ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[transam]

4 hours ago, driver52 said:

there's a clue in the thread title, it says 'debate' 

christ and you started it, debate much? 

I'll leave you with some recent news from Europe, October 14

PARIS (AP) — Four people have died in a car crash in France after their Tesla vehicle reportedly hit a road sign and caught fire, police said Monday.

A local police spokesman, Lt. Eric Hoarau, said the exact circumstances of the crash Saturday night near the city of Niort were still to be determined and an investigation was underway.

“Everything suggests (the vehicle) came off the road,” Hoarau said, citing marks on the ground and a severed road sign.

There were no witnesses, he said, making the investigation complicated.

The driver and three passengers were burnt beyond recognition, he said.

Tesla did not immediately reply to a request for comment.

You will learn very quickly that if you ask a question or a point of view, the EV owners here will call you a troll, their school boy stuff....🥴

 

[josephbloggs]

23 minutes ago, transam said:

You will learn very quickly that if you ask a question or a point of view, the EV owners here will call you a troll, their school boy stuff....🥴

 

He's back!

You will learn very quickly that if you post unsubstantiated nonsense about EVs then expect to be called out by EV owners hwo, you know, actually have experience of owning EVs.

What's wrong with that?

EV owners on here admit the negatives where they exist, but when MAGAs turn up with lies then they get called out. That's a good thing.

Looking forward to your childish micro, no content, responses and emojis again, and you ignoring any direct questions or challenges. Oh joy. Just when things were looking up for the forum....

Edited November 1 by josephbloggs

[JBChiangRai]

13 hours ago, transam said:

You will learn very quickly that if you ask a question or a point of view, the EV owners here will call you a troll, their school boy stuff....🥴

 

 

He's right, we should all drive a Celery 

[Gweiloman]

19 hours ago, driver52 said:

it's hilarious this website, it appears lots are 'confused' by English and statistics....

and if you try and have a 'conversation' you get branded a troll or someone deletes your posts

hmmmm, nothing to be gained here anymore 

What’s hilarious is that as a non-native English speaker, I understand English and statistics better than you. The UK fire department may have attended to more EV fires in 2023 than in 2022 but that is a meaningless statement in itself without comparing the actual number of EVs in these 2 years. I’m willing to bet that there were zero car fires in 1885, as there were no cars on the roads then.

 

There’s a lot to be gained here, if you can debate intelligently. All points of views are accepted if there is some basis of fact. Unfortunately, there are some posters who are totally ignorant of the facts and for some unknown reasons, hates EVs and prefers to drive, as @JBChiangRai said, vegetable cars. It just goes to show how little they know about driving a vehicle.

[transam]

15 hours ago, josephbloggs said:

He's back!

You will learn very quickly that if you post unsubstantiated nonsense about EVs then expect to be called out by EV owners hwo, you know, actually have experience of owning EVs.

What's wrong with that?

EV owners on here admit the negatives where they exist, but when MAGAs turn up with lies then they get called out. That's a good thing.

Looking forward to your childish micro, no content, responses and emojis again, and you ignoring any direct questions or challenges. Oh joy. Just when things were looking up for the forum....

No, I am not back on your teams EV thread, just pointing out a fact to a poster......😉

[transam]

30 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

What’s hilarious is that as a non-native English speaker, I understand English and statistics better than you. The UK fire department may have attended to more EV fires in 2023 than in 2022 but that is a meaningless statement in itself without comparing the actual number of EVs in these 2 years. I’m willing to bet that there were zero car fires in 1885, as there were no cars on the roads then.

 

There’s a lot to be gained here, if you can debate intelligently. All points of views are accepted if there is some basis of fact. Unfortunately, there are some posters who are totally ignorant of the facts and for some unknown reasons, hates EVs and prefers to drive, as @JBChiangRai said, vegetable cars. It just goes to show how little they know about driving a vehicle.

I am glad you used the word "ignorant", it reminds me of EV owners who have a one-way street mentality, you boing one...........But never mind, eh.........

[transam]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

He's right, we should all drive a Celery 

A celery, hmmm, nobody wants you to drive a vegetable, even if you are a vegetable, chap............🤭

[KhunLA]

@Srikcir this may interest, and should open some eyes.

