Are we just going to have to live with unvaccinated people across Thailand?

[FarFlungFalang]

8 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Most deaths occurred pre vaccine. So those stats are misleading.

You mean when everyone was a virus transmitting unvaccinated evil doer?I think it's time we blame the virus and not people, science is about asking questions and searching for the answers to those questions, it's not about calling people names and labelling them and blaming them.Like you say stats, although not misinformation per se can be used to misinform. 

[ozimoron]

4 hours ago, Aussie999 said:

What difference, to a business owner, does it make, if they have vaccinated, and unvaccinated, customers, remember, these same unvaccinated travel, on crowed buses, on crowded trains, etc... also fact, vaccinated people can also pass on the virus.

You can't transmit the virus if you're not infected. The vaccines are EXTREMELY good at preventing infection form the most dangerous variant. It is rare to have  breakthrough infection from delta and the vaccines do reduce infection rates from omicron.

 

3 hours ago, ThLT said:

Here is the conclusion of the Lancet study:

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00690-3/fulltext

 

I've been saying for the past few pages that vaccines are effective at protecting health, but ineffective at reducing transmission—with you somehow repeatedly denying this is the case. Clearly, you're incorrect.

 

Don't spread misinformation. Vaccines reduce infection. Your post implies that they do nothing.

 

3 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

It has been demonstrated that covid vaccines wane which is why boosters are recommended, therefore how do people know what each person's level of protection is?In some places a booster has been mandated for people to work in government employment and essential service jobs.In Australia there have been more deaths from Omicron in the past couple of months than the entire previous 2 years of the pandemic yet we see no lockdowns to protect the vulnerable so it's not only individuals that have no regard for the vulnerable but we now have governments showing the same disregard for protecting the vulnerable, why is that?In fact Australia is opening up more and more when the situation is at its most dire.Previously people's live were more important than the economy but that seems to have changed and people have to learn to live and die with covid!Vaccinated people are catching and spreading covid causing people to get sick and die so really vaccinated people should have similar restrictions put on them for the same reasons you state that unvaccinated people should have restrictions placed on them.Like vaccines the argument for vaccine mandates is waning and will eventually be replaced with common sense.Vaccines should be encouraged because they work (they prevent death and serious illness) they should not be mandated because they don't work (they don't stop infections and the spread of the virus) which is what is happening now. 

Don't spread misinformation. Vaccines reduce infection. Your post implies that they do nothing.

 

1 hour ago, ThLT said:

You have no point. ???? Every single case of a vaccinated person transmitting COVID will be due to a breakthrough infection. There can be no transmission from a vaccinated person without a breakthrough infection, by definition. To say the CDC director meant something else is... disingenuous and not valid. 

 

And, exactly, not only do vaccines not prevent transmission, like the CDC director says, but vaccines also don't effectively protect against getting infected, even if you're vaccinated (i.e. breakthrough infection). You're only strengthening my point. ????

 

Don't spread misinformation. Vaccines reduce infection. Your post implies that they do nothing.

 

This repetitive "vaccines don't stop infection and transmission" garbage is too prevalent lately. It is clearly coming from some far right misinformation talking point. It is nonsensical, especially in regard to the delta variety. Those who spruik this trash rely on a pedantic use of the word stop to mean that if something is not 100% effective then it is logically ineffective. Totally disingenuous and made with intent to deceive.

Edited February 6, 2022 by ozimoron

[ThLT]

33 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The vaccines are EXTREMELY good at preventing infection form the most dangerous variant. It is rare to have  breakthrough infection from delta and the vaccines do reduce infection rates from omicron.

Yeah, "EXTREMELY good at preventing breakthrough infection." ???? Might want to look at the graphs above.

 

Portugal is 89% fully vaccinated, yet has one of the world's highest daily number of new cases.

 

 

33 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Don't spread misinformation. Vaccines reduce infection. Your post implies that they do nothing.

Ha. I keep providing proof, with Lancet studies, direct quotes from the CDC, stats from countries. The only thing you do is say your own personal opinions, with grammatical errors, and nothing else to support your claims. Just opinions and empty words.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by ThLT

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, ThLT said:

Yeah, "EXTREMELY good at preventing breakthrough infection." ???? Might want to look at the graphs above. Portugal is 89% fully vaccinated, yet has one of the world's highest daily number of new cases.

 

Ha. I keep providing proof, with Lancet studies, direct quotes from the CDC, stats from countries. The only thing you do is say your own personal opinions, with grammatical errors, and nothing else to support your claims. Just opinions and empty words.

