14 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/prior-covid-infection-more-protective-than-vaccination-during-delta-surge-us-2022-01-19/

That study is for Delta.  We're on to Omicron now.  Which has been proven to evade natural immunity.  Do the research on the data from South Africa.

 

From that article:

Quote

Protection against Delta was highest, however, among people who were both vaccinated and had survived a previous COVID infection, and lowest among those who had never been infected or vaccinated, the study found.

 

Hi All

 

I haven’t posted since my escape from Thailand in June to Canada.

 

I recall that not a few posters at that time were cheerleading for Sinovac. How’s that going for you?

 

All the best, ABCbangkok

6 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Actually, he is pretty accurate description of selection.

Most people who post on here about evolution/mutation/selection muddle it up.

 

Selection acts upon the existing variation in a population.

The post is pretty accurate in describing that.

Upon a second and third reading of @utalkin2me's post I can see your point if one is fairly relaxed in acceptance of lay terminology for a complicated subject.  Perhaps I misunderstood his meaning when he stated:

 

"That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim."

 

I took that to mean that our medicines/vaccines lead to unnatural genetic variations.  That theory is a common one amongst the COVID vaccine deniers.

 

If I misunderstood, I humbly apologize to @utalkin2me.
 

31 minutes ago, ABCbangkok said:

Hi All

 

I haven’t posted since my escape from Thailand in June to Canada.

 

I recall that not a few posters at that time were cheerleading for Sinovac. How’s that going for you?

 

All the best, ABCbangkok

Don't think I understand your post....

24 minutes ago, ABCbangkok said:

Hi All

 

I haven’t posted since my escape from Thailand in June to Canada.

 

I recall that not a few posters at that time were cheerleading for Sinovac. How’s that going for you?

 

All the best, ABCbangkok

I was vaccinated with Sinovac in early August. Followup with AZ early September. Caught what I assume was the Delta variant in early October. 3 days of a sore throat and runny nose, finish. No after-effects.

The data was saying while Sinovac was like tossing a coin in terms of preventing infection, it was much more effective with respect to preventing serious illness. I'm a scientist, I follow the data.

 

At that time, due to bureaucratic delays, other vaccines such as Moderna and Pfizer were as scarce as hen's teeth in Thailand. I took what I could get, because I am in the most vulnerable age cohort, and waiting for months for alternatives would have been stupid.

 

I had myself tested for COVID antibodies two weeks after the AZ jab, 64 U/mL.

 

I'm not a cheerleader for Sinovac. Having said that, I believe the Sinovac/AZ combination shielded me from far worse outcomes.

 

Those consequences include long COVID, which is well documented. Here's the most recent link:

https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/thai-study-examines-lasting-side-effects-of-long-covid-19?utm_source=Thaiger+Daily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2022-01-22

 

Vaccines bad, no vaccines good. Eric Blair would have been amused.

 

 

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

We live in a global society. If your actions have ZERO impact on me, then do what you want.  With vaccines, they have a direct impact.  Thus, the numerous vaccine mandates globally.

 

The set of people who want to decide for the other are medical and scientific professionals.  People we should all listen to.  Sadly, some get their info from social media.  And fall for it.

France have had vaccine passports since July and managed to hit a whopping 464,769 infections in a single day!   What's your expert opinion on that?

Just now, James105 said:

France have had vaccine passports since July and managed to hit a whopping 464,769 infections in a single day!   What's your expert opinion on that?

The issue is not about how many infections occur, that's a given with a  new variant. It's about how many people become seriously ill and require hospitalisation.

The data is saying unvaccinated people are far more likely to end up in hospital, or need an ICU. Think about what would have happened if the whole of France had been unvaccinated, instead of focusing on irrelevancy.

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

The issue is not about how many infections occur, that's a given with a  new variant. It's about how many people become seriously ill and require hospitalisation.

The data is saying unvaccinated people are far more likely to end up in hospital, or need an ICU. Think about what would have happened if the whole of France had been unvaccinated, instead of focusing on irrelevancy.

Probably the same as what happened in 25% vaccinated South Africa I would think.  Not very much. 

 

44 minutes ago, James105 said:

Probably the same as what happened in 25% vaccinated South Africa I would think.  Not very much.   

 

CDC: Boosters 90% effective in preventing severe COVID-19, hospitalizations

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/trending/cdc-studies-show-boosters-90-effective-preventing-severe-covid-19-hospitalizations/WCI3J7EFGNEX5BHKVX6IKWPP7E/

1 hour ago, James105 said:

Probably the same as what happened in 25% vaccinated South Africa I would think.  Not very much.  

