ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[vinny41]

Norway does an excellent job of producing stats 

In 2023 Total number of private cars including  ambulances, combined vehicles and motor homes was 2,886 795

ICE vehicles total was 1,990,605 and combined BEV and PHEV was 896,190 giving BEV and PHEV market share of 45% or all private cars including  ambulances, combined vehicles and motor homes registered in 2023

https://www.ssb.no/en/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/statistikk/bilparken

[Gweiloman]

15 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Without the govt incentives they would not have chosen ev's to this  degree, if you  have a  small  population in such a large land area its easier to produce the amount of electricity to  supply them especially when you have tons of hydro (which I mentioned due to its location re  read it) therefore its not a level playing field in any shape or  form its been massively subsidised  all of these subisidies will evaporate . Just as UK ev's  buyers are  now finding out with car tax being introduced for ev's. Norway is the exception to the rule for those  reasons and not typical of the ev market worldwide.  Norways electricity is very cheap if it was at a more "normal" price do you think they would  still buy them . Norway is the exception to the rule but held up as a poster boy  and as "the norm" it isnt its an outlier. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/

• No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25% VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over
• No annual road tax (1996-2021). Reduced tax from 2021. Full tax from 2022.
• No charges on toll roads (1997- 2017).
• No charges on ferries (2009- 2017).
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles (2018)
• Maximum 50% of the total amount on toll roads (2018-2022). From 2023 70%
• Free municipal parking (1999- 2017)
• Access to bus lanes (2005-). New rules allow local authorities to limit the access to only include EVs that carry one or more passengers (2016-)
• 25% reduced company car tax (2000-2008). 50% reduced company car tax (2009-2017). Company car tax reduction reduced to 40% (2018-2021) and 20 percent from 2022.
• Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015-)
• The Norwegian Parliament decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen) (2017).
• «Charging right» for people living in apartment buildings was established (2017-)
• Public procurement: From 2022 cars needs to be ZEV. From 2025 the same applies to city buses

There is no doubt that govt subsidies and incentives make EVs more appealing but neither you nor I can know for sure how much influence this has on the final purchase decision. Would I still have bought my EV here in Thailand if there wasn’t the 150,000k baht incentive? Probably.

 

I think your focus on hydro power etc is  bit over exaggerated. In many countries around the world, electricity prices are much cheaper than petrol prices. Here in Thailand for sure. Even in the UK. I would imagine that gas prices in the US must be very low, yet Teslas also sell very well there. Not so EVs from Ford and GM but that’s because they are rubbish.

[Gweiloman]

7 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Norway does an excellent job of producing stats 

In 2023 Total number of private cars including  ambulances, combined vehicles and motor homes was 2,886 795

ICE vehicles total was 1,990,605 and combined BEV and PHEV was 896,190 giving BEV and PHEV market share of 45% or all private cars including  ambulances, combined vehicles and motor homes registered in 2023

https://www.ssb.no/en/transport-og-reiseliv/landtransport/statistikk/bilparken

All your post serves to prove is nothing.

 

Say that effective from today, the only phone available for sale in Thailand is “Vinnies”. 100% of all phones sales are Vinnies. However, there are 60 million non Vinnies phones around. It will still take time for Vinnies phones to first be 10% of all phones in the market, followed by 20%. 30% and so on.

[vinny41]

44 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

All your post serves to prove is nothing.

 

Say that effective from today, the only phone available for sale in Thailand is “Vinnies”. 100% of all phones sales are Vinnies. However, there are 60 million non Vinnies phones around. It will still take time for Vinnies phones to first be 10% of all phones in the market, followed by 20%. 30% and so on.

My Post shows that Norway still has a long away to go before every single private vehicle registered is an BEV or PHEV

[Pib]

On 10/6/2024 at 9:53 AM, Pib said:

When it comes to the Toyota solid state battery,  a new revolutionary combustion engine, or some other Toyota pie-in-the sky propaganda "which is just around the corner" it's all meant to keep current Toyota customers hanging on a little longer for that revolutionary Toyota  innovation/vehicle that always seems to be just around the corner...can now see it on the horizon...just hold on a little longer....etc.   

 

Toyota (and Honda) are really behind the EV vehicle curve and I think have made the business decision to put most of their plans it transitioning from "ICEV to Hybrid and then to EV".....they are simply not making the ICEV to EV jump....they are first taking an interim jump to Hybrid.  They see that as the best business decision and maybe it is.    

 

While I think Toyota makes excellent ICEVs (I still own a 2009 Fortuner I bought new but now my primary vehicle is a 2023 BYD EV)  Toyota is really dragging their feet in the transition to EVs and using tactics like advertising "revolutionary" propaganda to help mask their foot dragging (i.e., business decision).    But hey, it's their business...and it could very well be the best long term business decision to concentrate on selling Hybrids for now while they slowly catch-up in EV technology.  

 

Good ol' Toyota....below 4 Oct 2024 news article talks how Toyota will delay EV production in North America from 2025 to 2026.  A master of EV delay....new technology always just around a the corner....on the horizon.  But just hang in there a little longer Toyota customers who want a Toyota EV....in the meantime I'm sure Toyota recommends you buy a Toyota Hybrid while you wait for a Toyota EVs.  The article focuses on how "trade protectionism" in some countries/regions like the US and EU is impacting EV sales and prices.

