Skin or muscle? The choice facing COVID booster recipients in Thailand

[Jimjim1]

28 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

governments want everyone to turn on each other spreading the fear that the unvaxed will spread it, but not tell you the vaxed (me) will also spread it.

From what I have read Governments are Not telling us to a large degree that the unvaxed are spreading it, or that the vaccinated can spread it.

What they are saying is that getting vaccinated dramatically reduces the risk should one get infected of hospitalisation and death and also infecting others, so surely getting vaccinated is beneficial to all of us.

[4MyEgo]

21 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The thing is before Omicron the evidence was very strong that the vaccination slowed transmission. So even if it's the case now that Omicron is far more contagious despite being vaccinated, does that mean the advice back then was false? Does that justify people behaving selfishly back then?

I don't believe it's about people behaving selfishly, it's a matter of choice, e.g. I have a choice to go and get vaccinated which I did.

 

Once you force someone to get vaccinated, you lose, because that is what tyranny is all about, it's not against the law to not want to get vaccinated, well yet anyway, so why push people to get vaccinated, the only thing you can do is educate people on the good and bad side of it all, and then let them make their choice without discriminating about it.

 

We all have a right to live freely in this world, we set laws and rules down which people break day in and day out, not getting vaccinated by choice is not a crime, it's choice and if you cannot accept that, then I give up.

 

As I mentioned, I am pro-vax, but that is my choice, if my neighbour doesn't want to get vaxed, I will still have a beer with him, too easy, what's all the fuss ?

 

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

I don't believe it's about people behaving selfishly, it's a matter of choice, e.g. I have a choice to go and get vaccinated which I did.

 

Once you force someone to get vaccinated, you lose, because that is what tyranny is all about, it's not against the law to not want to get vaccinated, well yet anyway, so why push people to get vaccinated, the only thing you can do is educate people on the good and bad side of it all, and then let them make their choice without discriminating about it.

 

We all have a right to live freely in this world, we set laws and rules down which people break day in and day out, not getting vaccinated by choice is not a crime, it's choice and if you cannot accept that, then I give up.

 

As I mentioned, I am pro-vax, but that is my choice, if my neighbour doesn't want to get vaxed, I will still have a beer with him, too easy, what's all the fuss ?

 

No, you don't have an absolute right to a choice. I've cited this old saw before: Your right to swing your fist ends where someone else's nose begins, You don't have the absolute right to endanger other people. In the USA, the 2nd Amendment protects your right to bear arms, but that doesn't mean you can fire your weapon into the air while standing in a crowd.

What about if the next pandemic comes along and has a much higher mortality rate? You think they have the right to refuse even it means a social collapse?

[Nicholas Paul KNIGHT]

What a load of codswallop, after over 55 years of receiving jabs numbering over 3-400 the worst I ever had was the Yellow Fever one .

Some hurt some do not, you are putting a foreigner into your body some react some do not .

 

Just stick it the upper arm andlive with it. Thauis are hypocondriacs anyway. 

[Jimjim1]

26 minutes ago, samjaidee said:

It's a bit worrying that a hospital would give you an antibiotic for a viral infection. Antibiotics are used for bacterial infections.

I am not surprised at what “almer “ reported as sadly in Thailand antibiotics are given for the common cold, totally useless.against it.

[4MyEgo]

20 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No, you don't have an absolute right to a choice. I've cited this old saw before: Your right to swing your fist ends where someone else's nose begins, You don't have the absolute right to endanger other people. In the USA, the 2nd Amendment protects your right to bear arms, but that doesn't mean you can fire your weapon into the air while standing in a crowd.

What about if the next pandemic comes along and has a much higher mortality rate? You think they have the right to refuse even it means a social collapse?

Like I said before,  it's choice and if you cannot accept that, then I give up.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Like I said before,  it's choice and if you cannot accept that, then I give up.

Well, apparently you don't believe that your right to swing your fist ends where somebody's nose begins. Strange sense of morality you've got.