If extremism consists of following the data, making informed decisions about my personal situation, and ignoring the beliefs of anti-vaxxer fruitloops, guilty as charged.

COVID has come and gone for me, due to my choices.

I hope it's not too late for you either.

9 hours ago, cdemundo said:

Actually, he is pretty accurate description of selection.

Most people who post on here about evolution/mutation/selection muddle it up.

 

Selection acts upon the existing variation in a population.

The post is pretty accurate in describing that.

Well, actually not. For one thing, his description implicitly posits that the covid variants were pre-existing in the population all along. Not the case. These are mutations. They are novel. They are new.

Second he claims that it's the vaccines that are responsible for the rise of variants because they inhibit the spread of previous versions of the virus. First off, this does nothing to explain why these variants become dominant in unvaccinated populations which is still most of the world. But even in vaccinated populations what drives the success of these variants is the fact they they are more transmissible than the variants that preceded them. It may be true that in a small, way vaccination helps variants compete by inhibiting other competitors.. But overwhelmingly it boils down to the R factor: transmissibility. The Omicron variant is far more transmissible than any other variant. So naturally it's going to outcompete other variants in the vaccinated and the unvaccinated.

28 minutes ago, hughrection said:

 

The unvaccinated spread any strain of COVID much more effectively, because they are sicker for longer.

CDC: Boosters 90% effective in preventing severe COVID-19, hospitalizations

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/trending/cdc-studies-show-boosters-90-effective-preventing-severe-covid-19-hospitalizations/WCI3J7EFGNEX5BHKVX6IKWPP7E/

22 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

The unvaccinated spread any strain of COVID much more effectively, because they are sicker for longer.

If they self isolate, then what does it matter. If a vaccinated person has omicron and shows no symptoms, they will still freely pass it on to others. Unless you are expecting everyone to take a home pcr test every 3 days, then it is completely unworkable.

The fact that they are reducing self isolation to only 5 days should tell you what is more important here and it's not the people but the economy.

8 minutes ago, hughrection said:

If they self isolate, then what does it matter. If a vaccinated person has omicron and shows no symptoms, they will still freely pass it on to others. Unless you are expecting everyone to take a home pcr test every 3 days, then it is completely unworkable.

The fact that they are reducing self isolation to only 5 days should tell you what is more important here and it's not the people but the economy.

Your reply takes no account of Lacessit's point that the unvaccinated transmit more of the virus for longer periods than do the vaccinated.

17 minutes ago, hughrection said:

If they self isolate, then what does it matter. If a vaccinated person has omicron and shows no symptoms, they will still freely pass it on to others. Unless you are expecting everyone to take a home pcr test every 3 days, then it is completely unworkable.

The fact that they are reducing self isolation to only 5 days should tell you what is more important here and it's not the people but the economy.

Guessing your not aware unvaccinated can have the virus and show NO symptoms.

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Guessing your not aware unvaccinated can have the virus and show NO symptoms.

Guess you’re not aware that the vaccinated can do exactly the same. 
 

How do you think Omicron spread around the world so fast if nobody can get on a plane without a vaccination and a test?

36 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Your reply takes no account of Lacessit's point that the unvaccinated transmit more of the virus for longer periods than do the vaccinated.

And if they are self isolating, then the term will be longer but we will still get the same outcome.

43 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Guessing your not aware unvaccinated can have the virus and show NO symptoms.

Of course I am. I was replying to another poster with regard to their statement.

5 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

Right now we’re all after the unvaccinated, but if we manage to force everyone on earth to be vaccinated, next thing you know it will be the people who refuse to get their third or fourth booster who are causing all the trouble. Where does it end?

In Australia, if you don't have your booster - you are no longer fully vaccinated. ????

11 minutes ago, hughrection said:

And if they are self isolating, then the term will be longer but we will still get the same outcome.

And if they are not self-isolating as in cases of the asymptomatic?

56 minutes ago, hughrection said:

If they self isolate, then what does it matter. If a vaccinated person has omicron and shows no symptoms, they will still freely pass it on to others. Unless you are expecting everyone to take a home pcr test every 3 days, then it is completely unworkable.

The fact that they are reducing self isolation to only 5 days should tell you what is more important here and it's not the people but the economy.

The first word in your post, "If". It destroys the rest of your argument.

I have not seen vaccinated people marching in the streets, protesting about anti-vaxxers, They just get on with their lives. OTOH, I have not seen any evidence anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are capable of acting responsibly.

Who knows, the next variant in the COVID series may paralyse its hosts like polio. Do you feel lucky?

33 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And if they are not self-isolating as in cases of the asymptomatic?