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Electric-vehicles/Toyota-s-EV-delay-reveals-price-of-protectionism-against-China?utm_source=paid.outbrain.com&utm_medium=content retargeting&utm_campaign=IC_broad_CORE&utm_content=RSSfeed&dicbo=v4-T8CWB0Z-1131228701-1

 

[KhunLA]

Did the govt incentive motivate me to buy a BEV ... HELL YEA

 

฿240K, although if it was only 100k or 150k, I might have passed on upgrading, as really like our present ICEV, as only  having 1.5 yrs, and same make/model as the BEV.    For me, spending more than ฿1M for transport is ding dong, as not really a car person, especially in retirement.   Actually, ฿949k was a stretch to justify, as just spending ฿695k, also a silly price, in my mind, to get from point A to B.  Sadly, the going price for anything in TH, that has any acceptable level of comfort.

 

The estimated 6 months from order to deliver, also gave me time to research and think about it, as like most, I was pretty ignorant about BEVs.   OK, not as much as most, but fine details/info, I lacked.  Even considered canceling the last month before receiving.

 

The first day, and during first O&A, questioned myself, hmm, was this a good idea.   Once use to everything, and driving ... Oh Hell Yea ... driving is fun again.  Now, as stated maybe 1 or 100 times, would never own a ICEV again.

 

Without the govt incentive, would probably have bought the same anyway, since the little price war going, and ฿599k would have been impossible to pass up.  The performance alone is worth the extra money, and of course, being a spiteful bastard, not support big oil ... that's priceless.

 

Govt incentive for BEV, is no different than the Excise Tax rebate, for ICEVs, back around 2011/12, which motivated us to upgrade at the time offered.   A bit of a coincidence, as would have been due for a trade up anyway within the next year or 2.   But done as soon as the rebate as offered.

 

Incentive here, rebate there, what's the difference.  Both version of products and energy to fuel them are all subsidized anyway.  Which means lower prices.   We pay for the subsidies anyway via taxes.   Just every now and then, they give a few baht back to us.

 

Gives us the warm & fuzzy feeling after being screwed for decades prior.   Timing and ability to take advantage of getting some of our money back is nice though.

 

Sort of like the 3 covid economic stimulus/assistance checks us Yanks got ... I wonder where the got the money for those 

Edited 1 hour ago by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

35 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

My Post shows that Norway still has a long away to go before every single private vehicle registered is an BEV or PHEV

It would help if you posted a balanced viewpoint Vinny.

 

Many of your posts lead the reader to an improper conclusion.

 

On a positive note, I am currently in Hong Kong, almost every other car is a Tesla.  BYD are here but not popular, my HK friend told me that HK people don’t like China/Chinese products.

 

I have also seen 3 of Toyota’s bZ4x, although it could be the same car on 3 different days.

 

I was in Phu Quoc last week, the only EV’s I saw were horrible VinFast.

[vinny41]

16 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Most of the incentives you list have finished sometime ago, that doesn’t explain the 96.4% EV market share in September this year.

 

You mentioned the UK, in August the UK exceeded it’s target for the year of 22%, the UK is storming ahead with EV’s.

 

China, more than half of vehicles sold are EV’s.

 

Thailand approx 15% of new passenger vehicles are EV’s, new figures imminent.

 

People like EV’s, they prefer the superior driving experience.  That the driving experience is superior cannot be argued.

 

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

It would help if you posted a balanced viewpoint Vinny.

 

Many of your posts lead the reader to an improper conclusion.

 

On a positive note, I am currently in Hong Kong, almost every other car is a Tesla.  BYD are here but not popular, my HK friend told me that HK people don’t like China/Chinese products.

 

I have also seen 3 of Toyota’s bZ4x, although it could be the same car on 3 different days.

 

I was in Phu Quoc last week, the only EV’s I saw were horrible VinFast.

I must admit your unbalanced view of EV sales in the UK did bring a chuckle to my face

according to you UK will hit the 22% target  where the SMMT states that is likely the industry will miss that target for both new car sales (22%) and Van sales(10%)

UK SMMT has recently written a letter to Rachel Reeves MP Chancellor of the Exchequer
"So far this year, one in six new car buyers has chosen a ZEV.1 Volumes are up but market share is barely moving. The van transition is even more challenged – with ZEVs accounting for just one in 20 registrations.2 The ZEV mandate demands 22% of every brand’s new car sales and 10% of new van sales be zero emission in 2024. As an industry we will likely miss those targets and a significant number of brands face the prospect of either buying credits from another company or paying swingeing compliance payments. "
1 BEV share of YTD new car market 17.8% - prelim figures 2 BEV share of YTD new LCV market to 3.5T 4.8% - prelim figures

https://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/UK-Auto-Open-letter-to-the-Chancellor-ZEV-incentives-call.pdf

[JBChiangRai]

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

 

I must admit your unbalanced view of EV sales in the UK did bring a chuckle to my face

according to you UK will hit the 22% target  where the SMMT states that is likely the industry will miss that target for both new car sales (22%) and Van sales(10%)

I never said the UK will hit the 22% target (I’m assuming you mean for the year?).

 

I said the UK recently exceeded the 22% target.  That happened in August, I think I posted that in full when the figures were released by the society of motor manufacturers and traders.

 

I don’t expect the UK to hit that for the year. 

[Gweiloman]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

My Post shows that Norway still has a long away to go before every single private vehicle registered is an BEV or PHEV

That's obvious. No one contests that. In fact, no one even brings this up, other than your good self.