ICE vs EV, the debate thread

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7 hours ago, Longwood50 said:

Maybe electric cars are the future.  However I suggest all the problems associated with them have not been discovered and they will have some very unintended consequences. 

1. First off, to be successful there has to be a replacement technology for Lithium based batteries.  Lithium is a precious metal whose price has skyrocketed.  It is also extremely enviornmentally damaging to mine it.  It takes 500,000 gallons of water to extract 1 ton of lithium.  That is enough to make about 90 cars on average. Less if they are long range or large SUV's or Trucks

2. Electricity comes from someplace.  Right now the vast majority of electricity is still generated from Coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear.  Only a small amount is from Wind, Solar, or hydro electric and even those renewable sources have enviornmentally damaging characteristics, Wind Turbines are enviornmentally damaging to build and erect, Solar panels again use materials that are enviornmentally harmful, and hydro electric dams alter the fisheries.  The wind turbines, solar panels and even dams have a life expectancy and their disposal creates enviornmental waste as does the electric wire, and insultion used in the wire to transmit the electricity.

3. Cost, the cost of electricity will rise with demand for it.  There is already a shortage of elecricity in many areas and using todays cost to charge is probably not indicative of what it will be going forward.  Also the price of an electric car is already significantly higher and will be even more so as the price for lithium rises.  Insurance costs on electric cars is and will become increasingly unaffordable.  Tesla's are being totalled in the USA with under 15,000 Kilometers on them because of the exhorbitant cost to repair an electric car.  The vast majority of that cost is the replacement of the battery pack. 

4. Resale value on a electric car plummets precipitously.  This becomes even more pronounced as the car reaches the age or mileage where prospective owners recongize the limited time left on the car and the cost of replacing the battery pack.  

5. Lithium batteries are recyclable however at present most are not.  The cost of recycling the battery is greater than the cost of building one new.  Hence there will be unless this is solved a huge problem with what to do with spent batteries. 

If electric cars were such a great alternative you would not have to have governments mandating their use and prohibiting ICE in certain regions.  If they were such a cost effective alternative, you would not have to have governments giving rebates and subsidies in order to sell them.  The public would flock to them recognizing the value of them.  They don't and why because the financial cost of an electric car at least today both to operate and purchase does not stack up well against an ICE.   The only people who will financially come out ahead are those who live in urban areas and drive a huge amount of mileage each year.  Taxi Drivers in Bangkok or elsewhere would be a good example.  The typical driver putting 15,000 to 20,000 km per year will never reduce their electric vs. gasoline cost enough to offset the higher cost of purchase and depreciation on the EV.  

What I most enjoyed about your comments was the absolute lack of links to  back up what you are claiming.

[overherebc]

Interesting.

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4 hours ago, overherebc said:

Interesting.

https://www.aquariusengines.com/technology/

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:36 AM, overherebc said:

Interesting.

It is interesting and seems like a technological tour de force but it's been around for nearly ten years now and for whatever reason doesn't seem to have made any real inroads into the automotive industry.

 

Quote

Aquarius Engine was invented in 2014 and is designed to be used as an onboard power generator in a vehicle or as a stand-alone electricity generator.

Aquarius Engine

Edited February 6, 2023 by GroveHillWanderer

[JBChiangRai]

30 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

It is interesting and seems like a technological tour de force but it's been around for nearly ten years now and for whatever reason doesn't seem to have made any real inroads into the automotive industry.

 

Aquarius Engine

oh wow!  an internal combustion engine, how very modern!

[GroveHillWanderer]

7 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

oh wow!  an internal combustion engine, how very modern!

The whole point is that it is a new and revolutionary re-design of the ICE. For one thing, it can run on hydrogen rather than fossil fuels. So in a sense yes, very modern.

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The whole point is that it is a new and revolutionary re-design of the ICE. For one thing, it can run on hydrogen rather than fossil fuels. So in a sense yes, very modern.

Conspiracy theories about to start,  big oil has bought the rights to build it and have put it on the shelf etc would be the first one.

It is strange that we don't hear a lot about it.

