Child vaccination decision

[xylophone]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The OP posted this:

“Before a vaccine is ever given to people, FDA oversees extensive lab testing of the vaccine that can take several years to make sure it is safe and effective. After the lab, testing in people begins, and it can take several more years before the clinical studies are complete and the vaccine is licensed.”

This is simply a untrue statement as far as this covid vaccine is concerned."

 

 It is not an "untrue statment."

As has been noted earlier,  the explanation said "can take several years' " not "must take several years." The reason that vaccines usually take years to test is basically an economic one. Testing is expensive. Companies aren't going to commit to large scale testing before getting some positive indications for the prospective vaccine. In this case, because testing was subsidized, the vaccine companies were able to institute large scale testing immediately. So instead of accumulating data over a longer time period, it was able to be done over a short extent of time."

 

Just to add to your very good post, vaccines to fight coronaviruses were being tested way back when MERS and SARS were circulating, so there was already a great deal of work and knowledge put into developing such a vaccine, and as you quite rightly said, large-scale testing was able to be speeded up because of the money poured into the companies (and research) who were doing this.

[Jeffr2]

14 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Just to add to your very good post, vaccines to fight coronaviruses were being tested way back when MERS and SARS were circulating, so there was already a great deal of work and knowledge put into developing such a vaccine, and as you quite rightly said, large-scale testing was able to be speeded up because of the money poured into the companies (and research) who were doing this.

One thing they did with this vaccine to help speed up the full approval was to allow the drug companies to overlap phases.  And, the government pushed the FDA to act quicker.  Quicker than ever before.  No corners were cut.  A full process was undertaken.  Just cut through the bureaucratic red tape.

 

Billions of doses have been given.  Very few problems.  Compared to the millions who've died from the virus.  A no brainer.  Not to mention it will help end this crazy pandemic.

[bang saen guy]

While being pro-vax, I do not see the benefit of vaccinating anyone with CPvac at this point. it does nothing for Omicron.

 

[brewsterbudgen]

I want to protect my 6-year-old from Covid, so I've signed the consent form provided by his school to have him vaccinated, when it's available.  Not much of an indication of when that will be though.

[buick]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

But vaccination does, regardless of any other health consideration, dramatically reduce the probability of serious illness, hospitalization and death.

i don't think i said anything contrary to that in my post.  and i agree with what you say.

 

[thaitom]

I guess i am just confused when I read about the general vaccines protocols for testing, and the Emergency use authorization  approvals for the covid vaccines lacking the same testing procedures. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by thaitom
spelling

[mommysboy]

58 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The OP’s inquiry relates to a seven year old.

 

I said let’s go to a reputable source, I never claimed to be linking a peer reviewed study.

 

You continually make reference to co-morbidities, without any back up (peer reviewed or not).

 

COVID has caused serious illness, hospitalization and death amongst otherwise fit and healthy adults, why would it not do likewise to otherwise fit and healthy children.

 

Yes, I agree, micro-risk is the wrong term.

Yes the issue is about 5-11 year olds, not very young children who appear to be slightly more affected by covid19.  That was one of my points.  The article you cited is weighted towards toddlers, and then is conflated with older children.  Even in this group it later appears that hospital admissions were more precautionary, and that disease presentation was thankfully milder, according to the sources I read.

 

As a parent of a healthy 6 year old, I am very aware of the pros and cons of vaccine.  I am not against vaccination and will likely not object to it, particularly if it is with one of the more conventional vaccines, which all our family are well used to.

 

I 'keep going on' about comobordities because it's very obvious these are a key factor in most deaths.  In the UK only 2 deaths have been in previously healthy children!  That's startlingly small.  

 

My own personal belief is that covid19 does not present a significant threat to 5-11 year old healthy children, who face only a tiny risk of serious illness and death, even more so from the now dominant Omicron strain.  The gain to be had is marginal at best, and is offset by the similarly tiny risk of a serious adverse effect from the vaccine itself.  

 

Whilst anti-vaxxers are the worst of the lot in my book, it does no good to exaggerate in the opposite imo as it fosters distrust.  

 

As to whether we vaccinate my child I will likely take my guidance for Public Health England rather than the source you cite.

