ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, thailand49 said:

You do the data, EV are a myth they pollute just making them especially the material to make batteries. Charging is just one of many not too.

So you're a subsistence farmer, don't drive, own a horse (abuse), or use the grid, and have a hand pump well ... 👍

 

Are you Amish 

 

Scratch that, you on the internet ... hmm

 

Hypocrisy - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform.

[Captain Flack]

Some flame posts have been removed. Discuss the topic not other posters.

 

@thailand49if you can’t post without name calling personal attacks, I suggest find a different topic or accept further action.

[Pib]

As many of you know Motor Expo 2024 is underway 28 Nov -10 Dec 2024...a 13 day event.   Motor Expo 2023 occurred  last year 29 Nov - 11 Dec 2024...also for 13 days.   Below are a couple of "bookings" charts where you can compare how this year's 2024 Expo booking numbers after 4 days (i.e, thru 1 Dec) compare to last year's 2023 booking numbers day-by-day.

After 4 of 13 days the 2024 Expo booking numbers stand are 11,280....and for the 2023 Expo after 4 days the bookings stood at 8,444.   So, bookings after day 4 for each year the 2024 bookings are way ahead of 2023 bookings.   

 

HOWEVER, when going to this Motor Expo 2024 webpage to get the latest booking numbers which currently shows thru 3 Dec (i.e., 6 days of bookings) as of date/time of this post the 2024 booking numbers after 6 days stand at 16,272 compared to Motor Expo 2023 booking after 6 days of 16,797.  So, bookings after 6 day for each year the 2024 bookings are now a little behind 2023 bookings.  As you see the 2024 and 2023 charts booking numbers can vary a lot from day-to-day at these Expo events.

 

It will be interesting to see if this year BYD over takes Honda in bookings when the Motor Expo 2024 ends and final booking numbers post.  For last Motor Expo 2023 BYD held on to 2nd place for most of the event days but got barely nosed out at the event finish line by Honda.   Honda ended up in 2nd place with BYD in 3rd by a mere 30 bookings.  Toyota finished 1st.    When looking at 2024 booking numbers after 6 days BYD is once again barely ahead of Honda....Toyota is in 1st place.

 

Since BYD is now selling more models, to include even an HEV model, maybe this is the year BYD becomes the 2nd best selling brand at the Expo.  And of course Toyota will probably maintain 1st place with its ICEV and HEV models. 

 

See charts and weblinks below for detailed info.

 

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/first-4days-motor-expo-2024-bookings/

Motor Expo 2024 Booking Numbers After 4 of 13 days

 

 

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/motor-expo-2023-booking-final/

Motor Expo 2023 Day-by-Day and "Final" Booking Numbers

[Pib]

Vehicle "registrations" for Nov 2024.   Registration means a totally completed sale with vehicle ownership book (e.g., blue book) issued.....a done deal...driving around proudly showing-off your new red tag vehicle.   See webpage below for details to included data for brand models "registered" like how many Toyota Fortuners, BYD Dolphins  Honda Cities, etc., ..a lot more detail at the webpage below

 

https://www.car250.com/th-2024-11-2.html

[Pib]

 

 

Vehicle bookings after 7 of 13 days for Motor Expo 2024 in first chart below.  Unless bookings really pick-up over the remaining 6 days of the Expo then bookings for this year are going to fall far short of last year's Motor Expo 2023 (2nd chart below).   Vehicles sales, ICEV, EV, and HEV continue to be sluggish for 2024....high household debt and tougher financing requirements are having a big impact on total vehicle sales.

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/motor-expo-2024-booking-half/

 

 

Motor Expo 2024 Bookings after 7 of 13 days

 

 

Motor Expo 2023 Final Bookings after 13 of 13 days

 

 

 

 

[4myr]

I've visited the Motor Expo and I was impressed with the quality feel of Chinese EV cars around 1M baht compared to Japanese in that price range e.g. Honda HRV, Mitsu Xpander.

 

I would qualify Geely EX5 as top notch in terms of specs and battery. BYD Atto 3 is a bit outdated already.
JY Air from Juneyao Auto is also not bad in terms of specs [e.g. 135kw dc charging] , however who ever heard of this brand.
Other brands that are worth mentioning: Deepal S07 is a bit above 1M, however uses NMC battery and charges below 100 kw. Aion V has more range than the usual 420km WLTP of extended range cars in Thailand, however fails in quality feel.
Not to mention Neta X that just got rescued from a bankruptcy.

