5 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Variants are created, in most cases, from…. Genetic variation within populations… you know, I have blonde hair, she has red hair tryin to splain this as I would to a 3 year old bc of the question I got

 

That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim. 
 

When the virus’s genetic variation is now acting upon a vaccinated population, only certain strains can make it (assuming the vaccine is actually doing its job). These strains then become much much more prominent. When before this strain was only 1% of the population, now it’s 50%and rising, because of the induced treatments (ie vaccines). 
 

That’s how this works. And you see, I do t need bogus links to “back” me, because I actually understand stuff. 
 

The problem is, you won’t hear whati just wrote on the 8 o’clock news. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth, you see how that works?

Dunning-Krueger comes to mind.

 

 

And the thing to note is, even though I have basically proven to any intelligent person vaccines cause the strains we are seeing, I don’t go around telling people not to vax. So, the situation is actually the reverse of what most think, and it’s the unvaxxed suffering at the “selfishness” (as they put it, not me) of the vaxxed. But I don’t complain, because I am a rational human being, and realize people have choice. And I also, of course, realize that in many cases it is actually a very good decision to vax, esp for high risk etc. you don’t get the same sort of logic on the other side of the argument, thatis all emotionally based swill 

Just now, utalkin2me said:

And the thing to note is, even though I have basically proven to any intelligent person vaccines cause the strains we are seeing, I don’t go around telling people not to vax. So, the situation is actually the reverse of what most think, and it’s the unvaxxed suffering at the “selfishness” (as they put it, not me) of the vaxxed. But I don’t complain, because I am a rational human being, and realize people have choice

And now circular logic.

 

 

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And now circular logic.

 

 

Nice come backs bro. I commend you, you are fighting a no win fight so I agree there is not much to say. 

2 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Nice come backs bro. I commend you, you are fighting a no win fight so I agree there is not much to say. 

Indeed arguing with you is a no win as fools cant be reasoned with. Its like having an argument with a religious person a sect member. Totally brainwashed. If you were so right your arguments would be supported by science. 

23 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Variants are created, in most cases, from…. Genetic variation within populations… you know, I have blonde hair, she has red hair tryin to splain this as I would to a 3 year old bc of the question I got

 

That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim. 
 

When the virus’s genetic variation is now acting upon a vaccinated population, only certain strains can make it (assuming the vaccine is actually doing its job). These strains then become much much more prominent. When before this strain was only 1% of the population, now it’s 50%and rising, because of the induced treatments (ie vaccines). 
 

That’s how this works. And you see, I do t need bogus links to “back” me, because I actually understand stuff. 
 

The problem is, you won’t hear whati just wrote on the 8 o’clock news. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth, you see how that works?

Clearly you don't understand how the rise of mutant variants works at all. For one thing, if a mutant variant is more transmissible it's inevitable that it will arise at the expense of other variants. But the variants are not created in the first place because of vaccinations. And while a vaccination may somewhat accelerate the rise of a mutant in a vaccinated population, (the more transmissible a variant is, the less the effect of vaccination) vaccination is utterly irrelevant to those populations which are unvaccinated. And currently, that's most of the world. In other words, your comments betray a profound lack of understanding of evolution and basic arithmetic..

6 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Forgive me gentleman, I’m doing my laundry.

 

I actually had my laundry make a couple of more compelling arguments than I see here. 
 

Anyone wanna answer why the vax is not mandated if it’s so “safe and effective”. You know, mandated like all other proven (over time) safe and effective vaccines. Maybe someone can ping me when someone does in fact take a shot at this. 
 

Think about it. The vaccines have ALL THE SUPPORT. From government, from big pharma, from all the msm. Why on earth wouldn’t they mandate it? They have all the power and influence. There must be a reason or two! 

Actually, your question is answered easily enough: Most countries don't mandate vaccinations unequivocally. What alternative universe do you hail from?

But it's good to see you've apparently abandoned your nonsense claim that vaccinations are responsible for the rise of the Omicron variant.

 

3 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

“Safe and effective” vaccines are mandated. You have a bunch of them in you right now. Ones that are not mandated ain’t so safe, they must not be so effective. At least not yet. Guinea pig comes to mind. But hey, if that don’t make you think nothing will. 

Really? Which vaccines would those be? And don't vaccination rules vary by nation? So how would you even know that I have mandated vaccines inside of me?