 

 

[buick]

2 hours ago, thaitom said:

I was as a child, and my daughter has all her inoculations, I have taken three covid vaccinations,  I am just concerned as any parent is about the doing the right thing health wise with these covid vaccines which are not going through the same years long testing as the other general vaccines.  I am leaning on waiting it out and seeing what reactions the other children may have from taking it and what other vaccine developments may be had in the near future.  

i see that as a reasonable approach.   who knows what will come next, we may end up getting a better vaccine that works 'forever' against infection/spread.  or we may need annual boosters, etc...  those at risk need to be careful.  but a young child with no underlying conditions doesn't seem to be in the risk group.  i'm also triple vaxxed and not an anti vaxxer. 

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Jeffr2 said:

I don't know of any qualified doctor that's confused on this.  Pretty much unanimous in their support for the vaccine.  Again, it's not just about the child's well being.  It's about society's.  Something some tend to forget, or don't care about.

I do. I am in contact with a lot, albeit spread throughout the world.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, thaitom said:

I guess i am just confused when I read about the general vaccines protocols for testing, and the Emergency use authorization  approvals for the covid vaccines lacking the same testing procedures. 

The vaccines being used for children are fully tested and fully approved, they are demonstrated safe and effective.

 

Perhaps your confusion is not what it seems.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Yes the issue is about 5-11 year olds, not very young children who appear to be slightly more affected by covid19.  That was one of my points.  The article you cited is weighted towards toddlers, and then is conflated with older children.  Even in this group it later appears that hospital admissions were more precautionary, and that disease presentation was thankfully milder, according to the sources I read.

 

As a parent of a healthy 6 year old, I am very aware of the pros and cons of vaccine.  I am not against vaccination and will likely not object to it, particularly if it is with one of the more conventional vaccines, which all our family are well used to.

 

I 'keep going on' about comobordities because it's very obvious these are a key factor in most deaths.  In the UK only 2 deaths have been in previously healthy children!  That's startlingly small.  

 

My own personal belief is that covid19 does not present a significant threat to 5-11 year old healthy children, who face only a tiny risk of serious illness and death, even more so from the now dominant Omicron strain.  The gain to be had is marginal at best, and is offset by the similarly tiny risk of a serious adverse effect from the vaccine itself.  

 

Whilst anti-vaxxers are the worst of the lot in my book, it does no good to exaggerate in the opposite imo as it fosters distrust.  

 

As to whether we vaccinate my child I will likely take my guidance for Public Health England rather than the source you cite.

 

 

I definitely agree with taking advice from medical professionals, the link I posted was definitely not advice to you or anyone else on what choices to make.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[thaiman]

I think it's best to use logic.  We all have immune systems that can fight off viruses, some better than others.  It's quite evident that children have the strongest immune systems and covid apparently poses no zero risk to children.  Why the need to vaccinate them if they can fight off the virus naturally?

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, bang saen guy said:

While being pro-vax, I do not see the benefit of vaccinating anyone with CPvac at this point. it does nothing for Omicron.

 

I'm assuming that CP in CP vac stands for Communist Party. So while that tells us where you're coming from,  namely a place of irrelevance, it says nothing about the effectiveness of Sinovac or Sinopharm against serious illness and death in the case of Omicron.

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, thaiman said:

I think it's best to use logic.  We all have immune systems that can fight off viruses, some better than others.  It's quite evident that children have the strongest immune systems and covid apparently poses no zero risk to children.  Why the need to vaccinate them if they can fight off the virus naturally?

If children have the strongest immune systems, why is it that child mortality used to be so high before the advent of modern hygiene and medicine? Why are so many vaccines given against diseases that used to be prevalent in childhood?

Edited February 6, 2022 by placeholder

[thaiman]

7 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If children have the strongest immune systems, why is it that child mortality used to be so high before the advent of modern hygiene and medicine? Why are so many vaccines given against diseases that used to be prevalent in childhood?

Why is the sky blue?  Is God real? 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

24 minutes ago, thaiman said:

I think it's best to use logic.  We all have immune systems that can fight off viruses, some better than others.  It's quite evident that children have the strongest immune systems and covid apparently poses no zero risk to children.  Why the need to vaccinate them if they can fight off the virus naturally?

If you are going to use logic, start with reliable data.

 

COVID is not a zero risk for children.

