ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

OMG ... it was a MG ZS ... ????

 

Suggested elsewhere, and makes sense, since "in a holding yard near Sydney Airport", possibly long term, that the battery was removed in an attempt to steal it.

An electric MG ZS EV – which had its battery removed

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by KhunLA

[Lacessit]

5 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I wouldn't describe him as ignorant, he has hands on practical experience as a Superintendent in the Fire and Rescue Service in NSW, one could argue his experience is more evidential & cumulative than a scientific or engineering theorist.

 

As for being a fool, I couldn't leap to that conclusion on his experience-based opinion being different from my theoretical one.  Having a different opinion doesn't make one a fool.

Would you kindly point me to an ISO standard which specifies chemical composition, physical structure and energy density to ensure the safe operation of batteries in EV's. You know, so they don't torch innocent ICE owners' vehicles in an underground car park.

 

Mr. Dewberry's experience is reactive, in dealing with the aftermath. Permit me to doubt he has any experience or input to the manufacturing process and specifications. Which are probably different for individual brands, from a Tesla to an Atto.

 

IMO EV's are as Wild West as cryptocurrency, and have the same characteristics of a religion among followers.

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Would you kindly point me to an ISO standard which specifies chemical composition, physical structure and energy density to ensure the safe operation of batteries in EV's. You know, so they don't torch innocent ICE owners' vehicles in an underground car park.

 

Mr. Dewberry's experience is reactive, in dealing with the aftermath. Permit me to doubt he has any experience or input to the manufacturing process and specifications. Which are probably different for individual brands, from a Tesla to an Atto.

 

IMO EV's are as Wild West as cryptocurrency, and have the same characteristics of a religion among followers.

ISO standards is deflecting, what's important is the hands on knowledge and experience of dealing with fires, however, I am sure most if not all battery packs conform to ISO 26262 (The safety standard for automotives containing lithium based battery packs).

 

It's true that EV owners often wax lyrical about their EV's because they have experience, whereas the anti-EV brigade haven't been converted and preach mostly from ignorance.

Edited September 13, 2023 by JBChiangRai
Spellong

[transam]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

ISO standards is deflecting, what's important is the hands on knowledge and experience of dealing with fires, however, I am sure most if not all battery packs confirm to ISO 26262 (The safety standard for automotives containing lithium based battery packs).

 

It's true that EV owners often wax lyrical about their EV's because they have experience, whereas the anti-EV brigade haven't been converted (yet).

EV's in LOS is sketchy regarding easy charging on the move, fact, that is why I would not be interested here at the present time.

 

You keep spouting anti-EV-ers, we will all be driving electric cars in the near future, so you keep saying that is daft, has anyone called you anti-Benzine Brigade, I don't think so.

 

Even the UK has charging probs with the increase in EV's, so LOS hasn't a chance if EV sales rise..

 

Please don't tell us AGAIN, you charge at home for the Tesco runs...????....????

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

EV's in LOS is sketchy regarding easy charging on the move, fact, that is why I would not be interested here at the present time.

I think you got that backward, as at present time, no probs, though maybe sketchy in the future as more EV hit the road.  So far, we've haven't needed to Q or even reserve a slot while O&A.

 

Heading out Friday, have 3 spots already picked out to top up.  Friday shouldn't be a problem, as before 1700, and not weekenders yet.  Not sure about Saturday, as will be on the tourist trail.   Though anyone coming from the 2 closest cities, Surat Thani or Nakhon Si Thammarat, won't need to top up if they are just out for the day, and easily be able to do R/T if full up leaving the house.  We will have topped up before ST, and need again, before NST.  

 

Although last choice is MG CS, though depending how much we drive, actually not much extra even possible, but gets close to 280 mark, I think.  May hit the earlier one, if going to stop any before MG.  We will have munched already, cruising down the lower gulf coast of the Gulf.

 

Actually been down there before, nice area.  Plenty of CS in between, I just prefer PEA & MG. 

 

 

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

I think you got that backward, as at present time, no probs, though maybe sketchy in the future as more EV hit the road.  So far, we've haven't needed to Q or even reserve a slot while O&A.