I always spec shop before looking at anything to buy.

 

   

 

MG4 out performs & more features in every other aspect (safety & comfort)

source

Edited November 2 by KhunLA

[KhunLA]

50 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

@Srikcir this may interest, and should open some eyes.

I always spec shop before looking at anything to buy.

 

   

 

MG4 out performs & more features in every other aspect (safety & comfort)

source

Oops, just realized I compared the wrong Varis, although, the differences are minimal.

Varis Aliv comparison 

Edited November 2 by KhunLA

[Gweiloman]

21 hours ago, transam said:

No, I am not back on your teams EV thread, just pointing out a fact to a poster......😉

 

21 hours ago, transam said:

I am glad you used the word "ignorant", it reminds me of EV owners who have a one-way street mentality, you boing one...........But never mind, eh.........

Thanks for the laugh. Brightened up what was otherwise a rather overcast morning.

[transam]

41 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

 

Thanks for the laugh. Brightened up what was otherwise a rather overcast morning.

My pleasure, it's more than your EV chums do...........

[vinny41]

China’s Hozon Auto Confirms Layoffs Amid Efforts to Arrest Sales Plunge

Neta has been struggling in China’s fiercely competitive EV market, with total sales falling by 16 percent last year to 120,000 units. There was a further 12.1 percent drop in the first nine months of this year to 86,000. The company has faced reports of delayed salaries and bonuses in February and again in September this year. 

https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/chinas-hozon-auto-confirms-layoffs-amid-efforts-to-arrest-sales-plunge

[HighPriority]

Vinny, are you also going to post the poor sales stats for every ice manufacturer ?

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

Vinny, are you also going to post the poor sales stats for every ice manufacturer ?

I haven't seen any in the news maybe you should post if your aware of any

[KhunLA]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I haven't seen any in the news maybe you should post if your aware of any

I think we can all agree 'average' auto sales worldwide is down.  EV sales worldwide is up.  Doesn't take statistical mathematician to figure out which, ICEV or EV sales are on which of the down / up graphs.

 

In Thailand, well, there's a few news-blips, if looking ... 

 

 

Think it's safe to say, many 'legacy auto makers' may not be around in the future, if they can't keep up ... 

 

 

Edited November 4 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

28 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

I think we can all agree 'average' auto sales worldwide is down.  EV sales worldwide is up.  Doesn't take statistical mathematician to figure out which, ICEV or EV sales are on which of the down / up graphs.

 

In Thailand, well, there's a few news-blips, if looking ... 

 

 

Think it's safe to say, many 'legacy auto makers' may not be around in the future, if they can't keep up ... 

 

 

 

Excellent video, puts it all in perspective.

[vinny41]

When EV startups shut down, will their cars still work?

As Chinese EV makers close, drivers of “smartphones on wheels” say software updates and maintenance are in jeopardy.

Richard Qian didn’t know what to expect when he heard that WM Motor, a Shanghai-based EV maker popular for its low prices, filed for bankruptcy in October 2023. He tried to drive his compact EX5 SUV as he normally would, but discovered that he could no longer log into WM Motor’s smartphone app, which remotely controlled the car lock and air conditioner. He also couldn’t see his car’s mileage and charging status on the dashboard. 

 In June, after U.S. carmaker Fisker went bankrupt, drivers found themselves unable to lock their EVs or turn on air conditioning, making the cars unbearable to drive in the summer. 

https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

When EV startups shut down, will their cars still work?

As Chinese EV makers close, drivers of “smartphones on wheels” say software updates and maintenance are in jeopardy.

Richard Qian didn’t know what to expect when he heard that WM Motor, a Shanghai-based EV maker popular for its low prices, filed for bankruptcy in October 2023. He tried to drive his compact EX5 SUV as he normally would, but discovered that he could no longer log into WM Motor’s smartphone app, which remotely controlled the car lock and air conditioner. He also couldn’t see his car’s mileage and charging status on the dashboard. 

 In June, after U.S. carmaker Fisker went bankrupt, drivers found themselves unable to lock their EVs or turn on air conditioning, making the cars unbearable to drive in the summer. 

https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/

 

That is likely to be an issue.  If using a smartphone is mandatory, ie communicating with the manufacturers server, then that part of the functionality is likely to fail.

