The Silent, Vaccinated, Impatient Majority

[hughrection]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I don't know if that's a fact. What I do know is that the vaccinated are less likely to be infected in the first place. So if all those unvaccinated parties got vaccinated, less of them would be spreading the infection.

Pfizer CEO says two Covid vaccine doses aren't 'enough for omicron' (cnbc.com)

 

I think you mentioned that you got 1 Sino (apologies if I am wrong)

 

Study finds, Sinovac Chinese vaccine no match against Omicron variant | NewsTrack English 1 (newstracklive.com)

 

You can have the last word ( and I am sure you will take it ???? ) as I am finished with this now, I have a job to do. ????  Have a great day.

[hughrection]

15 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Go back through my posts, please. I have never said that.

I have said if you want to refuse vaccination, there are consequences. It's up to you whether you accept them, or rage impotently against them.

I fail to see the consequences. I can't fly internationally for now, but that will change within 2 months.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by onthedarkside
unsubstantiated claims removed

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

I absolutely do consider that they’ve given me a good degree of protection, that’s why I’m walking around in Mexico unmasked, wherever I can, without a care in the world what others choose for themselves. 
 

The CCP does have the power to lock down whole cities and compel vaccinations, but considering the staggeringly high case numbers in other more transparent countries with high levels of vaccination, where supposedly superior vaccines were used, I don’t buy the idea that China’s high level of social control and sub-par vaccines have been able to achieve such absurdly low case numbers. 

I think you'll find the staggeringly high case numbers, in proportion, are coming from the unvaccinated.

To me, it's not about infection. It's about overloaded hospital facilities. Sinovac may be sub-par in terms of preventing infection, but the data is saying hospitalisation is far less likely.

If you are in a city which is in rigid lockdown, and you get infected, it's quite possible you survive in your apartment and the case is not even registered.

[placeholder]

21 minutes ago, hughrection said:

We can do this all day if you like. ????

 

... and what if the vaccinated who are also asymptomatic are not self-isolating?

 

The viral load found in vaxed and unvaxed is the same for omicron - Fact. ????

 

You sure about that "fact"?

Infectious viral load in unvaccinated and vaccinated patients infected with SARS-CoV-2 WT, Delta and Omicron

Interpretation Quantitative IVTs can give detailed insights into virus shedding kinetics. Vaccination was associated with lower infectious titres and faster clearance for Delta, showing that vaccination would also lower transmission risk. Omicron vaccine breakthrough infections did not show elevated IVTs compared to Delta, suggesting that other mechanisms than increase VL contribute to the high infectiousness of Omicron.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.10.22269010v1

[Lacessit]

26 minutes ago, hughrection said:

I fail to see the consequences. I can't fly internationally for now, but that will change within 2 months.

 

No comorbidities, fit and just over 50 - so no issues with getting Omicron and moving through

 

I understand if you come under the umbrella of needing to get a vaccine, but you really need to stop trying to justify it to other people who don't need it. Have a great day. ????

My son had two friends who died from COVID, both in their forties. Muay Thai practitioners, as he is. Both unvaccinated.

Depending on the countries, the consequences are being refused privileges open to vaccinated people.

 

 

[fjb 24]

2 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

more contagious than Delta,

 

COPENHAGEN, Jan 3 (Reuters) - The Omicron coronavirus variant is better at circumventing vaccinated peoples' immunity than the Delta variant, according to a Danish study published last week, helping explain why Omicron is spreading more rapidly.

 

1. Omicron 2.7-3.7x more infectious than Delta among vaccinated
2. Booster-vaccinated less likely to transmit coronavirus
3. Risk of hospitalization from Omicron half that of Delta

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/omicron-evades-immunity-better-than-delta-danish-study-finds-2022-01-03/

 

 

So yes, omicron has a higher R(value) than delta variant and therefore spreads much faster.

 

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, hughrection said:

Pfizer CEO says two Covid vaccine doses aren't 'enough for omicron' (cnbc.com)

 

I think you mentioned that you got 1 Sino (apologies if I am wrong)

 

Study finds, Sinovac Chinese vaccine no match against Omicron variant | NewsTrack English 1 (newstracklive.com)

 

You can have the last word ( and I am sure you will take it ???? ) as I am finished with this now, I have a job to do. ????  Have a great day.

In regards to Sinovac, as I guess I'm going to have to state for the 100th time, what I don't think is exaggeration, there's effectiveness against infection and effectiveness against serious illness and death. Antibodies are responsible for the former and the T-cell system for the latter. Sinovac has consistently show itself to be effective against serious illness and death. Not as effective in this regard as the WEstern vaccines, but still a powerful defense.

 

As for the Pfizer CEO, the latest info from the CDC says a booster is 90% effective against serious illness and death from Omicron.