Edit

I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by overherebc

[JBChiangRai]

3 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

The whole point is that it is a new and revolutionary re-design of the ICE. For one thing, it can run on hydrogen rather than fossil fuels. So in a sense yes, very modern.

Any ICE with a spark plug can run on Hydrogen, it's just a matter of how you get the mixture right

 

Free piston engines developed from 1930, almost 100 years ago.

Edited February 6, 2023 by JBChiangRai

[driver52]

1 hour ago, overherebc said:

I don't believe in conspiracy theories.

what's the best thing about being a 'conspiracy theorist'?

not having myocarditis.......

I'll get me coat, cos I'm healthy enough to be able to do so 

[sezze]

As far as looking as the Aquarius engine , for me it totally looks like a 2 stroke in line engine . That it is very efficient is very true , but exhaust regulations will never pass Euro 2 norm , let alone Euro 7 which is underway.

As far as hydrogen goes , any engine can run on hydrogen. In fact , this is a very simple process , just a tiny bit difference then converting your engine to CNG . What is the issue with hydrogen ... a : in a combustion engine hydrogen is very unefficient . The pressure tank for holding the hydrogen is holding like 50 l but you will run out of hydrogen after 100km or something like that . b ; most hydrogen is made out of natural gas. While this is a efficient technique , it is not if you do not want CO2 emissions . Hydrogen can be made out of renewables but then the amount of electricity needed to split the H2O is very high. Hydrogen can and will be used in the future but not in a combustion engine . It will be in a fuel cell , which does convert the hydrogen to electricity and that will power a electric engine . Problem there so far is that the fuel cells are mighty expensive (they contain platinum) and also do not have a infinite lifetime . Work is in progress of trying to make them cheaper , by using nano materials , but forget about it being there tomorrow .

So what will be there tomorrow ? Well , EV's are here already , and will be here for the time coming. Car industry is very rapid switching to EV and while some markets will take longer , it will get there also. Lithium is a problem , but lot's of work has been done and tomorrow there will be a different battery inside . Like i mentioned somewhere else , Na-ion batteries are the next step and the world biggest producer of Li ion batteries is starting this year with the production of these .

[KhunLA]

ICE vs EV  ... pretty simply actually.   Continue to let them steal you money, or do something about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2023/02/07/bp-boasts-record-profits-as-oil-giants-report-historic-windfalls/?sh=6617d57f26a8

"BP Boasts Record Profits As Oil Giants Report Historic Windfalls"

 

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

ICE vs EV  ... pretty simply actually.   Continue to let them steal you money, or do something about it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2023/02/07/bp-boasts-record-profits-as-oil-giants-report-historic-windfalls/?sh=6617d57f26a8

"BP Boasts Record Profits As Oil Giants Report Historic Windfalls"

 

EV's do contain components that are produced from petrochemicals

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-much-oil-electric-vehicle/

[KhunLA]

4 hours ago, vinny41 said:

EV's do contain components that are produced from petrochemicals

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/how-much-oil-electric-vehicle/

.... and ?

Edited February 7, 2023 by KhunLA

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

.... and ?

So as per your post buying an EV hasn't made little difference to the petroleum companies as you still using there products everyday now and in for the foreseeable future

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

So as per your post buying an EV hasn't made little difference to the petroleum companies as you still using there products everyday now and in for the foreseeable future

Impossible not to.  Love plastic bags, as cutting down trees for paper bags is about as un 'eco' as can be.  Use cloth or larger synthetic bags when shopping, as Makro doesn't bag.   Plastic is not the demon, people's disposal of is.

 

Plastic containers are practical, though use mostly glass now if practical.

 

There is no need for ICE, for personal use, or fossil fuel for personal transport or home heating, electric production, if alternatives are used.

 

EVs eliminate huge part of oil use, production, pollution.  Don't bother with the oil company studies stating how everything about an EV is un eco friendly produced.

 

NO, you're not going to eliminate petrochemicals products, didn't imply you could or should.  Maybe in the distant future, but doubtful.

 

Just as you're not going to eliminate use of batteries, lithium, electronics, chips, China produced anything & everything for transportation & household, daily living.   Nobody's implying that either, except ignorant anti-China idiots.