 

 

[thaiman]

30 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

If you are going to use logic, start with reliable data.

 

COVID is not a zero risk for children.

 

 

Yes, you are correct.  I should've said extremely low, almost zero risk.  I'm guessing most who do allow their children to get vaccinated are doing so because they feel they need to try and mitigate that extremely low risk.

[mommysboy]

56 minutes ago, thaiman said:

I think it's best to use logic.  We all have immune systems that can fight off viruses, some better than others.  It's quite evident that children have the strongest immune systems and covid apparently poses no zero risk to children.  Why the need to vaccinate them if they can fight off the virus naturally?

I think a better choice of words is needed in all honesty.  

 

Vaccines are basically very useful at reducing and even eliminating risk.  But the most important point for me is that this virus is very low risk for 5-11 year olds.  At a certain point there are little obvious benefits, whereas there is some risk in the vaccination itself (albeit also very small).  Frankly, I don't see much point.  I'm more concerned about dengue fever for instance- our life is a daily battle against mosquitoes- roll on a dengue vaccine. 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, thaiman said:

Yes, you are correct.  I should've said extremely low, almost zero risk.  I'm guessing most who do allow their children to get vaccinated are doing so because they feel they need to try and mitigate that extremely low risk.

I suspect most follow professional medical advice.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Chomper Higgot

[placeholder]

51 minutes ago, thaiman said:

Why is the sky blue?  Is God real? 

 

That you apparently believe that "Why is the sky blue?"" and "Is God real?" are the same kind of question tells me all I need to know about your understanding of fact-based thinking.

Edited February 6, 2022 by placeholder

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, mommysboy said:

I think a better choice of words is needed in all honesty.  

 

Vaccines are basically very useful at reducing and even eliminating risk.  But the most important point for me is that this virus is very low risk for 5-11 year olds.  At a certain point there are little obvious benefits, whereas there is some risk in the vaccination itself (albeit also very small).  Frankly, I don't see much point.  I'm more concerned about dengue fever for instance- our life is a daily battle against mosquitoes- roll on a dengue vaccine. 

The medical professionals advising vaccination disagree with you.

 

But yes, please let’s have a vaccine against Dengue and other mosquito borne diseases, if only to put an end to your whataboutary.

[DavisH]

7 hours ago, buick said:

that is just a popular narrative that people have learned and said over and over again.  it sounds good.

 

recently there was a czech folk singer who refused to get vaccinated.  her son and husband were vaccinated and got infected.  she decided not to isolate from them and get infected on purpose (and died !!).  so the people that were close to her got infected, even though they were vaxxed.  vaccination doesn't always block infection and transmission.  sometimes yes, sometimes no. 

For the most part, the current vaccines do not stop infection with omicron. This idea about protecting them has largely gone out the window now. Grandma and grandpa should have already been vaccinated anyway. If they cannot vaccinate, they need to isolate. Everyone is going to be exposed to omicron, it's just a matter of time. I have a coup,e of sister-in-laws who don't want to vaccinate. It's their choice. But their time will come. 

[thaiman]

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

That you apparently believe that "Why is the sky blue?"" and "Is God real?" are the same kind of question tells me all I need to know about your understanding of fact-based thinking.

One who presumes to know what others believe and answers questions with questions tells me all I need to know about your understanding of human nature.

[placeholder]

6 minutes ago, thaiman said:

One who presumes to know what others believe and answers questions with questions tells me all I need to know about your understanding of human nature.

Actually I didn't answer your lates questions with a question. I answered irrelevant trolling questions the way they deserved to be answered.

As for my earlier questions they clearly pointed out the major flaw with your assertion. If you want it as a statement it's that chldhood used to be a very perilous time for children but thanks to vaccinations and hygiene it's a lot less so so. Children are actually naturally  more vulnerable than adults are except for the aged.

Edited February 6, 2022 by placeholder

[Virt]

I think it became a little bit more difficult to decide if a young kid should get a shot or not after Omicron surfaced.

Now when we have a variant that seems to cause less fatalities amongst the adults,

we can't use the same reasoning to vaccinate the younger generation.

 

I guess it also depends which country a person i living in.

In November the Danish health authorities recommended vaccines for kids 5-11.

This week the director appeared in an article, saying they are debating if that recommendation still is valid.