[Grusa]

Blah Blah Blah...........

 

All I want is the bit of paper.

 

Live or die, I will catch the dreaded lurgie. But I do have a pressing need to travel. The need wil admittedly decrease in the inevitable event of my demise.

[HighPriority]

45 minutes ago, placeholder said:

No, you don't have an absolute right to a choice. I've cited this old saw before: Your right to swing your fist ends where someone else's nose begins, You don't have the absolute right to endanger other people. In the USA, the 2nd Amendment protects your right to bear arms, but that doesn't mean you can fire your weapon into the air while standing in a crowd.

What about if the next pandemic comes along and has a much higher mortality rate? You think they have the right to refuse even it means a social collapse?

Yep.

Its called social responsibility kids, you know, drive somewhere close to the speed limit, don’t take your guns to school or the mall…

You have freedoms, but you are also responsible to others who cannot be vaxxed for various medical reasons, the science is sound, vax is much safer than the virus.

[Wabel]

3 hours ago, Wuvu2 said:

Hmmm.  I asked MedPark and learned that I was given 100ug (.5ml) of Moderna as the booster. I received my initial 2 Pfizer doses for free, but I paid for this one so I could receive it after six months. I'm a little surprised I got so much more than recommended, but I guess they gave me the dose I paid for and I only had a days worth of side effects.

 

I noticed that none of the certificates list dose size (at least not in English).  From reading other posts it sure seems like dose size is something we need to pay closer attention to in Thailand.  Now I'm wondering how that might work out regarding international recognition of the vaccines received here.

I had 2 x Pfizer , then Moderna 3mths later and a 4th 1mth after that, apart from a sore arm and a bit tired I’m okay and I’m 74

[vandeventer]

5 hours ago, Guderian said:

I thought the side-effects of the second AZ jab were far worse than the Pfizer booster. In fact, that one didn't bother me at all, not even a sore arm afterwards, whereas the second AZ jab knocked me out completely for a day.

To be safe pick all three.

[bananafish]

I'll just pass altogether, thanks. 

[vVDB]

it's good that Thailand is embarking on a world-class clinical trial. where is the robust, randomized, double-blind protocol. the intradermal has not been tested for marketing authorization, it seems to me.

[Freddy42OZ]

I had SinoPharm first - no side effects other than a slightly sore arm. 

Second shot was AstraZeneca, again no side effects other than a slightly sore arm. 

Recently had a Moderna Booster and that was the easiest of the lot, didn't feel the shot at all and had no soreness or any other side effects.

 

[Kwaibill]

4 hours ago, Jack Cook said:

Yeah right. Tell

that to the Israelis who have lined up for their 4th shot. What research and misinformation are you referring to?

Yeah. Horrible about that fourth shot. Israel also has one of the lowest death rates in the world from Covid. They rank #47.

[SiSePuede419]

No side effects here, except for local soreness at the injection site.

 

Same for my MIL. 

 

Now, I'm not sure if that's good or bad.  Maybe lots of side effects means your immune system is working properly?!?!? ????

[it is what it is]

yup, i'm feeling like  pin cushion these days!

[Old Croc]

22 hours ago, rbkk said:

Most importantly, surely, is which of the options (All?) is recognized internationally for travel and will be shown and accepted overseas on the Intervac Vaccine Certificate issued by the Thailand Dept. Health.

Only important for a few on this forum.

Surely, about 63,000,000 Thais don't give a toss about which method is the most suitable for international travel, only the one that will give them the least grief.

I'm fairly sure the Public Health Ministry weren't considering a few whiney expats when they devised these alternatives.

[SunsetT]

23 hours ago, rbkk said:

Most importantly, surely, is which of the options (All?) is recognized internationally for travel and will be shown and accepted overseas on the Intervac Vaccine Certificate issued by the Thailand Dept. Health.

