Acceptable noise level in a condominium? I am looking for numbers

[OneMoreFarang]

I like to know which noise levels are acceptable in condominiums in Thailand (Bangkok).

 

I ask because I consider if and how much noise isolation is a good idea when I renovate a unit.

I.e. I could try to use a door which is well sealed and/or add noise reduction material to the walls.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to play music with disco level output. But I want to know what is considered normal and acceptable and what is considered too loud.

It would be great to know numbers - SPL levels. 

 

I have a calibrated microphone and (free) software which can show exact details.

REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software

Acoustic Measurement Tools: UMIK-1 (minidsp.com)

 

Do you know any numbers of allowed/recommended SPL levels in Bangkok condominiums? Or is that maybe up to the rules of the building?

 

This is just a sample of the SPL meter in above software.

[Airalee]

When I was playing Nine Inch Nails at 113 db, the guy upstairs complained.  At 53db you’ll be fine.

 

1.  Bass is gonna travel.

 

2.  If you think that 60k is too expensive for a bed, don’t bother asking what proper soundproofing will cost.

[OneMoreFarang]

29 minutes ago, Airalee said:

When I was playing Nine Inch Nails at 113 db, the guy upstairs complained.  At 53db you’ll be fine.

 

1.  Bass is gonna travel.

 

2.  If you think that 60k is too expensive for a bed, don’t bother asking what proper soundproofing will cost.

Thanks

About the cost: It depends. I.e. a well sealed door will make a bigger difference than a thicker wall.

 

The 53 in the picture above is just a sample screenshot.

[Stocky]

My experience is with a shophouse unit, you can get people to turn volume down but it's the bass that's the problem; subwoofers are a total pain.

[ChaiyaTH]

Depends on your neighbors tolerance, with me very little.

 

Happy most condos are mainly empty, would been a hell if they actually were fully rented and noisy like older Thai style buildings.

Edited January 8, 2022 by ChaiyaTH

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Stocky said:

subwoofers are a total pain.

And I was thinking if one is enough or if I should buy two of them. ???? 

[LarrySR]

If the neighbors hear it, it's too loud. 

I told my neighbors I like my rock n roll as loud as possible without bothering anyone and asked my neighbors if they could hear it. I don't want them to hear mine and I definitely don't want to hear theirs.

Of course I don't turn the bass way up like the Thais do. 

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks

About the cost: It depends. I.e. a well sealed door will make a bigger difference than a thicker wall.

 

The 53 in the picture above is just a sample screenshot.

Soundproofing isn’t about “thicker walls”

 

Your immediate neighbors (above/below/to the sides) will hear your subwoofer.  A well sealed door won’t make a bit of difference.

[The Hammer2021]

We had noisy people sub letting who ignored  requests to be quiet. The condo  management cut off their water, electric  and digital key after three warnings in one week.

[OneMoreFarang]

10 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Soundproofing isn’t about “thicker walls”

 

Your immediate neighbors (above/below/to the sides) will hear your subwoofer.  A well sealed door won’t make a bit of difference.

Thanks for your reply.

 

Normally I like your very knowable replies. But in this case I am a little confused.

Noise, talking, screaming, music, maybe using some tools, are not only low frequencies.

I understand that it is difficult (and maybe very difficult to impossible) to soundproof low frequencies which are often created by subwoofers.

But medium and high frequencies can be soundproofed.

I am sure you know all this. So maybe what you are saying, or not saying is: Don't worry about the medium and high frequencies because they are not a big problem. The big problem are the low frequencies and you can't remove them easily. Is that what you think?

I am learning and I appreciate your advice. 

[moogradod]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And I was thinking if one is enough or if I should buy two of them. ???? 

That is rather a question of quality than quantity for you would want to eliminate standing waves. This means buy rather two than one but you should not turn them on so much that you could destintictively hear them. Sub-placement is an art, too. Less is more in this regard unless you are at a Thai wedding, monk inititiation etc. You know what I mean.

 

To the OP: Sound isolation means actually building a room in a room. Extremely expensive.

 

And.....I believe as well it depends on the time of the day - there must be room for music lovers to enjoy their high end systems as near to the original recording as possible - and this can become loud. The more I think about it - move to a house if music reproduction really matters for you.

[OneMoreFarang]

25 minutes ago, LarrySR said:

If the neighbors hear it, it's too loud. 

I told my neighbors I like my rock n roll as loud as possible without bothering anyone and asked my neighbors if they could hear it. I don't want them to hear mine and I definitely don't want to hear theirs.

Of course I don't turn the bass way up like the Thais do. 