 

Heading out Friday, have 3 spots already picked out to top up.  Friday shouldn't be a problem, as before 1700, and not weekenders yet.  Not sure about Saturday, as will be on the tourist trail.   Though anyone coming from the 2 closest cities, Surat Thani or Nakhon Si Thammarat, won't need to top up if they are just out for the day, and easily be able to do R/T if full up leaving the house.  We will have topped up before ST, and need again, before NST.  

 

Although last choice is MG CS, though depending how much we drive, actually not much extra even possible, but gets close to 280 mark, I think.  May hit the earlier one, if going to stop any before MG.  We will have munched already, cruising down the lower gulf coast of the Gulf.

 

Actually been down there before, nice area.  Plenty of CS in between, I just prefer PEA & MG. 

 

 

 

Yes, yes, yes, same ol' same ol'...............????

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

ISO standards is deflecting, what's important is the hands on knowledge and experience of dealing with fires, however, I am sure most if not all battery packs conform to ISO 26262 (The safety standard for automotives containing lithium based battery packs).

 

It's true that EV owners often wax lyrical about their EV's because they have experience, whereas the anti-EV brigade haven't been converted and preach mostly from ignorance.

If you read as widely as I do, you would know there does not seem to be any standardized method of dealing with an EV fire. Except perhaps walk away, and leave the stored energy to burn itself out.

 

EV fires cannot be extinguished, the have their own oxygen supply.

 

Nor is there any specification in congested areas of how EV's should be parked to minimize risk.

 

"In cases of a lithium-ion battery fire, firefighters will cool down the battery and place it in a container with water to stop re-ignitions"

 

I don't know if that is Mr. Dewberry's statement, or that of a reporter. However, I find it difficult to believe a 60 KWh battery which is on fire can be cooled down or placed in a container of water, without causing serious injury, or death.

 

Metallic lithium is the lightest of the alkali metals, before sodium and potassium. It reacts with water to generate hydrogen in exactly the same way - violent exotherm.

 

If anything is ignorant, it is the addle-headed notion, shared by most EV owners, that they are saving the planet.

[JBChiangRai]

54 minutes ago, transam said:

EV's in LOS is sketchy regarding easy charging on the move, fact, that is why I would not be interested here at the present time.

 

You keep spouting anti-EV-ers, we will all be driving electric cars in the near future, so you keep saying that is daft, has anyone called you anti-Benzine Brigade, I don't think so.

 

Even the UK has charging probs with the increase in EV's, so LOS hasn't a chance if EV sales rise..

 

Please don't tell us AGAIN, you charge at home for the Tesco runs...????....????

You just don't get it, Thailand has a superb charging network whilst on the move.  Who knows if they can keep pace with EV sales, I hope so, but nobody knows.

 

Heading to Chiang Mai tomorrow & back Monday, probably won't get to Tesco's this trip.

[In the jungle]

So where exactly in Thailand is the EV battery recycling plant?

[JBChiangRai]

14 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

So where exactly in Thailand is the EV battery recycling plant?

Too new to need recycling yet

[In the jungle]

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Too new to need recycling yet

There must be crash damaged batteries, flood damaged and others that just failed. 

 

Hopefully they don't toss them into the land fill.

[transam]

32 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Too new to need recycling yet

I would have thought you of all people would have known the answer to that question.....................

[KhunLA]

53 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

So where exactly in Thailand is the EV battery recycling plant?

Ask again in 20 years, as some may have opened by then, if there's a need.

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

There must be crash damaged batteries, flood damaged and others that just failed. 

 

Hopefully they don't toss them into the land fill.

Hope you show the same concern for all your other LiPo batteries, or is it just the ones you don't use that you worry about.

[In the jungle]

Two evasive responses from the EV fan boys.

 

[transam]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Ask again in 20 years, as some may have opened by then, if there's a need.

Now Mr. MG is saying there is never an EV battery problem, you can't make this stuff up.....................????

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

Now Mr. MG is saying there is never an EV battery problem, you can't make this stuff up.....................????

If there's one with our, within next 7 yrs (8yr warranty), MG will deal with.  I would think within 10 yrs, battery shops will start popping up, as the supply & demand will dictate.

 

Unless an oops, I'm expecting the wife will get 25 yrs out of ours, before any need to be concerned, and that's if it only gets about half it's life expectancy.