 

You forgot to read the delta bit. Portugal would have a much higher rate of infections but for the vaccines, like everywhere else. The reason that infections are increasing is because omicron is far more infectious. No rational person could conclude that the vaccines are not significantly reducing infections of all variants and delta in particular. Delta is the most dangerous variety and is quite prevalent.

[ThLT]

32 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The reason that infections are increasing is because omicron is far more infectious. No rational person could conclude that the vaccines are not significantly reducing infections of all variants and delta in particular. Delta is the most dangerous variety and is quite prevalent.

You forgot to take into consideration that 90-100% of new cases are now the Omicron variant. Are you actually going to make a point about a variant that almost doesn't exist anymore? Do you want to also make claims about the Alpha variant as well, while you're at it?

 

When I was saying the vaccines are ineffective at preventing transmission, that means the current and most prevelant variant—Omicron.

 

32 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Delta is the most dangerous variety and is quite prevalent.

No, you're completely making stuff up out of thin air.

 

Omicron makes up 95% of sequenced Covid cases in U.S. as infections hit pandemic record

 

As for Portugal, in December 2021, Portugal had a confirmed 75% of cases being Omicron. Here is the graph—with a 90% Omicron projection by December 30th:

 

32 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The reason that infections are increasing is because omicron is far more infectious.

And? Vaccines—and for example a country that is 89% fully vaccinated but still has enourmous amounts of infections—are still not very effective at preventing the transmission. Which is my point. 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by ThLT

[Aussie999]

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The business owner can't control what goes on outside of his own premises but he can control what goes on inside. A private International school for instance can insist its teachers and pupils are vaccinated. A private hospital can insist on its staff being vaccinated, both of which are privately owned businesses.

That's NOT my point.

[Aussie999]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

You can't transmit the virus if you're not infected. The vaccines are EXTREMELY good at preventing infection form the most dangerous variant. It is rare to have  breakthrough infection from delta and the vaccines do reduce infection rates from omicron.

 

Don't spread misinformation. Vaccines reduce infection. Your post implies that they do nothing.

 

Don't spread misinformation. Vaccines reduce infection. Your post implies that they do nothing.

 

Don't spread misinformation. Vaccines reduce infection. Your post implies that they do nothing.

 

This repetitive "vaccines don't stop infection and transmission" garbage is too prevalent lately. It is clearly coming from some far right misinformation talking point. It is nonsensical, especially in regard to the delta variety. Those who spruik this trash rely on a pedantic use of the word stop to mean that if something is not 100% effective then it is logically ineffective. Totally disingenuous and made with intent to deceive.

Quote"You can't transmit the virus if you're not infected. The vaccines are EXTREMELY good at preventing infection form the most dangerous variant. It is rare to have  breakthrough infection from delta and the vaccines do reduce infection rates from omicron," unquote, where did I say anything about transmitting the virus, if you are not infected.. you made that up.. I did say even if vaccinated, you can still pass it on... vaccination does NOT stop you getting the virus, it simply improves your immune system's chances of fighting it, if you contract it, you can still pass it on.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Aussie999

[ozimoron]

21 minutes ago, ThLT said:

You forgot to take into consideration that 90-100% of new cases are now the Omicron variant. Are you actually going to make a point about a variant that almost doesn't exist anymore? Do you want to also make claims about the Alpha variant as well, while you're at it?

 

When I was saying the vaccines are ineffective at preventing transmission, that means the current and most prevelant variant—Omicron.

 

No, you're completely making stuff up out of thin air.

 

Omicron makes up 95% of sequenced Covid cases in U.S. as infections hit pandemic record

 

As for Portugal, in December 2021, Portugal had a confirmed 75% of cases being Omicron. Here is the graph—with a 90% Omicron projection by December 30th:

 

And? Vaccines—and for example a country that is 89% fully vaccinated but still has enourmous amounts of infections—are still not very effective at preventing the transmission. Which is my point. 

 

5% is still quite prevalent. Most people would not ignore that level of risk. Delta is highly dangerous without vaccination and both variants cause long covid issues.

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

Quote"You can't transmit the virus if you're not infected. The vaccines are EXTREMELY good at preventing infection form the most dangerous variant. It is rare to have  breakthrough infection from delta and the vaccines do reduce infection rates from omicron," unquote, where did I say anything about transmitting the virus, if you are not infected.. you made that up.. I did say even if vaccinated, you can still pass it on... vaccination does NOT stop you getting the virus, it simply improves your immune systems chances of fighting it, if you contract it, you can still pass it on.