 

Simply stated, you can continue giving your hard earned money to petrol companies, or choose an alterative, that you don't get scammed for.   Their price gouging is nothing but a scam.   That was pretty obvious ever since the 1970s oil shortage BS.  they seem to have a silly excuse every year or so to increase prices & profits.

 

Except now, there are practical, affordable, mass produced autos & scooters, and energy sources as an alternative, so you don't need to fall for their BS anymore.

 

Choice is yours.  Fill their pocket and add to their billions in profits with your money, or keep your money in your pocket.   I simply chose the latter.

 

UP2U

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Impossible not to.  Love plastic bags, as cutting down trees for paper bags is about as un 'eco' as can be.  Use cloth or larger synthetic bags when shopping, as Makro doesn't bag.   Plastic is not the demon, people's disposal of is.

 

Plastic containers are practical, though use mostly glass now if practical.

 

There is no need for ICE, for personal use, or fossil fuel for personal transport or home heating, electric production, if alternatives are used.

 

EVs eliminate huge part of oil use, production, pollution.  Don't bother with the oil company studies stating how everything about an EV is un eco friendly produced.

 

NO, you're not going to eliminate petrochemicals products, didn't imply you could or should.  Maybe in the distant future, but doubtful.

 

Just as you're not going to eliminate use of batteries, lithium, electronics, chips, China produced anything & everything for transportation & household, daily living.   Nobody's implying that either, except ignorant anti-China idiots.

 

Simply stated, you can continue giving your hard earned money to petrol companies, or choose an alterative, that you don't get scammed for.   Their price gouging is nothing but a scam.   That was pretty obvious ever since the 1970s oil shortage BS.  they seem to have a silly excuse every year or so to increase prices & profits.

 

Except now, there are practical, affordable, mass produced autos & scooters, and energy sources as an alternative, so you don't need to fall for their BS anymore.

 

Choice is yours.  Fill their pocket and add to their billions in profits with your money, or keep your money in your pocket.   I simply chose the latter.

 

UP2U

I think you will find that the majority of the increase pricing is a result of taxes

I don't believe for a  moment that a single motorist benefited from when oil was -$37 dollars a barrel as shown here

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/markets/oil-prices-tumble-lowest-level-1980s-n1187716

As for Petroleum by-products

Over 6,000 items are made from petroleum waste by-products, including: fertilizer, flooring (floor covering), perfume, insecticide, petroleum jelly, soap, vitamins and some essential amino acids.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_product

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

I think you will find that the majority of the increase pricing is a result of taxes

Not according to these 2 charts:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/204133/retail-prices-of-motor-fuel-in-the-united-states-since-2009/

 

Taxes - wiki:

[KhunLA]

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

What is the chart on the bottom right hand side?

 

Is it something people used to put in their cars last century?

[Gweiloman]

On 2/13/2023 at 1:05 PM, JBChiangRai said:

What is the chart on the bottom right hand side?

 

Is it something people used to put in their cars last century?

That’s really mean of you. Some of us have no choice but to put in some fuel. I personally had to pump in Thb1,300 worth of fuel in the last 5,000 kms driven. I still have 300 km range available from petrol ????

[KhunLA]

 

[pedro01]

It's more expensive to fuel an EV (unless you can charge on solar - good luck with that).

 

That plus when the batteries <deleted> out you are left with a massive bill that would be half the price of the car you purchased.

 

Hydrogen is where we'll end up.

[macahoom]

49 minutes ago, pedro01 said:

It's more expensive to fuel an EV (unless you can charge on solar - good luck with that).

 

That plus when the batteries <deleted> out you are left with a massive bill that would be half the price of the car you purchased.

 

Hydrogen is where we'll end up.

More silly, ill-informed talk.

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, pedro01 said:

It's more expensive to fuel an EV (unless you can charge on solar - good luck with that).

 

That plus when the batteries <deleted> out you are left with a massive bill that would be half the price of the car you purchased.

 

Hydrogen is where we'll end up.