For us farang sure, but most Thais dont travel internationally so this would not concern them.

[SunsetT]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

Also the whole point of the vaccination is to let your body respond to a foreign substance and that is what will give you the protection, but you cannot compare that to how you would feel if you really got the virus. 

Either English is not your 1st language or you have misread 4Myego's post. That is exactly the point that he is making.

[GroveHillWanderer]

18 hours ago, CLW said:

I don't understand the article at all. What's the point? Reducing the dose to squeeze out more shot per vial?

Why not just follow the manufacturer advice for 1st / 2nd / booster shot.

The article is pretty clear (as far as I can tell) that the point is for people to be able to make a choice in order to minimize the systemic side effects (sore arm, headache, fever etc) if they want.

 

As for the manufacturer's advice, that was based on the situation in, and data from, the US where virtually everyone had two mRNA vaccines as their first two doses. The situation in Thailand is different in that many (if not most) people had combinations of SinoVac, SinoPharm and/or AstraZeneca. The data for these vaccines indicates that they seem to engender lower levels of antibodies than the mRNA vaccines, so a full dose of Moderna as a booster shot could actually make sense.

 

Moderna tested both full and half doses as a booster and released data showing that a full dose led to an 83-fold increase in antibodies while a half dose boosted antibody levels by 37 times. The only issue with the full dose was that it led to a slightly higher level of systemic side effects.

 

But if people had lower levels of antibodies to start with, before their booster (which is probable if they'd had either of the Sino vaccines, or even AZ) then it might be worth the risk of a slightly worse sore arm etc, to get the higher antibody boost.

Edited February 9, 2022 by GroveHillWanderer

[SunsetT]

Im 69 and have had 2 x AZ in the UK and one Pfizer booster in Thailand. No side effects except injection site was a bit sore to the touch for a day or 2, and POSSIBLY fatigue for a few days. I say possibly because the fatigue, for me, didnt start until 4 or 5 days after the 2nd AZ shot and about 2 weeks after the Pfizer booster. So it could have been something else and totally unconnected to the vaccines. And, although Im fit, my energy levels have dropped considerably in the last 3 years and I often get wiped out like this for a few days if I overdo it. I also use Cialis which can make me feel tired and a bit unwell as a side effect....????555.  (I felt tired for just the 2nd day and 3rd after the 1st AZ). I have 2 UK relatives well over 70 in the UK who were among the 1st to get the Pfizer jabs in the UK and both had no side effects whatsoever despite one having a leaking heart valve. Others I know to be 'worriers' have reported feeling unwell/sick for a few days to maybe more than a week. Most I know have, like me, had no side effects to speak of.

 

In conclusion, as the 'placebo effect' actually works and is now an established medical fact, I believe that through the same associated power of suggestion in most people, MOST of those that expect to have side side effects will have side effects, genuine side effects, and those that dont expect them or have an open mind do not get side effects. Of course there are others who get 'real' side effects, like the reports of shingles above, because they are perhaps not so fit and/or have a pre-existing medical disposition; known or unknown, which renders them more vulnerable to side effects. ( I understand that shingles can be brought on by stress, and, god knows, this covid19 Worldwide pandemic has certainly been stressful for everyone; some much more than others).

Edited February 9, 2022 by SunsetT

[GroveHillWanderer]

7 minutes ago, SunsetT said:

In conclusion, as the 'placebo effect' actually works and is now an established medical fact

I think you'll find that what you're referring to here is the 'nocebo effect,' which is where unpleasant side effects occur. The placebo effect is the opposite, where beneficial effects occur. Both occur through the power of auto-suggestion but one has positive effects and one has negative effects.

[SunsetT]

3 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I think you'll find that what you're referring to here is the 'nocebo effect,' which is where unpleasant side effects occur. The placebo effect is the opposite, where beneficial effects occur. Both occur through the power of auto-suggestion but one has positive effects and one has negative effects.