 

Omicron simply changed the game plan within 2 months and we are now in a different place in the pandemic,

where it might not be just as good an idea to vaccinate children as it were 2 months ago.

 

For countries that still battle with Delta, i think it's another discussion.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The medical professionals advising vaccination disagree with you.

 

But yes, please let’s have a vaccine against Dengue and other mosquito borne diseases, if only to put an end to your whataboutary.

'The medical professionals advising vaccination disagree with you.' : Well they would wouldn't they. !? 

 

Actually, I've just finished speaking to a doctor who said he did not agree with covid vaccines for under 10's.  Some- not many- didn't even want the vaccine for themselves. I was surprised by that I must admit.  on the other hand, I know of another who has had 5 already.

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Virt said:

I think it became a little bit more difficult to decide if a young kid should get a shot or not after Omicron surfaced.

Now when we have a variant that seems to cause less fatalities amongst the adults,

we can't use the same reasoning to vaccinate the younger generation.

 

I guess it also depends which country a person i living in.

In November the Danish health authorities recommended vaccines for kids 5-11.

This week the director appeared in an article, saying they are debating if that recommendation still is valid.

 

Omicron simply changed the game plan within 2 months and we are now in a different place in the pandemic,

where it might not be just as good an idea to vaccinate children as it were 2 months ago.

 

For countries that still battle with Delta, i think it's another discussion.

This is a valid point that others don't seem able to grasp.  I think it is because Omicron has been portrayed as more dangerous in the USA.

 

Also, in the UK and Denmark the O virus has basically done the rounds already and is on a lap of honour.  It's possible that the majority of kids have already contracted it, and thus giving a vaccine may not even be medically advisable.  

[kwonitoy]

It's been available in Canada for 5-11 year old kids since November.

My son is 10 and I though long and hard about getting him vaccinated, I talked it over with him and he wanted to have his shots.

FWIW I'm 64 so fall into a higher risk category, but am healthy, don't smoke, maintain a proper weight, exercise etc.

I got my son vaccinated when it came out Nov 24, second shot 2 weeks ago now. No reactions other than a sore arm, same as my experience.

 

He's always been very healthy, no underlying conditions. The vaccination is just another layer of protection, if he needs it he's got it. I don't buy into the whole But IT's uTesTed and mrNa wHiLe cAuSe................ And kids don't get Covid (insert conspiracy links and third hand stories here)

There's a chance he'll get it and I want the best protection for him.

 

One of the drivers for me was that the schools here in Alberta have stayed open since the beginning of the school year in Sep.

With Omicron the schools have been running about 10% absentee rates, children and teachers.

His grade 5 class has quite a low rate although we don't get exact numbers, just an e-mail if there is a confirmed case in the school. A separate e-mail if there is an case in his class. Grade 1-9 school with a kindergarten, approx. 850 students.

The schools have sent home rapid test kits to help monitor if there are symptoms.

 

The School Board here just authorized a upgrade on all schools to a high grade HEPA  air filtration system, seems a little late, but governments. Easier to install here as all our buildings have heating systems with ductwork.  I think this will help more than masks.

 

All in all I'm much more satisfied with the school response in Alberta than his former private school in Udon Thani

Edited 9 minutes ago by kwonitoy

Edited February 6, 2022 by kwonitoy

[Jeffr2]

13 hours ago, thaitom said:

I guess i am just confused when I read about the general vaccines protocols for testing, and the Emergency use authorization  approvals for the covid vaccines lacking the same testing procedures. 

Thousands of children have been tested, age 5 to 11.  And more than 10 billion globally.  With very few side effects.  Especially compared to not being vaccinated.  I'd say that's a pretty good testing procedure.

 

Worth a read.

https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-vaccine-for-ages-5-to-11

[Jeffr2]

11 hours ago, thaiman said:

I think it's best to use logic.  We all have immune systems that can fight off viruses, some better than others.  It's quite evident that children have the strongest immune systems and covid apparently poses no zero risk to children.  Why the need to vaccinate them if they can fight off the virus naturally?

It's been proven natural immunity shouldn't be counted on.  Especially with Omicron.

 

Again, visit your doctor and get advice there.  Not from social media or others opinions.  Please.

 

https://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/bangkok-to-begin-pfizer-vaccines-for-children-5-11-next-month