 

900k kms ... if we drive/she drives 20k kms a year, that's only 500k kms.  Battery pack isn't the concern, and just hope the rest of the cars lasts.  I doubt very much if she'll drive that much after I'm gone.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by KhunLA

[transam]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

If there's one with our, within next 7 yrs (8yr warranty), MG will deal with.  I would think within 10 yrs, battery shops will start popping up, as the supply & demand will dictate.

 

Unless an oops, I'm expecting the wife will get 25 yrs out of ours, before any need to be concerned, and that's if it only gets about half it's life expectancy.

 

900k kms ... if we drive/she drives 20k kms a year, that's only 500k kms.  Battery pack isn't the concern, and just hope the rest of the cars lasts.  I doubt very much if she'll drive that much after I'm gone.

 

Go back and read what you said, 20 years.....................????

[JBChiangRai]

There are dozens of battery recycling plants in Thailand, none of them currently handle lithium batteries simply because there is no demand.

 

Many of them I am sure will transition to providing recycling for lithium batteries as demand increases, until that time, they are sent overseas.

 

Thai regulations prevent any batteries from going into landfill.

[In the jungle]

31 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

If there's one with our, within next 7 yrs (8yr warranty), MG will deal with.  I would think within 10 yrs, battery shops will start popping up, as the supply & demand will dictate.

 

Unless an oops, I'm expecting the wife will get 25 yrs out of ours, before any need to be concerned, and that's if it only gets about half it's life expectancy.

 

900k kms ... if we drive/she drives 20k kms a year, that's only 500k kms.  Battery pack isn't the concern, and just hope the rest of the cars lasts.  I doubt very much if she'll drive that much after I'm gone.

 

 

 

32 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I'm expecting the wife will get 25 yrs out of ours, before any need to be concerned, and that's if it only gets about half it's life expectancy.

Seriously?

 

You think an EV battery is still going to be going strong after 50 years?

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, In the jungle said:

 

 

Seriously?

 

You think an EV battery is still going to be going strong after 50 years?

50 yrs, don't care, 25 will suffice.   Some state LFPs will get 10k cycles, so 2500 is actually on the low end.  As long as the battery bank last as long as the rest of the car, I'm/She'll be thrilled.

 

We save over 450k baht, at least, every 8 yrs (if driving 20k a yr) by not have an ICEV.   If it last just 16 yrs, we got almost the full price of the EV (949k) back in petrol savings.

 

This will be our/hers last car, that's almost guaranteed.

[Lacessit]

26 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

There are dozens of battery recycling plants in Thailand, none of them currently handle lithium batteries simply because there is no demand.

 

Many of them I am sure will transition to providing recycling for lithium batteries as demand increases, until that time, they are sent overseas.

 

Thai regulations prevent any batteries from going into landfill.

Thai "regulations" make prostitution and gambling illegal.

Given where Thailand sits on the world corruption index, the last sentence of your post is an exercise in futility, and wishful thinking.

[JBChiangRai]

46 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Thai "regulations" make prostitution and gambling illegal.

Given where Thailand sits on the world corruption index, the last sentence of your post is an exercise in futility, and wishful thinking.

We agree on that.

[Gweiloman]

17 hours ago, Lacessit said:

 

IMO EV's are as Wild West as cryptocurrency, and have the same characteristics of a religion among followers.

 

15 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

It's true that EV owners often wax lyrical about their EV's because they have experience, whereas the anti-EV brigade haven't been converted and preach mostly from ignorance.

I find it strange that more often than not, it’s the anti-EV brigade that accuses pro-EV’ers of belonging to a religious cult when in my personal observation, it’s the anti’s that are more fanatical and close minded about their petrol and oh so filthy diesel engines.

 

As an EV owner, I’m fully aware of the shortcomings of EVs. My greatest concern is that of a thermal runaway; although rare, the risk is there and the result would be catastrophic, to say the least. I hope some brainiac could come up with some sort of fireproof car cover that In the event of a fire, it could be contained under the car cover. I’m well aware the temperatures can reach well above that of normal fires which is why it needs someone educated and smart enough to invent this, which basically rules out 99.9% of the AN crowd.

