13 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

Is there a new study concerning Omicron to comfirm this? Because everything I was reading about Delta a few months ago was saying that the vaccinated could be just as contagious as the unvaccinated when infected. I can’t see any reason why Omicron would be different, considering that it’s even more contagious than Delta, but I’m happy to be shown that I’m wrong. 

Given Tall Guy Johnny's post above, I guess your happy now.

46 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And if they are not self-isolating as in cases of the asymptomatic?

We can do this all day if you like. ????

 

... and what if the vaccinated who are also asymptomatic are not self-isolating?

 

The viral load found in vaxed and unvaxed is the same for omicron - Fact. ????

 

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

I have not seen any evidence anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are capable of acting responsibly.

Are you walking around with your eyes closed? There are 10 million unvaxed people in Thailand - are you suggesting none of them wear their mask, do not socially distance and just don't care. That is a brave statement to make.

There are 86,000 people working in the UK NHS - doctors, nurses, surgeons et all who are not vaxed. Are you suggesting that they too are not taking responsible actions in their daily work.

4 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

I’m quite happy to take my chances in Mexico if it means being able to live a somewhat normal life.... It feels quite safe here, but I’m glad you’re enjoying Thailand. 
 

As far as case numbers in Mexico are concerned, I’ve had two jabs and recovered from covid already, so it’s no longer something that I worry about. 
Concerning case numbers in Thailand and the rest of SEA, all of the people I know there (Thais, Vietnamese, Cambodians - not expats) who came down sick in the past two years, were too terrified of the consequences to report it, so the official numbers are meaningless to me. 
China, as an example, is still only reporting slightly over 100,000 total cases, and still less than 5000 total deaths. It’s amazing how good you can make things look when you have the power to arrest and imprison people for reporting bad news. 

I regard my life in Thailand as quite normal. It would certainly be abnormal if I was living in Australia.

Like you, I've had two jabs, had COVID, recovered quickly. I intend to have a booster when it is due, I am a belt and braces person.

You've had two jabs. You don't consider they gave you a degree of protection from more serious outcomes?

True, China has low case and death rates, and they do control the media. The CCP also has the power to lock down entire cities and compel its citizens to be vaccinated, which does not happen in democracies. That's an alternative explanation of their comparative success, unpalatable as it may be to civil libertarians.

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Quite true, but the vaccines do prevent you getting an illness serious enough to kill you or disable you,

I really have to thank you for your post about Mexico, it made my day.

I’ve agreed with this statement since the beginning, and have said it on this forum many times. It’s the basis of my whole argument that vaccinated people should feel safe from others at this point. 

I have no idea how many unvaccinated people I’ve come into contact with during my time in Mexico, but it’s doesn’t matter to me because I feel protected having been vaccinated and already survived the disease. 

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

The CCP also has the power to lock down entire cities and compel its citizens to be vaccinated, which does not happen in democracies.

Remember what you said here when you are insisting all get vaccinated. ????

To be fair, and report whatever legitimate news is available, there also was news in the past few days of a very small and preliminary study out of Israel on its use of a fourth Pfizer vaccine booster shot.

 

And, while the researchers involved in that study reported initial findings that the fourth Pfizer dose wasn't very effective at preventing Omicron infections, they also reported those vaccinated with the 4th dose did have somewhat fewer infections.

 

Israeli trial, world’s first, finds 4th dose ‘not good enough’ against Omicron

 

Expert at Sheba Medical Center says jab raises COVID antibody levels, but there are ‘still a lot of infections’ among those who received it

 

Nearly a month after Sheba Medical Center launched a landmark study to test the efficacy of a fourth COVID shot, the hospital said Monday that this fourth booster was only partially effective in protecting against the Omicron strain.

 

“The vaccine, which was very effective against the previous strains, is less effective against the Omicron strain,” Prof. Gili Regev-Yochay, a lead researcher in the experiment said.

 

“We see an increase in antibodies, higher than after the third dose,” Regev-Yochay said. “However, we see many infected with Omicron who received the fourth dose. Granted, a bit less than in the control group, but still a lot of infections,” she added.

 

(more)

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-finds-4th-dose-not-good-enough-against-omicron/

 

So, even the Israel study above contradicts those here who are claiming (in this case mRNA vaccines) do nothing to prevent Omicron infections.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, hughrection said:

Are you walking around with your eyes closed? There are 10 million unvaxed people in Thailand - are you suggesting none of them wear their mask, do not socially distance and just don't care. That is a brave statement to make.

There are 86,000 people working in the UK NHS - doctors, nurses, surgeons et all who are not vaxed. Are you suggesting that they too are not taking responsible actions in their daily work. You are not making sense at all.

Perhaps my post would make sense if you compare the actions of vaccinated people against deniers. We don't march in the streets, acting as superspreaders. Deniers do.