"vaccination does NOT stop you getting the virus, it simply" are merely weasel words intended to imply that vaccines are useless. This is deceit.

[Aussie999]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

"vaccination does NOT stop you getting the virus, it simply" are merely weasel words intended to imply that vaccines are useless. This is deceit.

No where did I even hint at that... you simply made it up.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

No where did I even hint at that... you simply made it up.

Your words speak for themselves. They reveal an intent to convey misinformation by obfuscation. It is lying by omission.

Edited February 6, 2022 by ozimoron

[Aussie999]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Your words speak for themselves. They reveal an intent to convey misinformation by obfuscation. It is lying by omission.

I can't help how you choose to interpret what's not there, that is something, for you, to deal with, as far as I'm concerned, our discussion is over. Best you do some research, it's not hard.
Have a nice day.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Aussie999

[ThLT]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

5% is still quite prevalent.

"5% is still quite prevalent"? ????  As opposed to what... 95%? ????

When you went to school, were you happy if you got 5% on an exam? ????

 

Do you even know the definition of the word "prevalent"? As in, prevails, majority, main, dominant, highest amount? 5% is definitely not prevalent. ???? 

 

 

[ThLT]

3 hours ago, heybruce said:

She says that vaccinated people who have a break through infection can infect others.  I don't think anyone has ever disputed that.  She never said vaccinations don't reduce infections.

 

"So if you're going home to somebody who has not been vaccinated, somebody who can't get vaccinated... I would suggest you wear a mask in a public indoor setting," Walensky stated."

I know... she didn't say that vaccinations don't reduce infections. What the director of the CDC director did say is:

 

Quote

"Our vaccines are working exceptionally well. They continue to work well for Delta with regard to severe illness and death. They prevent it. But what they can’t do anymore is prevent transmission."

And breakthrough infection or not, your point is completely moot. The only possibility of transmitting the virus while vaccinated... is, by definition, you guessed it, if you are vaccinated. If you aren't vaccinated, the vaccine obviously can't protect you from transmitting the virus, can it? ???? 

You'll probably repeat the same completely illogical argument again, though: ???? "What the CDC director was talking about is breakthrough infections of vaccinated people." Yeah, exactly. 

 

I'll take my guidance from the CDC rather than from some random guy named "heybruce" on an Internet forum. Thanks.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by ThLT

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, ThLT said:

"5% is still quite prevalent"? ????  As opposed to what... 95%? ????

When you went to school, were you happy if you got 5% on an exam? ????

 

Do you even know the definition of the word "prevalent"? As in, prevails, majority, main, dominant, highest amount? 5% is definitely not prevalent. ???? 

 

 

It doesn't mean that at all. It means widespread.

[ThLT]

I'm pro-vaccine, but the level of mental gymnastics some authoritarian pro-vaccine people make is astounding.

[Bkk Brian]

32 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

That's NOT my point.

Its NOT? So what was the point you were making?

[Aussie999]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Its NOT? So what was the point you were making?

It's very simple, hope you can understand, my point is, what difference does it make, if the business owner, allows both vaccinated, and unvaccinated, customers into the premises.. fact it, it makes no difference, he could, depending on the law, as we live in different countries, insist his employees are vaccinated, as this would reduce any sick time off, but as for customers... no, why worry, the unvaccinated have made their choice, the vaccinated have some protection.... these very same people could travel on crowded buses, trains etc. I hope this helps you understand. Oh, and yes, I have had 3 jabs, so am NOT antivax.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The well-respected Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation in the U.S. has done a summary of currently known info on vaccine effectiveness against various variants and their prevention capabilities, including the various vaccines' ability to prevent Omicron infections.

 

I've highlighted the Omicron vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection data in the red line box. Data for the main three western vaccines available in Thailand is underlined in RED. Data for the two Chinese vaccines available in Thailand is underlined in BLUE.  Not surprisingly, as they have throughout the pandemic in VE, Moderna and Pfizer have the best results.

 

See the IHME chart below, with my annotations:

 

 

https://www.healthdata.org/covid/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-summary

 

So, as numerous other previously posted data have shown, the current vaccines DO have varying abilities to PREVENT Omicron infections -- not 100%, but not zero either. Moderna and Pfizer closing in on almost reducing Omicron infections by half, according to the IHME summary of available data.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The well-respected Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation in the U.S. has done a summary of currently known info on vaccine effectiveness against various variants and their prevention capabilities, including the various vaccines' ability to prevent Omicron infections.