 

BUT, this is not an EV issue, it applies equally to modern ICE vehicles too.  My friend wouldn't be able to do the same things on his ICE Mercedes too.

[vinny41]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

That is likely to be an issue.  If using a smartphone is mandatory, ie communicating with the manufacturers server, then that part of the functionality is likely to fail.

 

BUT, this is not an EV issue, it applies equally to modern ICE vehicles too.  My friend wouldn't be able to do the same things on his ICE Mercedes too.

Ota updates apply to both EV and Ice vehicles  although the issue  when OTA updates are no longer available affects EV's more than ICE vehicles

OTA updates can be divided into 2 different types of update

SOTA updates

FOTA updates ( Firmware over-the-air (FOTA) updates )

Over-the-air updates: How does each EV automaker compare?

https://electrek.co/2022/06/07/over-the-air-updates-how-does-each-ev-automaker-compare/

Fisker Ocean EVs Avoid Becoming Bricks With $2.5M Software Deal

A company that acquired Fisker's inventory found that it could not port over the software from Fisker's servers. It solved that with another $2.5 million payout.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/fisker-ocean-evs-avoid-becoming-bricks-with-25m-software-deal

Software-defined vehicles (SDVs) are a key part of the automotive industry's transformation, and Chinese manufacturers are at the forefront of this change: 

Adoption

Chinese manufacturers have adopted SDV architecture for new electric vehicles (EVs). 

Digital features

 

Some limitations of SDVs include:

Software complexity

Software development costs

Dependence on software updates

Unauthorized access

Data breaches

Potential control of the vehicle 

[KhunLA]

Our MG ZS has a pending update, almost from when we bought it.  To allow Google & Apple Play, which we haven't bothered with updating.  Can't think of anything I'd use it for, except Gmaps, which I prefer on my phone anyway.  Rarely need, but when I do, I want to hold it in front of me, so not to take my eyes off the road, as would be needed to look at the ZS's screen.

 

Same reason I don't bother with the ZS's navigation app, and we haven't even authorized or signed into that yet.   I don't fix what isn't broken.  

Edited November 4 by KhunLA

[Pib]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Ota updates apply to both EV and Ice vehicles  although the issue  when OTA updates are no longer available affects EV's more than ICE vehicles

OTA updates can be divided into 2 different types of update

SOTA updates

FOTA updates ( Firmware over-the-air (FOTA) updates )

Over-the-air updates: How does each EV automaker compare?

https://electrek.co/2022/06/07/over-the-air-updates-how-does-each-ev-automaker-compare/

Fisker Ocean EVs Avoid Becoming Bricks With $2.5M Software Deal

A company that acquired Fisker's inventory found that it could not port over the software from Fisker's servers. It solved that with another $2.5 million payout.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/fisker-ocean-evs-avoid-becoming-bricks-with-25m-software-deal

Software-defined vehicles (SDVs) are a key part of the automotive industry's transformation, and Chinese manufacturers are at the forefront of this change: 

Adoption

Chinese manufacturers have adopted SDV architecture for new electric vehicles (EVs). 

Digital features

 

Some limitations of SDVs include:

Software complexity

Software development costs

Dependence on software updates

Unauthorized access

Data breaches

Potential control of the vehicle 

 

Thanks....some interesting stuff in the first weblink you provided....the electrek.co link.   I pasted some partial quotes below regarding BYD, Tesla, Honda and good ol' Toyota.  Also a link at the very bottom talking "How Toyota sneakily spreads anti-EV propaganda in Japan"

 

 

Quote

 

BYD

BYD is an established Chinese manufacturer of battery technologies and various electric machines. The automaker itself has previously admitted that while it’s one of the industry leaders in Chinese hardware, it has room for growth in regard to software. Especially compared to the likes of Tesla.

In 2018, BYD unveiled its DiLink system, offering an intelligent eco-system inside and out of each BYD EV. By utilizing DiLink, BYD became the first Chinese automaker to offer OTA upgrades.