"Booster shots of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines are not just reducing the number of infections with the highly contagious Omicron variant, they’re also keeping infected Americans out of hospitals, according to data published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The extra doses are 90 percent effective at preventing hospitalization with the variant, the agency reported. Booster shots also reduce the likelihood of a visit to an emergency department or urgent care clinic. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/21/health/covid-boosters-cdc-omicron.html

 

[Ryan754326]

58 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Given Tall Guy Johnny's post above, I guess your happy now.

I can’t read his links, they’re behind a paywall, but the quotes I see seem to focus more on what I’ve already agreed with; that the vaccines offer good protection against severe illness and death. 
 

At the end of the day, what appears to need to happen in order for us to go back to normal, is for the hospitals to be back under capacity. At this point, even if you took away all of the unvaccinated patients, there would still be too many vaccinated patients for them to cope with, so until we have a vaccine that actually stops those people from getting covid at all, I’m not convinced that forcing everyone else to be vaccinated will really help.
I also think that governments trying to force it on people is causing more social issues than it’s worth. One example of that is how covid positive medical staff are now being allowed to continue working in some cases, as there is a shortage after others were fired for refusing the vaccine. Another example is how the Quebec government in Canada is considering a hefty tax on the unvaccinated. A money grab, if I ever saw one. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ryan754326

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

"Dr. David Dowdy, associate professor of epidemiology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said it's difficult to succinctly explain the vaccines’ nuanced effects on transmission.

 

A vaccine might protect you from a passing interaction with someone at a grocery store, but it may not prevent infection from someone you live with and share air with for several hours a day. 

 

“It gets very easy to misconstrue,” Dowdy said. “If someone asks, do vaccines prevent infection, and you have to give a yes or no answer, then the answer is no, they’re not a perfect blockade. But do the vaccines offer some protection against infection? The answer is yes.”

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/21/fact-check-vaccines-limit-serious-illness-and-death-covid-19/9185671002/

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, Ryan754326 said:

I can’t read his links, they’re behind a paywall, but the quotes I see seem to focus more on what I’ve already agreed with; that the vaccines offer good protection against severe illness. 
 

At the end of the day, what appears to need to happen in order for us to go back to normal, is for the hospitals to be back under capacity. At this point, even if you took away all of the unvaccinated patients, there would still be too many vaccinated patients for them to cope with, so until we have a vaccine that actually stops those people from getting covid at all, I’m not convinced that forcing everyone else to be vaccinated will really help.
I also think that governments trying to force it on people is causing more social issues than it’s worth. One example of that is how covid positive medical staff are now being allowed to continue working in some cases, as there is a shortage after some were let go for refusing the vaccine. Another example is how the Quebec government in Canada is considering a hefty tax on the unvaccinated. A money grab, if I ever saw one. 

The news from the CDC is all over the place. It's easy to find it says that being boosted cut your chances of hospitalization by 90%. So if everyone were boosted that would relieve the pressure on the hospital system.

[Ryan754326]

27 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I think you'll find the staggeringly high case numbers, in proportion, are coming from the unvaccinated.

To me, it's not about infection. It's about overloaded hospital facilities. Sinovac may be sub-par in terms of preventing infection, but the data is saying hospitalisation is far less likely.

If you are in a city which is in rigid lockdown, and you get infected, it's quite possible you survive in your apartment and the case is not even registered.

The staggeringly high numbers of hospitalizations looks to me to be coming from both groups. I agree that proportionally it’s more unvaccinated, but where I live, it’s a fact that the overall number of vaccinated people in hospitals is higher, so no matter how you break it down, there’s simply too many, even if the unvaxxed were taken out of the picture altogether. 
This shouldn’t really be a surprise at all though, because in the city where I live there are only 9 total ICU beds available to begin with. The media gets lots of clicks by reporting the terrifying truth that we are 20% over capacity, but in reality, that only represents two people. 

[Ryan754326]

34 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The news from the CDC is all over the place. It's easy to find it says that being boosted cut your chances of hospitalization by 90%. So if everyone were boosted that would relieve the pressure on the hospital system.

Where I live (Alberta, Canada) there are more vaccinated in hospitals than unvaccinated. I understand that the vaccinated represent a much higher proportion of the population, so this is not unexpected, but at the end of the day it’s still too many, and it doesn’t really take that many to overload the system in the first place. We were overcrowded long before covid came along, and covid disappearing won’t fix that problem. 
 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Ryan754326

[fjb 24]

Back in July of 2021 I considered how Au's covid strategies almost eradicated covid but now if you are looking to help the corona virus infect people, few countries on Earth do it better than Australia now. They have gone from virtually no COVID cases to a massive increases covid case infections which the Au masterminds MAY (based on M Foley's comment) believe this to be a sound strategy now.