And I see that you have no answer for the fact that we know of several viral pathogens that result in severe, even fatal latent long term effects. How many latent long term effects are known for vaccines? I'll make it easy for you. That number is 0. So what's more likely? That covid-19 will result in latent long term effects or the current covid vaccines?

And I see you still have no defense for your ridiculous claim that vaccination is responsible for the rise of Omicron.

28 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

“Safe and effective” vaccines are mandated. You have a bunch of them in you right now. Ones that are not mandated ain’t so safe, they must not be so effective.

In the US I thought this was true until I moved to Alaska.  Many parents have to homeschool their children as they are not vaccinated.  Public school mandate that you are vaccinated, but as I said, many parents I know of homeschool as they do not want their children vaccinated.  Never heard of that when I was attending public schools in Arizona as a child, but it is true.  Some parents were native americans, some were religious and claimed it was against their religion 

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO not so much believing they know more, but more not trusting scientists. IMO doesn't matter how long they studied, if they are dependent on grants from people or institutions that require a certain outcome.

Unless they are self funded, they are beholden to those that pay them.

 

'Follow The Money'

57 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Forgive me gentleman, I’m doing my laundry.

 

I actually had my laundry make a couple of more compelling arguments than I see here. 
 

Anyone wanna answer why the vax is not mandated if it’s so “safe and effective”. You know, mandated like all other proven (over time) safe and effective vaccines. Maybe someone can ping me when someone does in fact take a shot at this. 
 

Think about it. The vaccines have ALL THE SUPPORT. From government, from big pharma, from all the msm. Why on earth wouldn’t they mandate it? They have all the power and influence. There must be a reason or two! 

Now you give us a double non sequitur.

 

That some safe and effective vaccines have been mandated is not a logical argument that a safe and effective vaccines must be mandated nor is the observation that a vaccine is not mandated evidence that it is not safe and effective.

 

I trust are doing a better job with your laundry.

53 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

Thaivisa: when the resident trolls get out-trolled

 

3 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

After you state something it’s good to look at the world and see if it makes sense. In your guys’ case “Oh, my positions is in agreement with big pharma and government.” 
 

It’s not too big a stretch to see who is the party being manipulated here. 

1 hour ago, utalkin2me said:

And the thing to note is, even though I have basically proven to any intelligent person vaccines cause the strains we are seeing, I don’t go around telling people not to vax. So, the situation is actually the reverse of what most think, and it’s the unvaxxed suffering at the “selfishness” (as they put it, not me) of the vaxxed. But I don’t complain, because I am a rational human being, and realize people have choice. And I also, of course, realize that in many cases it is actually a very good decision to vax, esp for high risk etc. you don’t get the same sort of logic on the other side of the argument, thatis all emotionally based swill 

Consistently when you get challenged on your facts, instead of offering evidence in response, you make these kinds of statements.

The fact is, as demonstrated by your posts, that you don't even understand how generic selection, natural and otherwise, works.

You made a false statement about vaccine mandates

And you claim to have "basically proven to intelligent people vaccines cause the strains we are seeing, ". I can't speak to the intelligence of people you claim to have convinced, but, if in fact they were convinced by your blatantly false reasoning, it can only be because they are ignorant of the basic principles of evolution and population genetics.

5 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

I will try this one more time, gotta assume there may actually be some curious, genuine folks in here.

 

Virus populations have genetic variation. When you introduce vaccines, much of the variation is eliminated, and certain strains, sometimes recently mutated, become more prevalent. This is how the strains we speak of arise. 
 

It’s funny isn’t it, when what you say actually makes perfect sense and all the facts line up with it. Because what do we see? We see vaccinated individuals being infected at a much higher rate than we expected. That’s exactly what the model I proposed above would predict. Ie decreasing vaccine efficacy… again, exactly what we see. Why? Because the strains that were not killed off by the vax are the ones surviving. If you don’t get it at this point you never will I suppose. But non vaxed don’t cause strains. That’s preposterous. 

If your point had any validity, that would mean that in unvaccinated populations, there would have been no rise in frequency of variants such as Delta and Omicron. This is not the case.

You clearly are confusing genetic variability with genetic novelty (i.e. mutations). Yes, it is possible to select  naturally or purposely for existing variations within a population. But that doesn't address the question of mutations and transmissiblity. Omicron is a mutation. Which means it's novel. Which means it didn't exist until recently.  It's increased transmissiblity is what is fueling its rise, not vaccinations The same as in the case of Delta, which arose in a country that was largely unvaccinated at the time.  You've got nothing.