EV (MG ZS)

... 360 kms @ home w/solar -0-

... 360 kms @ home w/grid @ ฿5 kwh = ฿232

... 360 kms @ MG SuperCharger

@ ฿7.5 kWh (฿8 kWh) = ฿371

 

ICE (MG ZS)

... 360 kms @ ฿36 per L = ฿1396 

 

“Oil prices tomorrow, March 2, 2023” Bangchak (update information from March 1, 2023)

Gasohol 95 price 36.35 baht/litre

Gasohol 91 price 36.08 baht/litre"

Edited March 3, 2023 by KhunLA

[placeholder]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:16 PM, pedro01 said:

It's more expensive to fuel an EV (unless you can charge on solar - good luck with that).

 

That plus when the batteries <deleted> out you are left with a massive bill that would be half the price of the car you purchased.

 

.

You sure about that?

Cost of electricity vs. gasoline

Here’s where EV owners win out. Going electric means you get to skip pricey trips to the pump, which is one of the biggest draws for making the switch. A 2018 study by the University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute found that the average cost to fuel an electric car was $485 a year, compared to $1,117 for a gas-powered vehicle. A 2020 Consumer Reports study similarly showed that EV drivers tend to spend about 60 percent less each year on fuel costs compared to drivers of gas-powered cars.

https://www.nrdc.org/stories/electric-vs-gas-it-cheaper-drive-ev

 

Vast majority of EV batteries will outlast their vehicles: report

A study of 21 electric vehicle models — and the introduction of an accompanying interactive tool — brings promising insights for real-world battery longevity

New research released by Geotab measuring the battery life of 6,300 fleet and consumer electric vehicles has provided new insights regarding the lifespan of EV batteries.

https://electricautonomy.ca/2019/12/17/vast-majority-of-ev-batteries-will-outlast-their-vehicles-report/

 

Electric Car Batteries Lasting Longer Than Predicted Delays Recycling Programs

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/?sh=4960eb1c5332

[KhunLA]

 

[transam]

It will be interesting in 10 years +, how batteries have really lasted, especially with the cheap rides, like MG.

 

I can't see how it can be claimed batteries will last for 10-20 years, as none have done it yet, except perhaps Tesla.

 

I think this, because with basic car batteries, with a 4 year warrantee back home, have failed early and cost the manufacturer money.

 

Furthermore, I expect a 10 year old EV will be worth near nothing, whereas, petrol/diesel rides, especially here, hold their value....

 

I to expect a real improvement in EV batteries, seem to read a lot about research on it, I reckon they know the EV batteries are a weak link...

 

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 3/4/2023 at 7:46 PM, transam said:

I can't see how it can be claimed batteries will last for 10-20 years, as none have done it yet, except perhaps Tesla.

It can be done because they can simulate the charging, discharging and recharging cycles involved in normal driving, in a laboratory setting.*

 

Which is exactly the kind of thing that manufacturers of all sorts of different consumer products have always done, to come up with scientifically accurate, estimated life spans of their products.

 

Do you really think that every manufacturer that announces a ten year life span for their newly-released product, has waited ten years since manufacturing the first one, before doing so?

 

*The article on the link below explains this in more detail 

 

Electric vehicle battery testing

Edited March 5, 2023 by GroveHillWanderer

[placeholder]

On 3/4/2023 at 7:46 PM, transam said:

It will be interesting in 10 years +, how batteries have really lasted, especially with the cheap rides, like MG.

 

I can't see how it can be claimed batteries will last for 10-20 years, as none have done it yet, except perhaps Tesla.

 

I think this, because with basic car batteries, with a 4 year warrantee back home, have failed early and cost the manufacturer money.

 

Furthermore, I expect a 10 year old EV will be worth near nothing, whereas, petrol/diesel rides, especially here, hold their value....

 

I to expect a real improvement in EV batteries, seem to read a lot about research on it, I reckon they know the EV batteries are a weak link...

 

 

Good News!

 

Electric Car Batteries Lasting Longer Than Predicted Delays Recycling Programs

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/?sh=5f26187b5332

And this is about the Nissan Leaf the batteries of which are air-cooled rather than liquid cooled.

[JBChiangRai]

MG also advertise that their battery packs are replaceable by module.  I think that is a fairly smart marketing idea.