 

I've highlighted the Omicron vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection data in the red line box. Data for the main three western vaccines available in Thailand is underlined in RED. Data for the two Chinese vaccines available in Thailand is underlined in BLUE.  Not surprisingly, as they have throughout the pandemic in VE, Moderna and Pfizer have the best results.

 

See the IHME chart below, with my annotations:

 

 

https://www.healthdata.org/covid/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-summary

 

So based on that data we can safely suggest that anyone who says that vaccines don't prevent infection (and by extension, transmission) is just lying and spreading misinformation if they don't at least qualify their statement to acknowledge the significant efficacy that these vaccines have.

Edited February 6, 2022 by ozimoron

[konaboy]

yes

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, Aussie999 said:

It's very simple, hope you can understand, my point is, what difference does it make, if the business owner, allows both vaccinated, and unvaccinated, customers into the premises.. fact it, it makes no difference, he could, depending on the law, as we live in different countries, insist his employees are vaccinated, as this would reduce any sick time off, but as for customers... no, why worry, the unvaccinated have made their choice, the vaccinated have some protection.... these very same people could travel on crowded buses, trains etc. I hope this helps you understand. Oh, and yes, I have had 3 jabs, so am NOT antivax.

 

Yes ok, I thought that is what your point was and thats why I responded. 

 

Like I said, a business owner cannot control what anyone does outside of his premises but he can take control within his domain. Rather like a car driver can insist that a passenger wears their seat belt even if that passenger normally jumps in the back of a truck at other times.

 

Hotel business owners in Thailand  routinely ask for vaccination proof before accepting a booking. My wife is a business owner and deleted an email this morning from a guy from the US who wanted to come to Thailand and rent one of our villas for a couple of weeks. However he stated he refused to be vaccinated and asked her the best method for entering the country.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

So based on that data we can safely suggest that anyone who says that vaccines don't prevent infection (and by extension, transmission) is just lying and spreading misinformation if they don't at least qualify their statement to acknowledge the significant efficacy that these vaccines have.

 

There's been an ongoing war of semantics going on here as regards to the term "prevent."

 

Anti vax or vaccine skeptics seem to view it as an all or nothing proposition, as in anything less than 100% isn't "preventing."  But I think a reasonable person would recognize that every single time a vaccine prevents someone from becoming infected, that's a level of "prevention."

 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

There's been an ongoing war of semantics going on here as regards to the term "prevent."

 

Anti vax or vaccine skeptics seem to view it as an all or nothing proposition, as in anything less than 100% isn't "preventing."  But I think a reasonable person would recognize that every single time a vaccine prevents someone from becoming infected, that's a level of "prevention."

 

and it also stopped that person from getting infected. Just while we are on the subject of semantics.

 

I also see that those who wish to die on the hill of anti vax are also frequently vaccinated themselves which screams politics.

[ozimoron]

Long COVID affects adults of all ages as well as children. Research shows it is more prevalent among those who were hospitalized, but also strikes a significant portion who weren’t.

 

https://apnews.com/article/long-covid-omicron-research-45986f5b42e47e656d5b385bd51b2bb2

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Also, the British Heart Foundation has had a long running info page summarizing data on vaccine effectiveness (various vaccines and various variants, including Omicron). Here's their current version relating to Omicron (keeping in mind, their context is that of Omicron vs western vaccines like Moderna, Pfizer, AZ...):

 

"Are the vaccines effective against Omicron?

There is some evidence that Omicron is able to evade vaccines more easily than previous variants. But vaccination will still reduce your risk of getting Omicron, and in particular of becoming seriously ill. It’s more important than ever to have a booster if you are eligible, as two doses alone may not be effective.

 

UK figures published by the UKHSA suggest that a booster dose reduces the risk of hospitalisation due to Omicron by 92 per cent. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) similarly said that a booster was 90 per cent effective at preventing hospitalisation from Omicron. This is a very high level of protection from serious illness (although it’s possible that this level of protection could fall if it has been several months or more since your booster.)"

 

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/covid-variant#OMIvax

Edited February 6, 2022 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Also, the British Heart Foundation has had a long running info page summarizing data on vaccine effectiveness (various vaccines and various variants, including Omicron). Here's their current version relating to Omicron (keeping in mind, their context is that of Omicron vs western vaccines like Moderna, Pfizer, AZ...):

 

"Are the vaccines effective against Omicron?