I understand what you are saying. But I am sure different people will have different ideas about "too loud".

This is why I asked if anybody knows about acceptable/allowed SPL level numbers. Because they are relative easy to measure.

[moogradod]

2 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I understand what you are saying. But I am sure different people will have different ideas about "too loud".

This is why I asked if anybody knows about acceptable/allowed SPL level numbers. Because they are relative easy to measure.

You answer your own question: It is subjective. About "allowed" I am not so sure. Depends on your condo regulations maybe.

[OneMoreFarang]

6 minutes ago, moogradod said:

That is rather a question of quality than quantity for you would want to eliminate standing waves. This means buy rather two than one but you should not turn them on so much that you could destintictively hear them. Sub-placement is an art, too. Less is more in this regard unless you are at a Thai wedding, monk inititiation etc. You know what I mean.

 

To the OP: Sound isolation means actually building a room in a room. Extremely expensive.

 

And.....I believe as well it depends on the time of the day - there must be room for music lovers to enjoy their high end systems as near to the original recording as possible - and this can become loud. The more I think about it - move to a house if music reproduction really matters for you.

I bought The Audiophile’s Guide – PS Audio to learn about speaker placement, subs, etc. 

Paul is an expert and I can highly recommend this book.

 

[moogradod]

12 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I bought The Audiophile’s Guide – PS Audio to learn about speaker placement, subs, etc. 

Paul is an expert and I can highly recommend this book.

I know Paul. I have been one of the first customers of PS Audio in Europe for its P300 (his first power "conditioner" ever (I made a mistake in my previous post, it did not need a converter, but all plugs were American Hospital Grade. EXCELLENT.

 

As far as superb books are concerned you risk maybe a look at "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" by Robert Harley. With a foreword of Keith Jarrett. Then I had a 600+ page guide - I think it was called Handbook to Acoustics or similar. I did not bring it with me here because I thought it would be of no use for me (since I left my High-End System behind when we did move)

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by moogradod
Mistake in description

[Pravda]

There is a cute girl next door to us. She likes to play music after midnight (maybe she shags someone I dunno). One night I got fed up because as others have said the bass travels through walls with incredible annoyance. The worst thing is when I got next to her door I couldn't hear a thing. I still decided to ring because I was sure it was her music. She didn't answer, but the bass stopped right away.

[Airalee]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks for your reply.

 

Normally I like your very knowable replies. But in this case I am a little confused.

Noise, talking, screaming, music, maybe using some tools, are not only low frequencies.

I understand that it is difficult (and maybe very difficult to impossible) to soundproof low frequencies which are often created by subwoofers.

But medium and high frequencies can be soundproofed.

I am sure you know all this. So maybe what you are saying, or not saying is: Don't worry about the medium and high frequencies because they are not a big problem. The big problem are the low frequencies and you can't remove them easily. Is that what you think?

I am learning and I appreciate your advice. 

Yes, it’s primarily the low frequencies that will travel through walls.  
 

The mids and highs not as much (at relatively low levels).  Also, when it comes to soundproofing, different materials/densities etc seem to be used for different frequencies.  Some people will just say “put up another sheet of gypsum board” or “get some roxul” but at best, you’ll lower the sound a few decibels.  I looked into what would be needed to get a truly soundproofed room (like those piano practice rooms or professional recording studios) and what goes into building them is quite intricate.  It’s not just “get some green glue and some roxul boards and you’re good to go.

 

Condo living comes with compromises.  Both for you (and myself) in that we can’t blast our stereos at all times of the day and night.  But also for the neighbors in that they can’t expect tomb like silence 24/7.  If either side wants that, then they should have rented a house in the woods.

 

I knew that sooner or later I would get a complaint.  It’s just that I was surrounded by empty units for about a year and had nobody living within 2 floors of me.  Now that someone has moved in above me and I also have a couple neighbors on my floor (not directly next to me yet thank God) I accept that I have to change my ways.  So, at night I’m quiet with music (movies) at low levels and during the day once in a while (noonish-3pm) I’ll turn the volume up a bit.  Of course, never to the 113db (average) that I was rocking out that one time.

 

Maybe the best thing to do is when you meet your neighbors in the hallway, introduce yourself, tell them that you don’t want to bother them with your stereo and let them know that if it’s too loud, then please come and let you know so that you can work out appropriate levels together (actually testing them walking back and forth between units) and also see if there is a time that they are agreeable to on occasion (like a Saturday afternoon) or whenever that you can cut loose.