 

But still on the fence to pull the trigger.
It is a buyers market. More competition and supply vs demand means more discounted prices.

In a couple of years batteries get higher densities, more charge cycles and can charge faster for the same price. Compare Geely EX5 Aegis battery in 2024 vs BYD Atto 3 blade battery gen 1 from 2022.

 

A new EV like the Geely EX5 will provide me a more comfortable ride [seats, space, suspension, ADAS/cameras, massage] and will cost me less in maintenance and electricity, however 2 inconveniences remain:

1) more inconvenience to extend long road trips.
An ICE car with a range of 600 km needs refill every 500 km within 15 minutes.
An EV extended range with a WLTP of 420km needs a refill between 20-80% SOC range [ 250 km ] to get the quickest charging time between 20-30 minutes. As charging between 80-100% is much slower. This means more and longer stops. You must plan your journey carefully if going to natural parks eg Khao Kho/Sok due to the absence of fast chargers.

2) more inconvenience with issues and repairs
This depends how long the brand is established in Thailand.

For example Geely EX5 is a new and an import only car. No plans to setup a factory in Thailand.

They launched the car very low profile at the Motor Expo with a small booth space, so I expect them to wait and see before they will invest a lot in training, a spare parts hub and extend the dealer network fast. This means longer wait times for spare parts and well trained mechanics to fix and repair.

 

And don't mention resale value. A recent study in the Netherlands shows that EVs and ICE had the same depreciation loss in % until 2022. Then due to more supply [cheaper cars from China] and the announced stop of tax credits, now an EV loses on average 15% more than an ICE car in terms of resale value. In rural areas there is less demand in low range used EVs. In the Netherlands a used EV dealer is not yet obliged to report the SOH of the car battery. In Thailand with a less transparent used car market and BYD as a market leader capable of starting discount wars, the situation is I guess worse. 

[Andrew Dwyer]

52 minutes ago, 4myr said:

I've visited the Motor Expo and I was impressed with the quality feel of Chinese EV cars around 1M baht compared to Japanese in that price range e.g. Honda HRV, Mitsu Xpander.

 

I would qualify Geely EX5 as top notch in terms of specs and battery. BYD Atto 3 is a bit outdated already.
JY Air from Juneyao Auto is also not bad in terms of specs [e.g. 135kw dc charging] , however who ever heard of this brand.
Other brands that are worth mentioning: Deepal S07 is a bit above 1M, however uses NMC battery and charges below 100 kw. Aion V has more range than the usual 420km WLTP of extended range cars in Thailand, however fails in quality feel.
Not to mention Neta X that just got rescued from a bankruptcy.

 

But still on the fence to pull the trigger.
It is a buyers market. More competition and supply vs demand means more discounted prices.

In a couple of years batteries get higher densities, more charge cycles and can charge faster for the same price. Compare Geely EX5 Aegis battery in 2024 vs BYD Atto 3 blade battery gen 1 from 2022.

 

A new EV like the Geely EX5 will provide me a more comfortable ride [seats, space, suspension, ADAS/cameras, massage] and will cost me less in maintenance and electricity, however 2 inconveniences remain:

1) more inconvenience to extend long road trips.
An ICE car with a range of 600 km needs refill every 500 km within 15 minutes.
An EV extended range with a WLTP of 420km needs a refill between 20-80% SOC range [ 250 km ] to get the quickest charging time between 20-30 minutes. As charging between 80-100% is much slower. This means more and longer stops. You must plan your journey carefully if going to natural parks eg Khao Kho/Sok due to the absence of fast chargers.

2) more inconvenience with issues and repairs
This depends how long the brand is established in Thailand.

For example Geely EX5 is a new and an import only car. No plans to setup a factory in Thailand.

They launched the car very low profile at the Motor Expo with a small booth space, so I expect them to wait and see before they will invest a lot in training, a spare parts hub and extend the dealer network fast. This means longer wait times for spare parts and well trained mechanics to fix.

Just spotted today that Geely will take over the abandoned Kia dealership here in Ayutthaya on the highway service road, also saw a new dealership downtown, Omoda Jaecoo ( Chery Group ) which came as a bit of a surprise.

[KhunLA]

Even the joke section isn't immune from anti EV trolls.

 

I assume implying China, and no proof freighter sunk because of EV cargo.  Actually, highly unlikely since simply sitting there  ... IMHO

 

joke thread photo 🙄

 

original ... from Norilsk, RU 2007

 

 

This one from Microsoft production line ... anyone using windows

 

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

Thought this was amusing, I thought of someone, guess who?