There is some evidence that Omicron is able to evade vaccines more easily than previous variants. But vaccination will still reduce your risk of getting Omicron, and in particular of becoming seriously ill. It’s more important than ever to have a booster if you are eligible, as two doses alone may not be effective.

 

UK figures published by the UKHSA suggest that a booster dose reduces the risk of hospitalisation due to Omicron by 92 per cent. The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) similarly said that a booster was 90 per cent effective at preventing hospitalisation from Omicron. This is a very high level of protection from serious illness (although it’s possible that this level of protection could fall if it has been several months or more since your booster.)"

 

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/covid-variant#OMIvax

To be frank how I see it is that anti vaxxers have jumped on the Omicron variant as a further excuse to justify why they refuse a covid vaccine, when in fact they've been refusing for over a year now and jump on any excuse to highlight their freedom cause.

 

The majority of people throughout the world have taken action to help stop this pandemic and keep themselves as safe as possible via vaccinations offered. Inequity in vaccine supply is an ongoing problem in some countries and helps to prolong the pandemic and facilitates emerging variants, yet where vaccines are readily available we have this vocal minority group shouting and demonstrating that their freedom is affected.

 

We are all working towards getting rid of restrictions, one way is through vaccination, the anti vaxxers for me are just taking a free ride because of their politics, beliefs, conspiracy theories or whatever they are into, or any excuse to reject the sound science on vaccination.

 

Some people have no idea what freedom is about. Sometimes it has to be worked for again for the good of all. Not prolong a bad situation because you refuse vaccination.

[NanLaew]

On 2/4/2022 at 7:08 AM, SiSePuede419 said:

"If a traveler staying at their hotel tests positive, the guest has no choice but to be hospitalized at that specific hospital for 7-10 days at their own cost – usually around 10.000"

 

Since when?

 

I thought you could stay in the hotel? My AQH hotel had a lower rate for an extended stay.

 

Stay until you test negative, then go.

 

Lot cheaper than a private hospital.

Indeed. I wish some YouTuber would take it upon themselves to destroy this "10,000 baht per day quarantine" myth. Unfortunately, most are keen on following the trend already running rampant on this forum and get all in a froth about untruths that don't affect them anyway because they are already here in Thailand with no plans to stray too far from their keyboards.

[peter zwart]

YEP

[ThLT]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The well-respected Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation in the U.S. has done a summary of currently known info on vaccine effectiveness against various variants and their prevention capabilities, including the various vaccines' ability to prevent Omicron infections.

 

I've highlighted the Omicron vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection data in the red line box. Data for the main three western vaccines available in Thailand is underlined in RED. Data for the two Chinese vaccines available in Thailand is underlined in BLUE.  Not surprisingly, as they have throughout the pandemic in VE, Moderna and Pfizer have the best results.

 

See the IHME chart below, with my annotations:

 

 

https://www.healthdata.org/covid/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-summary

 

So, as numerous other previously posted data have shown, the current vaccines DO have varying abilities to PREVENT Omicron infections -- not 100%, but not zero either. Moderna and Pfizer closing in on almost reducing Omicron infections by half, according to the IHME summary of available data.

Thank you. Along with the 33%-48% rate of preventing infection, it's important to also notice the "Severe Disease" column for Omicron, ranging from 37% to at most 73%:

 

 

So yes, vaccines do prevent infection to a certain degree. However, not "EXTREMELY good at preventing infection," like was said—and there is definitely not only a "small number of breakthrough infections" like was also said (52% to 76% is definitely not "a small number").

 

And that's without taking into consideration the 37% to at most 73% reduction of severe illness.

 

So yes, the vaccines are extremely useful and important for the pandemic, but not "EXTREMELY" efficient. If you do the average of AstraZeneca, Pfizer, Moderna and Sinovac, for Omicron, their effectiveness on average are:

63% at preventing serious disease

38% at preventing infection

 

*And since Thailand was mostly vaccinated with Sinovac and AstraZeneca (which have lower protection levels), the above averages are even lower for Thailand.

 

So no, someone vaccinated is not "EXTREMELY" protected compared to someone who is unvaccinated. And I say this as someone who is pro-vaccine.

Vaccinated should not have societal privileges, and unvaccinated should not be barred from things like public transportation. This would be authoritarian and almost unscientific to do so.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by ThLT