In February of 2021, BYD announced a partnership with Aurora Mobile Limited to collaborate toward digital upgrades of BYDs EVs. As of June 2021, BYD enabled about fifteen OTA updates across multiple models to improve things like intelligent connectivity, driving assistance system and power.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Tesla

Tesla remains the “OG” in OTA. The American automaker first utilized over-the-air software capabilities back in 2012 with the launch of its Model S sedan. Perhaps you’ve heard of it? With the debut of its Model 3, Tesla set the new standard for FOTA capabilities as well.

Currently, Tesla’s OTA updates extend to its entire fleet and are released consistently. Mostly for minor bug fixes, but a few times a year, Tesla owners can look forward to extensive OTA updates.

These updates cover everything from extended range, Sentry Mode, and even Tesla’s FSD beta.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Honda

Honda currently offers limited OTA capabilities for a select number of its vehicles. Furthermore, all software updates pertain solely to infotainment systems like navigation and CarPlay function. All through a system called HondaLink.

As far as we can tell, the Japanese manufacturer has not offered any updates to its future plans of expanding OTA updates past infotainment software. Its progress toward BEV manufacturing has been laggard at best.

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Toyota

Like several of the other legacy automakers headquartered in Asia (particularly Japan), Toyota has previously offered lightweight OTA capabilities amongst a very select list of vehicles. Unlike the others, however, it looks to flip the script and veer toward advanced software capabilities.

In 2021, Toyota announced a new operating system called “Arene,” allowing new features to be installed in a car’s existing hardware over the air. Furthermore, Arene will provide a platform for developers to create new software.

Many legacy automakers are still 3-4 years away from OTA capabilities to match Tesla, including Toyota. That said, the automaker believes Arene can eventually become a licensable platform that can compete with Tesla. That is, if Toyota doesn’t ruin the whole EV party for everyone first.

 

 

 

 

How Toyota sneakily spreads anti-EV propaganda in Japan

https://electrek.co/2021/11/11/how-toyota-sneakily-spreads-anti-ev-propaganda-in-japan/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HighPriority]

9 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I haven't seen any in the news maybe you should post if your aware of any

I asked because imho you do yourself a disservice by appearing to ignore negative ice news and focusing only on bad ev press.

If ev get appropriate bad press, so be it.

 

As for the articles above concerning OTA updates etc, it’s one thing if a company goes broke and doesnt provide “ongoing improvements” to a vehicles operating system, after all we have lived our entire lives in this manner.

But proprietary systems that render a vehicle unusable in the case of corporate collapse is totally wrong and if the industry is unable to get itself organised then governments need to step in and protect consumers.

 

[vinny41]

1 hour ago, HighPriority said:

I asked because imho you do yourself a disservice by appearing to ignore negative ice news and focusing only on bad ev press.

If ev get appropriate bad press, so be it.

 

As for the articles above concerning OTA updates etc, it’s one thing if a company goes broke and doesnt provide “ongoing improvements” to a vehicles operating system, after all we have lived our entire lives in this manner.

But proprietary systems that render a vehicle unusable in the case of corporate collapse is totally wrong and if the industry is unable to get itself organised then governments need to step in and protect consumers.

 

If the article had just been about poor sales I wouldn't have posted but when a company

 delayed salaries to their staff twice in the same year that indicates a more serious problem than just poor sales

 

I do agree with you regarding the  proprietary systems that render a vehicle unusable in the Fisker case they were handled by the Bankruptcy Court

Fisker Bankruptcy Plan Approved: Warranty Repairs & OTA Updates Continue Operation of Vehicles

https://www.autoconnectedcar.com/2024/10/fisker-bankruptcy-plan-approved-warranty-repairs-ota-updates-continue-operation-of-vehicle/

I must admit I find it werid that the Fisker software could not be ported over to another server

Edited November 4 by vinny41
add

[Pib]

9 hours ago, vinny41 said:

 

 In June, after U.S. carmaker Fisker went bankrupt, drivers found themselves unable to lock their EVs or turn on air conditioning, making the cars unbearable to drive in the summer. 

https://restofworld.org/2024/ev-company-shutdowns-china/

 

Above relates to using the Fisker smartphone app to turn off and on the A/C or lock/unlock the car using the app like you want to do such from a distance like from inside your residence, etc.     But the app is "not" needed to turn on/off the A/C or lock/unlock the car as long as you physically go to the car...use the key FOB to lock/unlock doors, start the car, start the A/C, etc.  Or just turn on/off the A/C while setting in the car.   