A useful starting point is the rallies Trump ran in the lead-up to the presidential election. Then the rallies held in Melbourne and Sidney. Don't try to tell me those idiots were acting responsibly.

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

 

You've had two jabs. You don't consider they gave you a degree of protection from more serious outcomes?

True, China has low case and death rates, and they do control the media. The CCP also has the power to lock down entire cities and compel its citizens to be vaccinated, which does not happen in democracies. That's an alternative explanation of their comparative success, unpalatable as it may be to civil libertarians.

I absolutely do consider that they’ve given me a good degree of protection, that’s why I’m walking around in Mexico unmasked, wherever I can, without a care in the world what others choose for themselves. 
 

The CCP does have the power to lock down whole cities and compel vaccinations, but considering the staggeringly high case numbers in other more transparent countries with high levels of vaccination, where supposedly superior vaccines were used, I don’t buy the idea that China’s high level of social control and sub-par vaccines have been able to achieve such absurdly low case numbers. 

14 minutes ago, hughrection said:

We can do this all day if you like. ????

 

... and what if the vaccinated who are also asymptomatic are not self-isolating?

 

The viral load found in vaxed and unvaxed is the same for omicron - Fact. ????

 

I don't know if that's a fact. What I do know is that the vaccinated are less likely to be infected in the first place. So if all those unvaccinated parties got vaccinated, less of them would be spreading the infection.

7 minutes ago, hughrection said:

Remember what you said here when you are insisting all get vaccinated. ????

Go back through my posts, please. I have never said that.

I have said if you want to refuse vaccination, there are consequences. It's up to you whether you accept them, or rage impotently against them.

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I don't know if that's a fact. What I do know is that the vaccinated are less likely to be infected in the first place. So if all those unvaccinated parties got vaccinated, less of them would be spreading the infection.

Pfizer CEO says two Covid vaccine doses aren't 'enough for omicron' (cnbc.com)

 

I think you mentioned that you got 1 Sino (apologies if I am wrong)

 

Study finds, Sinovac Chinese vaccine no match against Omicron variant | NewsTrack English 1 (newstracklive.com)

 

You can have the last word ( and I am sure you will take it ???? ) as I am finished with this now, I have a job to do. ????  Have a great day.

15 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Go back through my posts, please. I have never said that.

I have said if you want to refuse vaccination, there are consequences. It's up to you whether you accept them, or rage impotently against them.

I fail to see the consequences. I can't fly internationally for now, but that will change within 2 months.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

I absolutely do consider that they’ve given me a good degree of protection, that’s why I’m walking around in Mexico unmasked, wherever I can, without a care in the world what others choose for themselves. 
 

The CCP does have the power to lock down whole cities and compel vaccinations, but considering the staggeringly high case numbers in other more transparent countries with high levels of vaccination, where supposedly superior vaccines were used, I don’t buy the idea that China’s high level of social control and sub-par vaccines have been able to achieve such absurdly low case numbers. 

I think you'll find the staggeringly high case numbers, in proportion, are coming from the unvaccinated.

To me, it's not about infection. It's about overloaded hospital facilities. Sinovac may be sub-par in terms of preventing infection, but the data is saying hospitalisation is far less likely.

If you are in a city which is in rigid lockdown, and you get infected, it's quite possible you survive in your apartment and the case is not even registered.

21 minutes ago, hughrection said:

We can do this all day if you like. ????

 

... and what if the vaccinated who are also asymptomatic are not self-isolating?

 

The viral load found in vaxed and unvaxed is the same for omicron - Fact. ????

 

You sure about that "fact"?

Infectious viral load in unvaccinated and vaccinated patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 WT, Delta and Omicron

Interpretation Quantitative IVTs can give detailed insights into virus shedding kinetics. Vaccination was associated with lower infectious titres and faster clearance for Delta, showing that vaccination would also lower transmission risk. Omicron vaccine breakthrough infections did not show elevated IVTs compared to Delta, suggesting that other mechanisms than increase VL contribute to the high infectiousness of Omicron.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v1

26 minutes ago, hughrection said:

I fail to see the consequences. I can't fly internationally for now, but that will change within 2 months.

 

No comorbidities, fit and just over 50 - so no issues with getting Omicron and moving through

 

I understand if you come under the umbrella of needing to get a vaccine, but you really need to stop trying to justify it to other people who don't need it. Have a great day. ????

My son had two friends who died from COVID, both in their forties. Muay Thai practitioners, as he is. Both unvaccinated.

Depending on the countries, the consequences are being refused privileges open to vaccinated people.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

more contagious than Delta,

 

COPENHAGEN, Jan 3 (Reuters) - The Omicron coronavirus variant is better at circumventing vaccinated peoples' immunity than the Delta variant, according to a Danish study published last week, helping explain why Omicron is spreading more rapidly.