 

 

[Pib]

Update:  Booking numbers after 10 of 13 days of the ongoing Motor Expo 2024....3 days of bookings number yet to go.  For last year's Expo Honda edged out BYD for 2nd place, but for this year it looks like BYD just might edge-out Honda for 2nd place unless Honda bookings surge over the next few days...and that could easily occur since the booking numbers for various brands have varied quite a bit from day to day.   See the car250 weblink for more/full details.   

 

 

https://www.car250.com/motor-expo-2024-10.html

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

Update:  Booking numbers after 10 of 13 days of the ongoing Motor Expo 2024....3 days of bookings number yet to go.  For last year's Expo Honda edged out BYD for 2nd place, but for this year it looks like BYD just might edge-out Honda for 2nd place unless Honda bookings surge over the next few days...and that could easily occur since the booking numbers for various brands have varied quite a bit from day to day.   See the car250 weblink for more/full details.   

 

 

https://www.car250.com/motor-expo-2024-10.html

My takeaway from that is twice as many people are choosing EV’s over Toyota.

 

Who is losing out from these EV sales?

[vinny41]

44 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

My takeaway from that is twice as many people are choosing EV’s over Toyota.

 

Who is losing out from these EV sales?

in April of this year there was over 17,000 bookings for EV's

But when you look at total ev sales for April,May those bookings didn't turn into registrations

https://autolifethailand.tv/ev-register-oct-2024-thailand/

April 4,088

May 5,475

 

[Pib]

11 hours ago, vinny41 said:

in April of this year there was over 17,000 bookings for EV's

But when you look at total ev sales for April,May those bookings didn't turn into registrations

https://autolifethailand.tv/ev-register-oct-2024-thailand/

April 4,088

May 5,475

 

Where does the April 17,000 bookings for EVs number come from?  I didn't see that number in the weblink you gave.   

 

Maybe you are talking EV bookings from the Mar-Apr 2024 Motor Show?

[Pib]

12 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

My takeaway from that is twice as many people are choosing EV’s over Toyota.

 

Who is losing out from these EV sales?

 

Mr Toyota needs to announce another new Toyota revolutionary hydrogen engine, solid state battery, or perpetual motion hybrid, etc., or some other awesome Toyota invention that "just around the corner, will be arriving very soon in Toyota models, it will kill off EVs, etc.,"....but until then Mr Toyota recommends to everyone they buy Toyota ICEV and HEV and don't buy those durn Chinese made EVs.

 

I think even many of the anti-EV Youtubers are getting tired of Toyota's announcements of greener Toyota pastures just over the next hill as many viewers figure out they are being gas-lighted. 

[vinny41]

38 minutes ago, Pib said:

Where does the April 17,000 bookings for EVs number come from?  I didn't see that number in the weblink you gave.   

 

Maybe you are talking EV bookings from the Mar-Apr 2024 Motor Show?

Correct I was talking about the  Mar-Apr 2024 Motor Show 17,000 EV bookings which didn''t turn into registrations

[Pib]

I expect as a general rule of thumb guesstimate for how many EV bookings complete the sale to the registration stage is probably around 2 out of 3....two-thirds.

 

Various news articles have talked  vehicle financing loan "approval" rates ranging from around 50 to 80%.   Yea vehicle bookings often do not result in a final sale/registration and that is true whether the vehicle is an EV, ICEV, or HEV.

[4myr]

For those who have doubts about the lifespan of EV car batteries, here some nuggets:

 

1) https://www.wired.com/story/electric-cars-could-last-much-longer-than-most-think/

 

2) traction battery warranty provided by manufacturers

Most EV brands provides 8 years warranty or 160.000 km here in Thailand. There are even manufacturers providing more:

- JY Air provides 8 years or 800.000 km
- Neta provides a care package with a lifetime warranty, not stating the mileage

- Even Honda Thailand provides for its lithium hybrid battery a 10 year / unlimited mileage warranty, even though the battery is cabin interior air cooled with the need to remove dust and small debris from the battery package, which is less optimal than a liquid cooled EV traction battery

 

3) Geely's announcement of their Aegis battery which claims a lifespan of 1 million km safe driving and up to 50 years 

[Pib]

On 12/8/2024 at 6:51 PM, Pib said:

Update:  Booking numbers after 10 of 13 days of the ongoing Motor Expo 2024....3 days of bookings number yet to go.  For last year's Expo Honda edged out BYD for 2nd place, but for this year it looks like BYD just might edge-out Honda for 2nd place unless Honda bookings surge over the next few days...and that could easily occur since the booking numbers for various brands have varied quite a bit from day to day.   See the car250 weblink for more/full details.   