 

The BYD app works the same way.   I didn't even use the app for the first two months I had my Atto EV....then I decided to install/start using it.  It's  nice feature to check if the doors/windows are locked/closed, check tire pressure, check traction battery charge level, odometer reading, turn on the A/C to let the car cool down for a few minutes before you go to the car, and do a couple other things.  But the app is "not" needed to drive the car, operate the A/C, etc.; it's only a nice convenience.     

 

And for the BYD app you can still use it to control/monitor certain functions on the car even when you turn off Cellular Data and/or Wifi connection as the the app uses the call/messaging capability of the mobile network versus mobile data/Wifi.  If a person wants to go dark from BYD servers or anybody monitoring/controlling the EV from the cloud they need to remove the EV's SIM which in the Atto is on the left side of the center console.  The EV will still run just fine without the SIM,,,,it's just the BYD servers can't monitor/talk to the car anymore, you can't connect with BYD app, etc.  

[Pib]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

I must admit I find it werid that the Fisker software could not be ported over to another server

 

I expect it was a "legal" issue regarding vehicle information server ownership versus a technical issue. 

 

And as usual money took care of that legal issue and/or reaching a new agreement regarding server information ownership. 

 

https://insideevs.com/news/736798/fisker-ocean-data-impossible-port/

[KhunLA]

 

[JBChiangRai]

EV sales continue to lead the industry in the UK.

 

Data from New AutoMotive found that October was the third straight month where electric cars had more than 20 per cent of the market share as petrol sales continue to fall.

 

In the first 10 months of the year, petrol car sales have dropped 14 per cent compared to the same period last year, while EVs took a market share of 20.8 per cent in October.

It comes as separate data from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) found that while the new car market fell by six per cent, electric vehicles provided some relief to the automotive industry.

 

Electric car targets praised for allowing drivers to switch as diesel sales 'quickly ran out of steam'

[JBChiangRai]

Toyota seems to be finally affected by market changes.

 

Japan's biggest car maker, Toyota, saw profits for the July-September period sliding to less than half of what they were in the same period last year.

The maker of the Camry sedan and Lexus luxury models revealed that a production stoppage that followed a certification scandal and model recalls had dented sales.

 

Toyota apologised and suspended production on a number of models after acknowledging widespread fraudulent testing, including the use of inadequate or outdated data in crash tests, as well as incorrect testing of airbag inflation.

 

Scandal-hit car maker Toyota sees profits take a tumble

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

More UK News as sales of used cars accelerate, EV's up massively, Hybrids up too, Petrol up marginally while diesel sales decline.

 

Purchases of pure electric used cars have reached record levels, new figures show.

Some 53,423 of the cars changed hands between July and September, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) said.

That is a surge of 57.0% compared with the same period last year, as the market share held by pure electrics rose from 1.8% to 2.7%.

 

Sales of used hybrids and plug-in hybrids also rose, up 35.8% and 29.0% respectively.

Meanwhile, 1.12 million petrol cars (up 5.7%) and 680,000 diesel cars (down 3.9%) found new owners.

 

Sales of used electric cars reach record high

[KhunLA]

7 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

Toyota seems to be finally affected by market changes.

 

Japan's biggest car maker, Toyota, saw profits for the July-September period sliding to less than half of what they were in the same period last year.

The maker of the Camry sedan and Lexus luxury models revealed that a production stoppage that followed a certification scandal and model recalls had dented sales.

 

Toyota apologised and suspended production on a number of models after acknowledging widespread fraudulent testing, including the use of inadequate or outdated data in crash tests, as well as incorrect testing of airbag inflation.

 

Scandal-hit car maker Toyota sees profits take a tumble

 

 

That could go the way of VW, after their emissions debacle, huge recall, and guessing, lack of customer trust for repeat or new customers.

 

Guessing that is huge part of the reason why they, VW, have fallen so far, from top dog, to closing multiple factories.

Edited November 7 by KhunLA