 

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?facet=none&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=true&country=~AUS

 

[fjb 24]

27 minutes ago, Ryan754326 said:

(Alberta, Canada)

Seems to be the case in Ontario, (not Cali) Canada as well.

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data#casesByVaccinationStatus

[onthedarkside]

A trolling post based on nationality that also included a diversionary comment on the off-topic issue of obesity has been removed, along with several ensuing replies.

 

[Lacessit]

34 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Back in July of 2021 I considered how Au's covid strategies almost eradicated covid but now if you are looking to help the corona virus infect people, few countries on Earth do it better than Australia now. They have gone from virtually no COVID cases to a massive increases covid case infections which the Au masterminds MAY (based on M Foley's comment) believe this to be a sound strategy now.

 

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?facet=none&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Color+by+test+positivity=true&country=~AUS

 

Cherry-picking from a 7 day moving average, it is still only 2 deaths per million. You'll probably get more frequency from heart attacks. The more important data is how many have "long COVID" from the delta and omicron waves, and how that is distributed between the vaccinated and unvaccinated. It's not only hospital resources that get tied up, it's also rehabilitation services.

 

You'll get no argument from me Australian political leadership is incompetent. IMO many Australians are itching for the next election, when they can hand out retribution to the spin doctors.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, Ryan754326 said:

Where I live (Alberta, Canada) there are more vaccinated in hospitals than unvaccinated. I understand that the vaccinated represent a much higher proportion of the population, so this is not unexpected, but at the end of the day it’s still too many, and it doesn’t really take that many to overload the system in the first place. We were overcrowded long before covid came along, and covid disappearing won’t fix that problem. 
 

 

Are you surprised? Conservative governments worldwide traditionally underfund public health, it is one of their favorite targets.

Fortunately for Australia, every time a Liberal ( sic ) government tries to tinker with cost-cutting, it gets a bloody nose from the voters.

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Dr. David Dowdy, associate professor of epidemiology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said it's difficult to succinctly explain the vaccines’ nuanced effects on transmission.

 

A vaccine might protect you from a passing interaction with someone at a grocery store, but it may not prevent infection from someone you live with and share air with for several hours a day. 

 

“It gets very easy to misconstrue,” Dowdy said. “If someone asks, do vaccines prevent infection, and you have to give a yes or no answer, then the answer is no, they’re not a perfect blockade. But do the vaccines offer some protection against infection? The answer is yes.”

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/21/fact-check-vaccines-limit-serious-illness-and-death-covid-19/9185671002/

 

Paracelsus said the same about 500 years ago. It's why frontline medical workers who are vaccinated get infected, they are more exposed to transmission.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

A number of posters here have been claiming, wrongly it seems, that COVID vaccines in general don't at all prevent Omicron infections. That's NOT what the latest science shows, according to a New York Times report last month.

 

"All vaccines still seem to provide a significant degree of protection against serious illness from Omicron, which is the most crucial goal. But only the Pfizer and Moderna shots, when reinforced by a booster, appear to have initial success at stopping infections, and these vaccines are unavailable in most of the world.

 

And more on this point -- Pfizer vaxed and boosted people are less likely to transmit the virus, including Omicron, than the unvaccinated, from another separate study:

 

"Seventy-eight percent of Danes have been fully vaccinated, while nearly 48% of those have received a third "boosted" shot. More than eight out of ten Danes have received Pfizer-BioNTech's vaccine.

 

The study also found that booster-vaccinated people are less likely to transmit the virus, regardless of the variant, than the unvaccinated."

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/omicron-evades-immunity-better-than-delta-danish-study-finds-2022-01-03/

 

 

 

[Jeffr2]

5 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

Guess you’re not aware that the vaccinated can do exactly the same. 
 

How do you think Omicron spread around the world so fast if nobody can get on a plane without a vaccination and a test?

Very aware of this. But the unvaccinated spread it more. That's been proven.

[Jeffr2]

4 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

If it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen. The vaccines don’t do a good enough job of stopping infection to prevent new mutations from popping up. 

If you’re infected, the virus is replicating inside your body, and mutation is possible. Vaccinated or not. 

You really need a better source for your information.

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, Ryan754326 said:

I absolutely do consider that they’ve given me a good degree of protection, that’s why I’m walking around in Mexico unmasked, wherever I can, without a care in the world what others choose for themselves. 
 

The CCP does have the power to lock down whole cities and compel vaccinations, but considering the staggeringly high case numbers in other more transparent countries with high levels of vaccination, where supposedly superior vaccines were used, I don’t buy the idea that China’s high level of social control and sub-par vaccines have been able to achieve such absurdly low case numbers. 