 

Of course, a well sealed door make some difference, but 1. Don’t most decent condos have well sealed doors anyways? And 2.  It’s not going to be the people down the hallway complaining as much as people that share a wall/ceiling/floor.

[Lucky Bones]

One More Farang. Bloke, I have got to admit that you are a really funny guy.

This may be your best post to date.

Will be interesting to read responses.

Keep it coming

[OneMoreFarang]

20 minutes ago, Pravda said:

There is a cute girl next door to us. She likes to play music after midnight (maybe she shags someone I dunno). One night I got fed up because as others have said the bass travels through walls with incredible annoyance. The worst thing is when I got next to her door I couldn't hear a thing. I still decided to ring because I was sure it was her music. She didn't answer, but the bass stopped right away.

Maybe tell her you want to hear her sound system up close... ???? 

 

[Hamus Yaigh]

4 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I like to know which noise levels are acceptable in condominiums in Thailand

It depends on the juristic office rules? In our condo there is absolutely no renovation noise allowed outside hours of 10am-4pm on a weekday and non on weekends. That was when people didn't work from home, might have changed since.

 

I was working from home and the neighbor was renovating drilling and vibrating the walls so much items fell off my shelves. Our walls are not thin, I cannot hear the neighbors otherwise. You're meter won't be of any use in such cases. It's bloody obvious when you will p off the neighbors.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Hamus Yaigh

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

21 hours ago, Airalee said:

don’t bother asking what proper soundproofing will cost.

I did it myself in my office because any noise really pj$#es me off. It's pretty quiet here, we're surrounded by fields and the village is at least 500 metres away, but as already pointed out, bass is the problem and it travels miles. The lower the frequency, the more room space you're going to lose to stop the sound with soundproofing. Bass frequencies need air gaps of several feet to collapse the sound wave and absorb it due to the long wavelength. The gap also needs to be above the ceiling and below the floor otherwise you achieve nothing. It's extremely expensive and it's an enormously complicated field of expertise and I actually really enjoyed researching it.

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Led Lolly Yellow Lolly

[Yellowtail]

Carpeting helps a lot. 

 

A second layer of gyp-board will little if just stuck on the existing wall, but with a 5cm gap between the two the reduction will be significant. 

 

It you're worried about your theater room, carpet on the floor, double ceiling, acoustic foam on the walls between the neighbors unit. 

 

Before you buy anything, read up on sound attenuation. 

[Shannoblic]

May I offer you the advice of a retired UK Environmental Health Officer?

 

As with many things, there is no set level of noise [music or otherwise] in UK - and as far as I am aware in Thai - law.

It is not a measurable 'noise' level which makes something acceptable or not acceptable.  Basically, the problem is the level of 'nuisance' it causes.  What does not cause a nuisance to neighbours in a detached home may well cause a nuisance in a block of flats or a semi-detached house.

 

Over the years I have had to take many cases to court and although the magistrates have been interested in the physical noise levels they have concentrated more on 'nuisance' values. 

[OneMoreFarang]

19 minutes ago, Shannoblic said:

May I offer you the advice of a retired UK Environmental Health Officer?

 

As with many things, there is no set level of noise [music or otherwise] in UK - and as far as I am aware in Thai - law.

It is not a measurable 'noise' level which makes something acceptable or not acceptable.  Basically, the problem is the level of 'nuisance' it causes.  What does not cause a nuisance to neighbours in a detached home may well cause a nuisance in a block of flats or a semi-detached house.

 

Over the years I have had to take many cases to court and although the magistrates have been interested in the physical noise levels they have concentrated more on 'nuisance' values. 

Thanks

I understand what you are writing and yes, I guess it makes a difference what kind of noise, and not just how loud.

I asked for numbers because that is relative easy to measure. I.e. I measure in my apartment in one room x dB and then I go to another room behind a closed door or maybe I measure outside my apartment door how much the sound level is reduced. And yes, the reduction will be different for different frequencies.

 

After reading lots of comments here I guess my solution will be to install some basic not too expensive sound isolation and probably some kind of sound isolated apartment door. And then let's look and see. Probably I will play my music or soundtrack mostly with a volume which is no problem at all. And just in case I want to play it louder then I can do that i.e. one afternoon and then I ask the neighbors if they heard anything annoying. As long as the neighbors know that it is not my intention to annoy them and that I am happy if they tell me it's too loud then I guess that is good enough. 

[Yellowtail]

I think your plan is to buy a condo (or perhaps you already bought it) and do a full renovation.

 

If that is the case, doing double-wall & ceiling sound attenuation is not that much money in the scheme of things, and it will both keep noise in, and keep noise out. It can l also help reduce your cooling load.   

