter withdrawals only passport for identification.

This is still a bit surprising.

 

But this must be in the Bangkok Bank CSR script re: authorizations.

 

 

 

I can see increased interest in these sorts of topics as we tip over 34.

 

 

[mtls2005]

10 minutes ago, howlee101 said:

From my usage regarding my checking account debit card, the withdrawal limit is restricted by

Schwab. $1,000 per day.

 

This thread also discusses teller advances, up to $15,000 per day, fee-free with the Visa exchange rate.

[gamb00ler]

39 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

So is this a Cash Advance, in that it starts accruing interest until re-paid? And that you pay it off almost immediately? Or is it simply a withdrawal of funds in the associated Schwab Bank High Yield Investor Checking account, and they classify this as a Cash Advance?

The card in question is a Visa debit card associated with my Schwab1 brokerage account.  I can only withdraw funds that are already in the account.

 

If I have assets in the brokerage account that I can use as margin, I CAN withdraw an amount in excess of the cash balance.  I would be charged the going margin rate until the balance is paid or assets converted to cash.  I only took advantage of the automatic margin loan one time when on vacation I happened upon a very pristine 1985 GoldWing LTD that I just had to take home.

[shortstop2]

Quote

16000 Thai Baht = 471.836744 United States Dollar
% Mark-up over European Central Bank Rate = 0.28

1 Thai Baht = 0.0294897965 United States Dollar
1 United States Dollar = 33.910033 Thai Baht

Currencies fluctuate every day. The rate shown is effective for transactions submitted to Visa on April 26, 2022, with a bank foreign transaction fee of 0.0%.

Another issue is does the daily fluctuation of the % Mark -Up over the ECB rate matter?

 

My guess is that the reason it varies daily is because the ECB releases their daily rate at 16:15 CET and while the Visa rate changes somewhat after that.  The Visa rate may incorporate changes between these hours and is probably more dependent on the Euro/USD cross rate than any news coming out of Thailand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

Schwab. $1,000 per day.

Ya, I was surprised by the OP's mention of having a $500 limit on his Schwab debit card.

 

Most Schwab account holders, domestic U.S. based accounts, that I've known typically have the $1000 limit you mention here...

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

The card in question is a Visa debit card associated with my Schwab1 brokerage account.  I can only withdraw funds that are already in the account.

 

Actually, Schwab has a nice feature relating to that....

 

The Schwab debit card, for U.S. domestic based accounts at least, is linked to a checking account at Schwab Bank.  So your debit account balance is there.

 

But, if you need to make a debit card withdrawal or purchase for more than the current cash balance in your checking account, Schwab will automatically pull the needed funds out of your CASH balance in your main brokerage account with them to cover the extra amount.... without any penalty or fee.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

So is this a Cash Advance, in that it starts accruing interest until re-paid? And that you pay it off almost immediately? Or is it simply a withdrawal of funds in the associated Schwab Bank High Yield Investor Checking account, and they classify this as a Cash Advance?

 

 It's the second of the two options you mention above, simply a debit transaction against the checking account via the associated VISA debit card.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, howlee101 said:

From my usage regarding my checking account debit card, the withdrawal limit is restricted by the Thai bank's ATM (some 30K baht, others 20K baht per day).  Many times I have withdrawn 30k from ATM x and 20k from ATM y.  Yes both ATMs charge the 220 baht fee but I get refunded all ATM fees by Schwab, typically monthly.  

 

Krungsri ATMs (yellow) allow max 30K baht per transaction. TMB (blue) used to allow the same, though I haven't used them since their merger. Bangkok Bank ATMs allow up to 25K per withdrawal.

 

I don't know of any other Thai banking companies, off hand, that also allow the max 30K per withdrawal from their ATMs.

 

Although, SCB in some BKK locations was rolling out some fancy new ATMS that allowed up to 150K per withdrawal. But I never got around to finding out whether that limit would apply only to domestic SCB card withdrawals, or also to using other Thai bank cards or even foreign cards with those particular SCB ATMs.

 

[KhunLA]

My latest ATM/ TT transaction (BBL TT rate) as I always expect about ฿0.5 difference

19 Apr     16,000 / 482.02 = 33.06 (33.55)

 

If doing today, I would expect to receive about ฿33.58 / $1 USD

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

My best/only guess would be midnight EST/EDT? So 11:00 AM here. But I guess it could easily be Pacific time? Some banks clear ATM activity at 9:00 PM EST.

 

 

I know for my OTHER smaller, non-mega bank U.S. checking accounts / debit cards, the daily withdrawal limits reset at midnight at the time of where the bank company is headquartered.

 

But I don't think / can't recall ever having to deal with that issue with Schwab, so I'm not sure how it works in their case....

 

I believe Schwab Bank is headquartered in Nevada, which is in the Pacific time zone... But I can't say for sure that time zone applies in regard to their debit card daily limit resets.

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/25/2021 at 9:09 AM, mtls2005 said:

Does Schwab offer fee-free international wire transfers? I thought that they did, but maybe that's account tier dependent.

Regarding international wires, again, at least for U.S. based accounts, they do offer a limited number for free (with no wire fee). But I believe the accountholder needs to have a combined accounts balance with them exceeding $100,000 for that quarter in order to qualify.