27 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

That is the funniest part in all this. All the stuff I have said all along has been coming true. Namely, if you lockdown, for example, you’re gonna be about as affected in the long term as the country that doesn’t lockdown. Sweden for example, why don’t they top the death list? I don’t get it, he country should be in utter ruin. But what we actually see is infection waves roll through the country, just like they do through any country that locked down. 
 

It really does evade me though how people can hold positions, and the data rolls in, positions clearly not validated (eg Sweden not in utter ruin as many claimed it would be).

 

And now still further, you have uk completely forgoing any and all Covid restrictions, and leaving it to individual choice as to how to best protect oneself. And we will see how the data plays out in the coming months. I know some of us will be moved and or swayed by it, but as the point of this post suggests, many will not, for some reason or another. It’s like the data in the real world means nothing, things like kids going to school unmaked in Sweden with zero Ill consequences, completely ignored lol 

As any epidemiolgist will tell you, you need to compare similar populations. So, tell us, how did Sweden's mortality compare to its neighbors to the east, west, and south? Namely Finland, Norway, and Denmark? They imposed very strict restrictions. Here's your answer

 

 

 

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/sweden

On 1/20/2022 at 11:16 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Lets see when the stats come in about poor countries that couldn't vaccinate as many as the rich west. Then we really will see if vaccine made a difference.

Stats are in. The jab has saved millions of lives and kept millions more from the hospital. Impossible to deny this. Though some try. Sadly.

36 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

It’s funny isn’t it, when what you say actually makes perfect sense and all the facts line up with it. Because what do we see? We see vaccinated individuals being infected at a much higher rate than we expected. That’s exactly what the model I proposed above would predict. Ie decreasing vaccine efficacy… again, exactly what we see. Why? Because the strains that were not killed off by the vax are the ones surviving. If you don’t get it at this point you never will I suppose. But non vaxed don’t cause strains. That’s preposterous. 

But all the facts don't "line up with it". Your notion doesn't explain the rise of the Delta and Omicron variants in unvaccinated populations. It's all about mutations and transmissibilty, 2 factors that don't feature at all in your alleged explanation.

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO not so much believing they know more, but more not trusting scientists. IMO doesn't matter how long they studied, if they are dependent on grants from people or institutions that require a certain outcome.

Unless they are self funded, they are beholden to those that pay them.

 

Ridiculous. But shows why we're still battling this virus. Those who fail to trust science

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Excellent post, but expect the usual anti replies.

Terrible post and pure misinformation.

A post containing misinformation as well as replies have been removed.

2 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

Variants are created, in most cases, from…. Genetic variation within populations… you know, I have blonde hair, she has red hair tryin to splain this as I would to a 3 year old bc of the question I got

 

That genetic variation within the population then get “acted upon” by our medicines. Nothing unnatural happens without vaccines or medicines, that’s absurd to claim. 
 

When the virus’s genetic variation is now acting upon a vaccinated population, only certain strains can make it (assuming the vaccine is actually doing its job). These strains then become much much more prominent. When before this strain was only 1% of the population, now it’s 50%and rising, because of the induced treatments (ie vaccines). 
 

That’s how this works. And you see, I do t need bogus links to “back” me, because I actually understand stuff. 
 

The problem is, you won’t hear whati just wrote on the 8 o’clock news. But that doesn’t mean it’s not the truth, you see how that works?

Very entertaining fiction.  I do love the sincerity with which you claim to understand genetics and mutations.

10 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

Very entertaining fiction.  I do love the sincerity with which you claim to understand genetics and mutations.

Actually he doesn't seem to understand at all the role that mutations play in the evolution of the virus. Doesn't even mention them. He apparently believes that the more transmissible variants were there all along but somehow selected for by vaccination. He apparently believes that Mendelian rules are all that's needed to understand evolution. He is seriously confused.

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Isn't selective reasoning wonderful? One gets to post all sorts of things that are easily refuted, but few bother to do so.

It's good to see a couple of posters standing up to the usual suspects.

Speaking of standing up, I understand you are or were a male nurse. You have colleagues worldwide who are under the pump, dealing with a pandemic, exhausted and stressed. They are that way because the majority of their patients crowding out non-Covid patients are unvaccinated idiots. Obviously, you don't feel any solidarity with the profession you have chosen.