 

The anti’s also inevitably point out the range issue and running out of juice during a journey. In the first instance, if you are too dense and/or idiotic to know the SOC of your vehicle, are you even fit to be piloting a vehicle on public streets? As an ICEV owner, you will need to be on top of simple regular issues like engine oil, tyre pressure, amount of fuel and so on. Every EV owner should know their SOC at any point in time. We know however that there are unfortunately some idiots out there which is why BYD offers 2 free towing sessions in case one runs out of battery charge on the road. Not sure if it’s twice a year or twice in a lifetime (free towing).

 

Another issue brought up is the charging network. For the majority of EV owners, more than 90% of their charging is done at home. So it seems to me that the charging network is an issue only for non EV owners; the irony of it.

 

Finally, the belief of the anti’s that EV crowd is saving the planet. This is a common fallacy among non EV owners. The fact is that EVs are better for health in cities and other built up areas. No one can honestly say they love seeing that diesel truck ahead of them belching out stinking and toxic diesel fumes as it accelerates away from the lights. Coupled with the annoying din that it makes, I just wish the authorities would do more to crack down on these idiots.

 

Therr are pros and cons of owning an EV vs ICE. Most EV owners have previously owned ICE vehicles and can therefore have an objective and impartial view. Most current ICE owners have not owned an EV or driven one so they really don’t have a clue as to the improvements an EV can bring. Smooth, quiet and relaxing journeys that cost less. It’s like refusing a business class seat at the same price as cattle class and then criticising those that are sitting in business class. That sounds very much like a fanatical cult following to me.

[Gweiloman]

15 hours ago, transam said:

EV's in LOS is sketchy regarding easy charging on the move, fact, that is why I would not be interested here at the present time.

 

You seem to indicate that (lack of) charging stations is one of the main reasons you are not interested in getting an EV at the moment. Tell us, honestly, why sort of mileage do you incur annually and some approximation of the breakdown. Is it 90:10 long journeys vs short journeys? Or 50:50? Or 20:80? I average 500 km per week. Even if there is a CS next door to me, I won’t need to charge there as I can just plug in at the comfort of my own home.

 

15 hours ago, transam said:

 

Even the UK has charging probs with the increase in EV's, so LOS hasn't a chance if EV sales rise..

 

Even the UK you say. Is it fair to compare the charging network in Thailand to that of a third world country? Bear in mind also the different (not sure if this is the right word to use) demographics of vehicle owners between the 2 countries. In the UK, a lot of vehicle owners don’t have dedicated off street parking. In Thailand, I would wager that the majority of vehicle owners live in landed properties with a driveway or porch. Less need for public CS.

 

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

In Thailand, I would wager that the majority of vehicle owners live in landed properties with a driveway or porch. Less need for public CS.

Along with cost of charging, at home or CS substantially cheaper than petrol, in TH.  Apparently not so in the UK.

 

And no penalty, added tariff, if applicable, for charging EV at home.  As someone posted that they were forced to add a 2nd meter at 2X  the house rate to charge at home.  Not sure I even believe that, as sounds OTT.   Also not sure if that was UK or not.

 

Comparing other countries to TH, whether EV cost, charging or CS, even cost of solar, and applying to discussion here is silly.

 

USA for example, ICEV are cheaper, across the board, and EVs seem to be more expensive.   Electric (Philly metro) is about the same as here/TH, but more in the heavily taxed state, and different providers.   Solar is ridiculously expensive, even with incentives, and our system would cost 3X in the Philly metro area.

[ExpatOilWorker]

45 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

 

I find it strange that more often than not, it’s the anti-EV brigade that accuses pro-EV’ers of belonging to a religious cult when in my personal observation, it’s the anti’s that are more fanatical and close minded about their petrol and oh so filthy diesel engines.

 

As an EV owner, I’m fully aware of the shortcomings of EVs. My greatest concern is that of a thermal runaway; although rare, the risk is there and the result would be catastrophic, to say the least. I hope some brainiac could come up with some sort of fireproof car cover that In the event of a fire, it could be contained under the car cover. I’m well aware the temperatures can reach well above that of normal fires which is why it needs someone educated and smart enough to invent this, which basically rules out 99.9% of the AN crowd.