 

1. Omicron 2.7-3.7x more infectious than Delta among vaccinated
2. Booster-vaccinated less likely to transmit coronavirus
3. Risk of hospitalization from Omicron half that of Delta

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/omicron-evades-immunity-better-than-delta-danish-study-finds-2022-01-03/

 

 

So yes, omicron has a higher R(value) than delta variant and therefore spreads much faster.

 

5 minutes ago, hughrection said:

Pfizer CEO says two Covid vaccine doses aren't 'enough for omicron' (cnbc.com)

 

I think you mentioned that you got 1 Sino (apologies if I am wrong)

 

Study finds, Sinovac Chinese vaccine no match against Omicron variant | NewsTrack English 1 (newstracklive.com)

 

You can have the last word ( and I am sure you will take it ???? ) as I am finished with this now, I have a job to do. ????  Have a great day.

In regards to Sinovac, as I guess I'm going to have to state for the 100th time, what I don't think is exaggeration, there's effectiveness against infection and effectiveness against serious illness and death. Antibodies are responsible for the former and the T-cell system for the latter. Sinovac has consistently show itself to be effective against serious illness and death. Not as effective in this regard as the WEstern vaccines, but still a powerful defense.

 

As for the Pfizer CEO, the latest info from the CDC says a booster is 90% effective against serious illness and death from Omicron.

"Booster shots of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines are not just reducing the number of infections with the highly contagious Omicron variant, they’re also keeping infected Americans out of hospitals, according to data published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The extra doses are 90 percent effective at preventing hospitalization with the variant, the agency reported. Booster shots also reduce the likelihood of a visit to an emergency department or urgent care clinic. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/21/health/covid-boosters-cdc-omicron.html

 

58 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Given Tall Guy Johnny's post above, I guess your happy now.

I can’t read his links, they’re behind a paywall, but the quotes I see seem to focus more on what I’ve already agreed with; that the vaccines offer good protection against severe illness and death. 
 

At the end of the day, what appears to need to happen in order for us to go back to normal, is for the hospitals to be back under capacity. At this point, even if you took away all of the unvaccinated patients, there would still be too many vaccinated patients for them to cope with, so until we have a vaccine that actually stops those people from getting covid at all, I’m not convinced that forcing everyone else to be vaccinated will really help.
I also think that governments trying to force it on people is causing more social issues than it’s worth. One example of that is how covid positive medical staff are now being allowed to continue working in some cases, as there is a shortage after others were fired for refusing the vaccine. Another example is how the Quebec government in Canada is considering a hefty tax on the unvaccinated. A money grab, if I ever saw one. 

"Dr. David Dowdy, associate professor of epidemiology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said it's difficult to succinctly explain the vaccines’ nuanced effects on transmission.

 

A vaccine might protect you from a passing interaction with someone at a grocery store, but it may not prevent infection from someone you live with and share air with for several hours a day. 

 

“It gets very easy to misconstrue,” Dowdy said. “If someone asks, do vaccines prevent infection, and you have to give a yes or no answer, then the answer is no, they’re not a perfect blockade. But do the vaccines offer some protection against infection? The answer is yes.”

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/21/fact-check-vaccines-limit-serious-illness-and-death-covid-19/9185671002/

 

1 minute ago, Ryan754326 said:

I can’t read his links, they’re behind a paywall, but the quotes I see seem to focus more on what I’ve already agreed with; that the vaccines offer good protection against severe illness. 
 

At the end of the day, what appears to need to happen in order for us to go back to normal, is for the hospitals to be back under capacity. At this point, even if you took away all of the unvaccinated patients, there would still be too many vaccinated patients for them to cope with, so until we have a vaccine that actually stops those people from getting covid at all, I’m not convinced that forcing everyone else to be vaccinated will really help.
I also think that governments trying to force it on people is causing more social issues than it’s worth. One example of that is how covid positive medical staff are now being allowed to continue working in some cases, as there is a shortage after some were let go for refusing the vaccine. Another example is how the Quebec government in Canada is considering a hefty tax on the unvaccinated. A money grab, if I ever saw one. 

The news from the CDC is all over the place. It's easy to find it says that being boosted cut your chances of hospitalization by 90%. So if everyone were boosted that would relieve the pressure on the hospital system.

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I think you'll find the staggeringly high case numbers, in proportion, are coming from the unvaccinated.

To me, it's not about infection. It's about overloaded hospital facilities. Sinovac may be sub-par in terms of preventing infection, but the data is saying hospitalisation is far less likely.

If you are in a city which is in rigid lockdown, and you get infected, it's quite possible you survive in your apartment and the case is not even registered.