 

 

https://www.car250.com/motor-expo-2024-10.html

 

Final Update: the 13 day Motor Expo 2024 is over.  BYD which is predominately an EV manufacturer did beat out Honda for 2nd place...and not by just a little, but a lot.  And BYD was  not really far behind 1st place Toyota.  Please note that over 41% of the bookings were for 100% electric vehicles (i.e., Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV)).   The vehicle world is changing....out with the old; in with the new. 

 

Total car bookings: 54,634 cars, divided as follows:

• ICE / HEV / PHEV combustion vehicles: 32,070 vehicles, accounting for 58.7%
• 100% BEV electric vehicles: 22,564 vehicles, accounting for 41.3%

 

 

See AutoLife partial snapshots below...and see the weblink for full details.

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/motor-expo-2024-booking-overall/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[4myr]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

 

https://autolifethailand.tv/motor-expo-2024-booking-overall/

 

A few surprises for me on the final EV bookings ranking.

 

Based on what the car models offer and the  global size of their EV brand, I did not expect Aion [4th], Deepal [7th] and Zeekr [18th] to rank so high compared to their peers like Geely [Aion, Deepal] or Xpeng [Zeekr]. I can think of that these brands have plans to produce in Thailand, while Geely [19th] and Xpeng [20th] don't have. 

 

I had expected that for a pickup country like Thailand Riddara [23th] with plans to produce in Thailand would pick up more bookings. Perhaps brand name, range and bank loans can be a reason. I also did not expect Isuzu to drop to 11th place.

[4myr]

someone considering to buy a very affordable city car like Neta V, please watch this before you buy:

Quote

 

0-Star ASEAN NCAP rating with an accumulated score of 28.55 points

Adult Occupant Protection (AOP) - 7.89 points

Child Occupant Protection (COP) - 13.51 points

Safety Assist (SA) - 7.14 points 

Motorcyclist Safety (MS) - 0.00 points

Result Page - https://www.aseancap.org/result/11224

 

 

[KhunLA]

20 minutes ago, 4myr said:

someone considering to buy a very affordable city car like Neta V, please watch this before you buy:

 

Location dependent, as where I am, I rarely drive more than 50 kph, especially on the E-MC (completely exposed), to ebike, <40 kph (25 usually), to the car, which we'll use when doing stock up shopping, and requires doing a tad more speed, as on hwy #4, but also divided and very short distance.  So very little chance of an oops.

 

If doing a lot of highway miles, high speed around town and prone to oops, then yes, something to consider...maybe 

[GroveHillWanderer]

Battery breakthrough extends EV range to over 3,000 miles on a single charge

 

Quote

Researchers at Pohang University of Science & Technology (POSTECH) have introduced a revolutionary technique that can amplify the energy storage capacity of batteries by an astonishing tenfold. 

 

[KhunLA]

 

[transam]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Aaaaaah, Swift............

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, transam said:

Aaaaaah, Swift............

[transam]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Celerio is the Latin word for SWIFT........................😁

Learn something every day here, eh............🤭

[KhunLA]

15 minutes ago, transam said:

Celerio is the Latin word for SWIFT........................😁

Learn something every day here, eh............🤭

Swift is a different model in TH, as you know.  Discontinued of course ... hmm.

 

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

55 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Might mean Swift in Latin, but in other languages:

 

[KhunLA]

19 minutes ago, transam said:

Again, Celerio is the Latin word for SWIFT, now if you don't like Suzuki's word choice with a meaning that's up to you............😁

Now, if you can find another reason why Suzuki chose Celerio for there small car, let us know.😉

You do like yakkin' for no reason.   You know, as most folks in TH know, Suzuki used to sell 2 models, Celerio (which you/wife owned) and the Swift.

 

Swift .. @ ฿567,000

You can call it 'Swift', but it's not

Maximum compression (PS/rpm) 83/6,000 

Maximum torque (Newton-meter/rpm) 108/4,400 

 

 

 

Celerio ... 

 

 

And On Topic as always .... the new MG3 HEV @ ฿579,900

Engine: 1.5-liter Atkinson-cycle 4-cylinder petrol engine with 102 PS and 128 Nm of torque 

Electric motor: 136 PS with 250 Nm  👍 👍

Total system output: 194 PS

 

 

 

 

[novacova]

The Trans Am was also known as the Screaming Chicken…

We used call all Asian cars rice burners way back when .