Why don’t you acknowledge the vaccinated asymptomatics?

26 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

Why don’t you acknowledge the vaccinated asymptomatics?

Because the vaccinated spread less of the virus for less of the time than do the unvaccinated.

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

 

Who knows, the next variant in the COVID series may paralyse its hosts like polio. Do you feel lucky?

If it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen. The vaccines don’t do a good enough job of stopping infection to prevent new mutations from popping up. 

If you’re infected, the virus is replicating inside your body, and mutation is possible. Vaccinated or not. 

20 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

 

As far as my mask goes, I’m in Mexico, where tourism was never shut down, and all covid related entry requirements have just been dropped. Everything seems just fine here.

Masks are required inside of public buildings and on public transit, at least on paper, but in practice few people seem

to care. It’s very refreshing. 
Hope all of you guys in Thailand are enjoying your safe space. 

LOL, Mexico recorded just under 50,000 new cases either today or yesterday. Thailand was a bit over 8000.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

In addition, Mexico is probably one of the world's rectums as far as kidnappings, murder and other violent crimes go.

 

Yes, I am enjoying my safe space in Thailand, thank you.

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Because the vaccinated spread less of the virus for less of the time than do the unvaccinated.

Is there a new study concerning Omicron to comfirm this? Because everything I was reading about Delta a few months ago was saying that the vaccinated could be just as contagious as the unvaccinated when infected. I can’t see any reason why Omicron would be different, considering that it’s even more contagious than Delta, but I’m happy to be shown that I’m wrong. 

A number of posters here have been claiming, wrongly it seems, that COVID vaccines in general don't at all prevent Omicron infections. That's NOT what the latest science shows, according to a New York Times report last month.

 

"All vaccines still seem to provide a significant degree of protection against serious illness from Omicron, which is the most crucial goal. But only the Pfizer and Moderna shots, when reinforced by a booster, appear to have initial success at stopping infections, and these vaccines are unavailable in most of the world.

 

The other shots — including those from AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson and vaccines manufactured in China and Russia — do little to nothing to stop the spread of Omicron, early research shows.

...

The Pfizer and Moderna shots use the new mRNA technology, which has consistently offered the best protection against infection with every variant. All of the other vaccines are based on older methods of triggering an immune response.

 

The Chinese vaccines Sinopharm and Sinovac — which make up almost half of all shots delivered globally — offer almost zero protection from Omicron infection."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/19/health/omicron-vaccines-efficacy.html

 

And an update from the NYT yesterday on the same issue, citing new U.S. CDC data:

 

Booster shots are instrumental in protecting against Omicron, new C.D.C. data suggest.

 

"Booster shots of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines aren’t just preventing infections with the highly contagious Omicron variant — they’re also keeping infected Americans from ending up in the hospital, according to data published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

 

The extra doses are 90 percent effective against hospitalization with the variant, the agency reported. Booster shots also reduced the likelihood of a visit to an emergency department or urgent care clinic. The extra doses were most effective against infection and death among Americans aged 50 and older, the data showed.

...

On Thursday night, the C.D.C. published additional data showing that in December, unvaccinated Americans 50 years and older were about 45 times more likely to be hospitalized than those who were vaccinated and got a third shot."

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/21/health/cdc-covid-booster-omicron.html

 

 

19 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

LOL, Mexico recorded just under 50,000 new cases either today or yesterday. Thailand was a bit over 8000.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

In addition, Mexico is probably one of the world's rectums as far as kidnappings, murder and other violent crimes go.

 

Yes, I am enjoying my safe space in Thailand, thank you.

I’m quite happy to take my chances in Mexico if it means being able to live a somewhat normal life.... It feels quite safe here, but I’m glad you’re enjoying Thailand. 
 

As far as case numbers in Mexico are concerned, I’ve had two jabs and recovered from covid already, so it’s no longer something that I worry about. 
Concerning case numbers in Thailand and the rest of SEA, all of the people I know there (Thais, Vietnamese, Cambodians - not expats) who came down sick in the past two years, were too terrified of the consequences to report it, so the official numbers are meaningless to me. 
China, as an example, is still only reporting slightly over 100,000 total cases, and still less than 5000 total deaths. It’s amazing how good you can make things look when you have the power to arrest and imprison people for reporting bad news. 

20 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

If it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen. The vaccines don’t do a good enough job of stopping infection to prevent new mutations from popping up. 

If you’re infected, the virus is replicating inside your body, and mutation is possible. Vaccinated or not. 

Quite true, but the vaccines do prevent you getting an illness serious enough to kill you or disable you,

I really have to thank you for your post about Mexico, it made my day.