The staggeringly high numbers of hospitalizations looks to me to be coming from both groups. I agree that proportionally it’s more unvaccinated, but where I live, it’s a fact that the overall number of vaccinated people in hospitals is higher, so no matter how you break it down, there’s simply too many, even if the unvaxxed were taken out of the picture altogether. 
This shouldn’t really be a surprise at all though, because in the city where I live there are only 9 total ICU beds available to begin with. The media gets lots of clicks by reporting the terrifying truth that we are 20% over capacity, but in reality, that only represents two people. 

34 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The news from the CDC is all over the place. It's easy to find it says that being boosted cut your chances of hospitalization by 90%. So if everyone were boosted that would relieve the pressure on the hospital system.

Where I live (Alberta, Canada) there are more vaccinated in hospitals than unvaccinated. I understand that the vaccinated represent a much higher proportion of the population, so this is not unexpected, but at the end of the day it’s still too many, and it doesn’t really take that many to overload the system in the first place. We were overcrowded long before covid came along, and covid disappearing won’t fix that problem. 
 

 

Back in July of 2021 I considered how Au's covid strategies almost eradicated covid but now if you are looking to help the corona virus infect people, few countries on Earth do it better than Australia now. They have gone from virtually no COVID cases to a massive increases covid case infections which the Au masterminds MAY (based on M Foley's comment) believe this to be a sound strategy now.

 

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?facet=none&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=true&country=~AUS

 

27 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

(Alberta, Canada)

Seems to be the case in Ontario, (not Cali) Canada as well.

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data#casesByVaccinationStatus

A trolling post based on nationality that also included a diversionary comment on the off-topic issue of obesity has been removed, along with several ensuing replies.

 

34 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Back in July of 2021 I considered how Au's covid strategies almost eradicated covid but now if you are looking to help the corona virus infect people, few countries on Earth do it better than Australia now. They have gone from virtually no COVID cases to a massive increases covid case infections which the Au masterminds MAY (based on M Foley's comment) believe this to be a sound strategy now.

 

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?facet=none&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=true&country=~AUS

 

Cherry-picking from a 7 day moving average, it is still only 2 deaths per million. You'll probably get more frequency from heart attacks. The more important data is how many have "long COVID" from the delta and omicron waves, and how that is distributed between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. It's not only hospital resources that get tied up, it's also rehabilitation services.

 

You'll get no argument from me Australian political leadership is incompetent. IMO many Australians are itching for the next election, when they can hand out retribution to the spin doctors.

1 hour ago, Ryan754326 said:

Where I live (Alberta, Canada) there are more vaccinated in hospitals than unvaccinated. I understand that the vaccinated represent a much higher proportion of the population, so this is not unexpected, but at the end of the day it’s still too many, and it doesn’t really take that many to overload the system in the first place. We were overcrowded long before covid came along, and covid disappearing won’t fix that problem. 
 

 

Are you surprised? Conservative governments worldwide traditionally underfund public health, it is one of their favorite targets.

Fortunately for Australia, every time a Liberal ( sic ) government tries to tinker with cost-cutting, it gets a bloody nose from the voters.

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Dr. David Dowdy, associate professor of epidemiology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said it's difficult to succinctly explain the vaccines’ nuanced effects on transmission.

 

A vaccine might protect you from a passing interaction with someone at a grocery store, but it may not prevent infection from someone you live with and share air with for several hours a day. 

 

“It gets very easy to misconstrue,” Dowdy said. “If someone asks, do vaccines prevent infection, and you have to give a yes or no answer, then the answer is no, they’re not a perfect blockade. But do the vaccines offer some protection against infection? The answer is yes.”

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/21/fact-check-vaccines-limit-serious-illness-and-death-covid-19/9185671002/

 

Paracelsus said the same about 500 years ago. It's why frontline medical workers who are vaccinated get infected, they are more exposed to transmission.

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

A number of posters here have been claiming, wrongly it seems, that COVID vaccines in general don't at all prevent Omicron infections. That's NOT what the latest science shows, according to a New York Times report last month.

 

"All vaccines still seem to provide a significant degree of protection against serious illness from Omicron, which is the most crucial goal. But only the Pfizer and Moderna shots, when reinforced by a booster, appear to have initial success at stopping infections, and these vaccines are unavailable in most of the world.

 

And more on this point -- Pfizer vaxed and boosted people are less likely to transmit the virus, including Omicron, than the unvaccinated, from another separate study:

 

"Seventy-eight percent of Danes have been fully vaccinated, while nearly 48% of those have received a third "boosted" shot. More than eight out of ten Danes have received Pfizer-BioNTech's vaccine.

 

The study also found that booster-vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus, regardless of the variant, than the unvaccinated."

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/omicron-evades-immunity-better-than-delta-danish-study-finds-2022-01-03/