I know many in Mexico right now. If you're a foreigner and walking around unmasked, you'll be passing many locals off. Show some respect for them.  Mask up and don't spread the virus around.

[fjb 24]

22 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

But the unvaccinated spread it more

In the lab tests maybe, but in the real world setting; comparing Au. to R-SA where Australia's population, the rate of double vaccinated is 3 X that of RSA and the booster rate is 30 X that of RSA, BUT, (and this goes to your irrelevant/meaningless talking point)...Australia currently has a covid infection rate 50 times more than of the daily covid infections in RSA.

 

 

Its similar rates analogy for UK/USA/Europe, (weblink) etc

But sure, the vaccine is supposed to save lives, (you are going to say this). But, in NSW Au, recent data shows another real world outcome: 22 of the 34 deaths were in fully vaccinated people. *refer to Table 6-photo below and this  weblink

I hope for everyone who fears covid that the 2nd generation vaccines are better than the current lot. You'll have to wait until sometime in 2023 to find out though.

 

[Scott]

A post from an unapproved source has been reported and removed.

 

[Lacessit]

20 hours ago, fjb 24 said:

In the lab tests maybe, but in the real world setting; comparing Au. to R-SA where Australia's population, the rate of double vaccinated is 3 X that of RSA and the booster rate is 30 X that of RSA, BUT, (and this goes to your irrelevant/meaningless talking point)...Australia currently has a covid infection rate 50 times more than of the daily covid infections in RSA.

 

Its similar rates analogy for UK/USA/Europe, (weblink) etc

But sure, the vaccine is supposed to save lives, (you are going to say this). But, in NSW Au, recent data shows another real world outcome: 22 of the 34 deaths were in fully vaccinated people. *refer to Table 6-photo below and this  weblink

I hope for everyone who fears covid that the 2nd generation vaccines are better than the current lot. You'll have to wait until sometime in 2023 to find out though.

 

?

?

You are quoting a lot of official figures for NSW and Australia. I don't see any from RSA, apart from your assertions. How do we know these are accurate, and the RSA bureaucracy is on top of the recording of infections?

[fjb 24]

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

know these are accurate,

Burden of proof rests entirely in your hands now, and you can make your prima facia case by proving the data reported by Oxford is inaccurate or false, and until such time you can, you have no basis to dispute it.

[Lacessit]

27 minutes ago, fjb 24 said:

Burden of proof rests entirely in your hands now, and you can make your prima facia case by proving the data reported by Oxford is inaccurate or false, and until such time you can, you have no basis to dispute it.

You are showing graphs from John Hopkins University, based in Baltimore, USA. How do they know what the RSA bureaucracy tells them is accurate?

South Africa has had 3.58 million cases, 93,949 deaths. Australia has had 2.13 million cases, 3043 deaths.

South Africa is less than 30% fully vaccinated, Australia is 80%. Draw your own conclusions.

[fjb 24]

17 hours ago, Lacessit said:

South Africa is less than 30% fully vaccinated, Australia is 80%.

and it has 50 times the covid infection rate of SA. That's it, full stop. Deal with it how u see fit. If you don't like or want to accept the data that's your business.

 

Unless you have some other data sources, and want to share them here, do so.

.

Data sources:

Source weblink

RSA data source weblink

[Ryan754326]

22 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

I know many in Mexico right now. If you're a foreigner and walking around unmasked, you'll be passing many locals off. Show some respect for them.  Mask up and don't spread the virus around.

I wear my mask where it’s required.
The other day I was on a bus, wearing my mask, when I looked around and realized I was one of very few doing so, so I took it off, and nobody gave me any funny looks. 

 

Very few people are wearing masks while walking around outside in the sun. Why would they? 

 

Most of the bigger, more expensive restaurants require you to have a mask on when you enter their building, but obviously you can take it off when you eat. Talk about a pointless exercise, especially in a closed, air conditioned building. That bit is just a joke, and shows that masks have become more of an emotional security blanket or public statement for most people, rather than something they actually attempt to use properly. 

The virus is going to spread regardless of what I do or how many masks I wear. If people don’t want to catch it, they should avoid hanging out in busy areas where people are eating, drinking, and generally having a good time together.

[Ryan754326]

7 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Are you surprised? Conservative governments worldwide traditionally underfund public health, it is one of their favorite targets.

Fortunately for Australia, every time a Liberal ( sic ) government tries to tinker with cost-cutting, it gets a bloody nose from the voters.

It’s no different in my home province of BC, right next door, or in Ontario. I don’t remember either of those provinces having a conservative government in my lifetime. 
Underfunding health care has been a problem in pretty well all of Canada for a long time, regardless of which color we choose to run things for a few years at a time. The taxes never seem to get any lower though.