 

The anti’s also inevitably point out the range issue and running out of juice during a journey. In the first instance, if you are too dense and/or idiotic to know the SOC of your vehicle, are you even fit to be piloting a vehicle on public streets? As an ICEV owner, you will need to be on top of simple regular issues like engine oil, tyre pressure, amount of fuel and so on. Every EV owner should know their SOC at any point in time. We know however that there are unfortunately some idiots out there which is why BYD offers 2 free towing sessions in case one runs out of battery charge on the road. Not sure if it’s twice a year or twice in a lifetime (free towing).

 

Another issue brought up is the charging network. For the majority of EV owners, more than 90% of their charging is done at home. So it seems to me that the charging network is an issue only for non EV owners; the irony of it.

 

Finally, the belief of the anti’s that EV crowd is saving the planet. This is a common fallacy among non EV owners. The fact is that EVs are better for health in cities and other built up areas. No one can honestly say they love seeing that diesel truck ahead of them belching out stinking and toxic diesel fumes as it accelerates away from the lights. Coupled with the annoying din that it makes, I just wish the authorities would do more to crack down on these idiots.

 

Therr are pros and cons of owning an EV vs ICE. Most EV owners have previously owned ICE vehicles and can therefore have an objective and impartial view. Most current ICE owners have not owned an EV or driven one so they really don’t have a clue as to the improvements an EV can bring. Smooth, quiet and relaxing journeys that cost less. It’s like refusing a business class seat at the same price as cattle class and then criticising those that are sitting in business class. That sounds very much like a fanatical cult following to me.

Very good and reasonable comment. I will be the first to admit that EVs look amazing when you see the new Tesla model S accelerate to 328 km/h, wow!

EVs are new technology and it is natural to expect some pushback from a generation that have watched 20 seasons of Top Gear.

As often pointed out, EVs are not for everyone, long distance travelers, if u haul heavy loads or live in condo where charging is complicated. 

The fact that governments are pushing EVs with tax rebates, lower road tax and other subsidies is also a sore point.

EVs are often not as perfect as  glittering sales brochures wants us to believe. MG is showing milage in the wrong unit, BYD have software glitches after an upgrade,  etc.

In 2020 China exported fewer cars than Thailand in 2023 China will overtake Japan as the worlds biggest car exporter.

I have bought plenty of junk from China, only the future will tell if Chinese cars are any different.

Hopefully MG/BYD owners will share if the honeymoon period last over the next 3-5 years. 

 

[JBChiangRai]

21 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

... it is natural to expect some pushback from a generation that have watched 20 seasons of Top Gear.

 

MG is showing milage in the wrong unit, BYD have software glitches after an upgrade,  etc.

 

In 2020 China exported fewer cars than Thailand in 2023 China will overtake Japan as the worlds biggest car exporter.

I have bought plenty of junk from China, only the future will tell if Chinese cars are any different.

Hopefully MG/BYD owners will share if the honeymoon period last over the next 3-5 years. 

 

I have watched most of the Top Gear / Grand Tour episodes, I consider myself a car nut and have owned lots of exotic cars.  That is one of the reasons I bought an EV.  The speed of a supercar but the refinement of a Rolls Royce and unparalleled value for money.

 

What is the problem with MG displaying wrong mileages?

 

China is making inroads into European and Asian markets, unless legislated against, it's going to happen in America too.  I read somewhere that German manufacturers are claiming they can't compete on both price & quality.

 

IMHO, the Chinese car manufacturers have migrated from low cost, low quality to low cost, high quality.  Time will tell.  Our 2 MG EV's are the first new cars I have ever had not needing warranty work (yet).

[JBChiangRai]

It looks like the EU Car Manufacturers are having some success lobbying the EU to save their industries.  Consumers may have to pay more for their Chinese EV's.

 

Brussels launches fightback against cheap Chinese electric cars flooding Europe (msn.com)

[ExpatOilWorker]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

It looks like the EU Car Manufacturers are having some success lobbying the EU to save their industries.  Consumers may have to pay more for their Chinese EV's.

 

Brussels launches fightback against cheap Chinese electric cars flooding Europe (msn.com)

The challenge for EU is not so much all the new name Chinese brands arriving in Europe, the real danger is if European manufacturers start producing EVs for the Europen market in China ????????.  Then it is game over for the Europen car industry and million of jobs are lost