3 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

The problem with this reasoning is that it does not take into account age and health (nor does the bmj article referred to above). If I am in the unvaccinated group but young and fit, I am not 6 times more likely to end up in hospital than a vaccinated 60-year old diabetic. It is a fallacious argument.

You have as much chance of repealing the laws of probability as you have of overturning the laws of thermodynamics or nullifying gravity. Have at it.

It is not about you. It's about the selfish turds who won't get vaccinated and are 6 times more likely to tie up stretched hospital resources. Even politicians understand that, and they are not the sharpest tools in the drawer.

Fallacies arise from invalid assumptions. I am stating fact, sorry if that inconveniences you.

Please show me a credible link that demonstrates there is ANY age cohort where the PROBABILITY of a vaccinated person requiring hospitalisation is greater than someone who is unvaccinated.

13 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

I will try this one more time, gotta assume there may actually be some curious, genuine folks in here.

 

Virus populations have genetic variation. When you introduce vaccines, much of the variation is eliminated, and certain strains, sometimes recently mutated, become more prevalent. This is how the strains we speak of arise. 
 

It’s funny isn’t it, when what you say actually makes perfect sense and all the facts line up with it. Because what do we see? We see vaccinated individuals being infected at a much higher rate than we expected. That’s exactly what the model I proposed above would predict. Ie decreasing vaccine efficacy… again, exactly what we see. Why? Because the strains that were not killed off by the vax are the ones surviving. If you don’t get it at this point you never will I suppose.

Vaccinations don't prevent one getting infected, I am living proof. What they do is prevent one getting seriously ill. Your concept of the strains being killed off by the vax is an entirely false premise. They may be supplanted by more infectious strains, that's what viruses do.

 

Omicron has supplanted delta, but that certainly does not mean delta is extinguished.

 

Viruses mutate, and vaccinations have to keep up with them. That's what happens with flu, just about every year flu vaccines are modified.

 

The big difference is that flu is usually over in two weeks, vaccine or no vaccine. COVID is far more dangerous than that for some.

 

 

Misleading troll posts and twitter stuff have been removed.

 

18) Social Media content is acceptable in most social forums. However, in factual areas such as news, current affairs and health topics, it cannot be used unless it is from a credible news media source or government agency, and must include a weblink to the original source.

At the end of any discussion like this, the last word always is and should be “each man decides for himself”. 
 

The real problem in this “debate” is that one set of people want to decide for another set what to do with their lives. 
 

As I keep saying, if you ain’t convinced by those words, you will never be. Because deciding on how to live one’s life should be left up to no one but the person in question. The fact that it is even discussed is a farce and indicative of where societies have headed. Societies’ collective heads have been jammed up a rectum.

1 minute ago, utalkin2me said:

At the end of any discussion like this, the last word always is and should be “each man decides for himself”. 
 

The real problem in this “debate” is that one set of people want to decide for another set what to do with their lives. 
 

Isn't that called "government"? I think you are simply libertarian and anti government?

6 minutes ago, transam said:

Millions didn't get Covid, but millions did and will, BUT, we all know there are folk like you out there, and many like you ended up in a box, sadly if you do, you won't be able to tell us how wrong you were.....????................????

 

PS. Many are afraid of needles, don't feel down about it.....????

If that is your opinion you only have one thing to do. Vaccinate. And once you do that’s it. Your participation ends. You don’t get to vax other people. 
 

You know a very interesting question that none of you have considered yet, is what if you are wrong. What if the vaccine ends up having very serious, long term effects. The exercise in answering that question is a good one, because then you can better understand why another (healthy) human being may not want to wake up one day with one of these effects. 

8 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

If that is your opinion you only have one thing to do. Vaccinate. And once you do that’s it. Your participation ends. You don’t get to vax other people. 
 

You know a very interesting question that none of you have considered yet, is what if you are wrong. What if the vaccine ends up having very serious, long term effects. The exercise in answering that question is a good one, because then you can better understand why another (healthy) human being may not want to wake up one day with one of these effects. 

Do you take Viagra, be honest now, because if you do, your theory has been buried....?   ????....????

I love how nobody brings up in these parts, there is not even a thread on it, that the cdc stated natural immunity was more effective that being vaxxed. And the cdc is a pro vax govt organization. That should really tip you off.  Not to mention this was “misinformation” about a week ago lol
 

But carryon, keep discussing your procured Covid stats, and avoid all the ones like the uk going to a 0 Covid intervention policy. Just bury that head a little deeper at a time.