Thanks for the clarification. I did say " through the same associated power of suggestion" but did not know that it was recognised and actually has been named the "nocebo effect".

[rbkk]

5 hours ago, SunsetT said:

For us farang sure, but most Thais dont travel internationally so this would not concern them.

"11 million Thais are expected to vacation overseas this year" (2019) Pre Covid-19.

https://thaiembdc.org/2019/04/15/thais-becoming-outbound-tourists-in-greater-numbers/

[Fortean1]

Pfizer X 2, 17 Sep and 14 Oct.

Case of Shingles a week after 2nd Pfizer.

Shingles vaccine in 2007 in U.S.

New Shingles vaccine not approved by FDA in Thailand.

Shingles rash in groin, gone in ten days; intense to moderate nerve pain in left leg lasted 2 months.

Expect virus booster in April.

 

My Thai wife, who is 75, received AstraZeneca and Moderna.  Her booster will be in June.

 

Terry

south of Hua Hin

[RobU]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:49 AM, PEE TEE said:

A report saying that another side effect in the over 50s from the booster shot is Shingles i got shingles a week after mine and two more friends also got it. I was lucky and only had mild case right side on my back lasted 2 weeks . has anyone else heard this?  

The Shingles virus can actually lie dormant in a healthy persons skin. It erupts when that person becomes run down. So the possibility is that you and the other people already had the shingles virus in your skin and the injection caused your body to become run down because it was directing all its effort to manufacturing covid antibodies. In other words the vaccination does not give you shingles but the weakening of your body as part of the short term side effects of the vaccination may allow the previously dormant shingles virus to start breeding

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 hours ago, RobU said:

In other words the vaccination does not give you shingles but the weakening of your body as part of the short term side effects of the vaccination may allow the previously dormant shingles virus to start breeding

 

Yup, that's the current medical thinking.

 

The COVID vaccines do not cause shingles in people who previously haven't had chicken pox or shingles. However, the scientists and doctors have been studying whether the vaccines or COVID itself, rarely, can cause the shingles virus to re-emerge in those who already have it.

 

COVID-19 vaccines don't cause shingles, but may lead to flare-ups, experts say

 

"TORONTO -- While some are suggesting on social media that shingles may be a side effect of the COVID-19 vaccine, experts say there is no evidence to suggest that the vaccines cause shingles.

 

However, studies suggest COVID-19 infection or vaccination against the disease may "reactivate" the virus if a person already has had shingles or chickenpox."

 

Apparently, though, there's also a school of thought that the post vaccine shingles cases may instead be just a coincidence that would have occurred anyway.

 

"Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease expert at Vanderbilt University and a spokesperson for the Infectious Diseases Society of America, previously told The Associated Press that reports of shingles after being vaccinated are a coincidence.

 

"We have been emphasizing the vaccination of older adults. That's the very population in which shingles is the most common, and so you would expect some cases of shingles to occur after vaccination... because it's going to occur anyway," Schaffner said."

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines-don-t-cause-shingles-but-may-lead-to-flare-ups-experts-say-1.5516488

 

 

[kimamey]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:21 AM, Guderian said:

I thought the side-effects of the second AZ jab were far worse than the Pfizer booster. In fact, that one didn't bother me at all, not even a sore arm afterwards, whereas the second AZ jab knocked me out completely for a day.

I had 2 AZ and then a Pfizer and no real problems with any of them . My arm ached a little after the second AZ but I was having problems with that arm anyway. Having said that I know people who have been pretty bad for a day with both of them. It's down to luck really.

[Nojohndoe]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:34 PM, jippytum said:

I have had two AZ injections and waiting to hear about the third booster date.

Now the medical experts i have relied upon for guidance are in effect saying ' we don't know what method is best for you so take pot luck and decide for yourself. So much for medical science thanks a bunch

I'm going with a 3rd  AZ if it is made available and I am compelled by unmandated  mandates . The devil I have come to know  etc ! lol