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

53 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I think your plan is to buy a condo (or perhaps you already bought it) and do a full renovation.

 

If that is the case, doing double-wall & ceiling sound attenuation is not that much money in the scheme of things, and it will both keep noise in, and keep noise out. It can l also help reduce your cooling load.   

Thanks. Probably I will buy it sometime soon and then I will look at the possibilities, especially in the dropped ceiling. I suspect there are lots of gaps. I saw in a couple of videos that one big issue are gaps where the sound can get through. Let's look how that looks like and let's look how easy it is to seal it all. I am sure that will keep me occupied for some time. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks. Probably I will buy it sometime soon and then I will look at the possibilities, especially in the dropped ceiling. I suspect there are lots of gaps. I saw in a couple of videos that one big issue are gaps where the sound can get through. Let's look how that looks like and let's look how easy it is to seal it all. I am sure that will keep me occupied for some time. 

Ruskin and Mason both build quality sound control products in Thailand. You likely do not want to buy from them, but both companies have good websites that you can learn a lot from. 

 

There are also websites dedicated to inexpensive noise reduction. Some make sense, some not so much.

 

After studying both, it will be relatively easy to design something "on the cheap", that will perform nearly as well as the Mason and Ruskin products. 

[ThomasThBKK]

On 1/8/2022 at 5:03 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

And I was thinking if one is enough or if I should buy two of them. ???? 

With low frequencies the room modes are the biggest issues, ur comment about a second sub wasn't too far off.

 

https://kaistale.com/blog/130928roommodes/index.html This is how modes spread.

 

Ideally you would have 2 or more subwoofers and position them in a away that the bass is good at your listening positon, geddes recommends 3 subwoofers, weltis research (harman kardon) 4 (midway on the room walls, or in corners). That way you don't need to turn volume up to 11 to have decent feeling, which also helps with your neighbours...

 

2 or more subs aren't actually "louder" as they cancel each other modes out, they just give you a more even, less drowing bass. As you are familiar with REW, you can use the Room Simulator to play around with subwoofer placement.

 

For soundproofing itself, the home theater crowd in the US uses mostly green glue sandwiched between drywall, i would recommend avsforum and co for more info on how to: https://www.greengluecompany.com/ . That said, to really really soundproof a room is expensive and hard to do as i painfully found out.

 

 

PS: if u want to read more besides the book you already mentioned this one from dr floyd toole is considered the best "audio bible": https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

5 minutes ago, ThomasThBKK said:

With low frequencies the room modes are the biggest issues, ur comment about a second sub wasn't too far off.

 

https://kaistale.com/blog/130928roommodes/index.html This is how modes spread.

 

Ideally you would have 2 or more subwoofers and position them in a away that the bass is good at your listening positon, geddes recommends 3 subwoofers, weltis research (harman kardon) 4 (midway on the room walls, or in corners). That way you don't need to turn volume up to 11 to have decent feeling, which also helps with your neighbours...

 

2 or more subs aren't actually "louder" as they cancel each other modes out, they just give you a more even, less drowing bass. As you are familiar with REW, you can use the Room Simulator to play around with subwoofer placement.

 

For soundproofing itself, the home theater crowd in the US uses mostly green glue sandwiched between drywall, i would recommend avsforum and co for more info on how to: https://www.greengluecompany.com/ . That said, to really really soundproof a room is expensive and hard to do as i painfully found out.

 

 

PS: if u want to read more besides the book you already mentioned this one from dr floyd toole is considered the best "audio bible": https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092 

 

Thanks. And I am reading the recommended book already. Interesting! And I have a lot to learn.

And then there is of course the money issue. I am willing to pay a couple of thousand USD to have a good sound system. But when 3 or 5,000 is not enough anymore then at some stage the question comes up: How important is that for me. Am I really willing to spend huge amounts of money on that? Especially with the subs. One good sub is already expensive. Two or more of them cost a lot of money and then I can't even crank them up in my apartment. I guess one should be enough for me.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Thanks. And I am reading the recommended book already. Interesting! And I have a lot to learn.

And then there is of course the money issue. I am willing to pay a couple of thousand USD to have a good sound system. But when 3 or 5,000 is not enough anymore then at some stage the question comes up: How important is that for me. Am I really willing to spend huge amounts of money on that? Especially with the subs. One good sub is already expensive. Two or more of them cost a lot of money and then I can't even crank them up in my apartment. I guess one should be enough for me.

And can you even hear worth a flip any more. I know that to me, nothing sounds as good at it used to, and it is much harder to differentiate between okay, good and great  speakers.