Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital

[tgw]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

The Australian ABC article described him as "high ranking".

 

He said that Mr Medvedev is a former soldier in the Russian army and that he later served time in prison between 2017 and 2018 before joining the Wagner Group.

He was placed in charge of a Wagner division in Ukraine, where the mercenary group supplied him with around 30-40 troops every week, Mr Osechkin said.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64296979

let's hope it's true

[ballpoint]

A recent CNN piece with some grim footage of the Dnipro aftermath, plus Ukrainians going about their lives in Bakhmut, and some strong words to NATO from its former commander, General Wesley Clark at the end.  

 

 

[ozimoron]

Russian flags banned at Australian Open tennis after Ukraine complaint

 

https://www.rawstory.com/russian-flags-banned-at-australian-open-tennis-after-ukraine-complaint/

[tgw]

I'll just throw the headline in here:

 

Russian defense ministry confirms plan to expand army to 1.5 million troops

https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/russian-defense-ministry-confirms-plan-to-expand-army-to-1-5-million-troops

[thaibeachlovers]

19 hours ago, bannork said:

A Ukraine air defence missile would never have caused so much damage.

Meanwhile, soldiers on the front line hope for modern tanks.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64294653

 

While an air defense missile may not have caused the damage, it may have made the large missile it was aimed at fall to the ground and that was what caused the damage. Such things happen in war.

[bannork]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While an air defense missile may not have caused the damage, it may have made the large missile it was aimed at fall to the ground and that was what caused the damage. Such things happen in war.

One of the retired generals commentating on the war said at present Ukraine has no defence against these type of missiles fired from ships in the Black Sea.. The projectory is steep when fired and the missile too high to be shot down.

Accuracy of the missile is flawed however so they could have been aiming at some infrastructure.

[Rimmer]

32 minutes ago, bannork said:

One of the retired generals commentating on the war said at present Ukraine has no defence against these type of missiles fired from ships in the Black Sea.. The projectory is steep when fired and the missile too high to be shot down.

Accuracy of the missile is flawed however so they could have been aiming at some infrastructure.

 

I read they are firing these KH22 missiles from TU22 aircraft deep inside Russia, as you say they are incredibly inaccurate and arrive at Mach 3 in a vertical dive:

 

The Russian missile attack on an apartment building in Dnipro on Saturday was not just one of the deadliest strikes on a civilian target so far during this 11-month-old full-on war - there have now been 40 deaths reported and more anticipated - but it also highlighted what Ukraine claims to be a major vulnerability in its ever-evolving air defense capabilities. Ukraine's Air Force says that it cannot destroy Russia's Soviet-era Kh-22 supersonic cruise missiles. That's another reason, they said, why Ukraine needs more advanced air defense systems like the Patriot PAC-3 and the Aster SAMP/T.

 

More:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-kyiv-says-it-has-no-defense-against-russias-kh-22-missiles

 

 

 

 

 

[jvs]

1 hour ago, Rimmer said:

 

I read they are firing these KH22 missiles from TU22 aircraft deep inside Russia, as you say they are incredibly inaccurate and arrive at Mach 3 in a vertical dive:

 

The Russian missile attack on an apartment building in Dnipro on Saturday was not just one of the deadliest strikes on a civilian target so far during this 11-month-old full-on war - there have now been 40 deaths reported and more anticipated - but it also highlighted what Ukraine claims to be a major vulnerability in its ever-evolving air defense capabilities. Ukraine's Air Force says that it cannot destroy Russia's Soviet-era Kh-22 supersonic cruise missiles. That's another reason, they said, why Ukraine needs more advanced air defense systems like the Patriot PAC-3 and the Aster SAMP/T.

 

More:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-kyiv-says-it-has-no-defense-against-russias-kh-22-missiles

 

 

 

 

 

Or they need ATACMS so they can do some damage to the places these

supersonic missiles are fired from.

And the can take out the bridge 100%.

[Mavideol]

On 1/15/2023 at 11:11 AM, bannork said:

Switzerland as neutral as ever.

 

how much neutral are these friends of the ORCS.....

Swiss Will Send Millions to Sanctioned Russians After Veselnitskaya Plot

Swiss Will Send Millions to Sanctioned Russians After Veselnitskaya Plot (msn.com)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

Just saw this on BBC, awful news, helicopter crash in Kyiv, 18 dead including children (it crashed near a nursery), government officials onboard also dead.

 

Looks like a tragic accident at this stage, helicopters have to fly very low and it was misty.

 

Ukraine crash: Ministers killed as helicopter comes down near nursery

Eighteen people have been killed, including Ukraine's interior affairs minister, after a helicopter crashed beside a kindergarten in an eastern suburb of the capital Kyiv.

Three children were among the dead and 15 more are being treated in hospital, the minister, Denys Monastyrsky, was with eight others in the helicopter.

His first deputy minister and the state secretary also died, officials said, when the helicopter came down in the suburb of Brovary.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64315594

[GroveHillWanderer]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

While an air defense missile may not have caused the damage, it may have made the large missile it was aimed at fall to the ground and that was what caused the damage. Such things happen in war.

Except that, at least according to the link on the previous page, the Ukrainians do not have the capability to intercept this particular kind of missile.

 

As stated in that link:

 

Quote

"Since the beginning of Russia's military aggression, more than 210 missiles of this type have been launched at the territory of Ukraine. Not a single one has been shot down by air defense systems."

 

[bannork]

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/1/17/putinism-doesnt-work-on-the-battlefield 

An interesting read on how Putin divides and rules in an attempt to avoid blame for military mishaps and setbacks.

 

[rudi49jr]

Kremlin mouthpiece and number one liar liar pants on fire continues with his ridiculous nonsense and propaganda: the West (i.e. USA) is looking for a ‘final solution’ for Russia, similar to Hitler’s goal. You really can’t make that sh*t up, and it’s a mystery to me how anyone can believe that BS.

 

 

 

[rudi49jr]

Even Serbia, one of Moscow’s closest allies, has had enough:

 

Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic has condemned Russian mercenary force Wagner for trying to recruit soldiers from his country after the group ran a local media advertisement for Serbs to fight in Ukraine.

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/17/serbia-slams-russias-wagner-group-for-ukraine-recruitment-bid

[bannork]

 

[tgw]

1 hour ago, bannork said:

 

not high-ranking after all  ????

[tgw]

Media: Hungary wants EU to lift sanctions from oligarchs close to Putin

https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/media-hungary-wants-eu-to-lift-sanctions-from-oligarchs-close-to-putin

 

Hungary's leadership must be so corrupt.

[rudi49jr]

47 minutes ago, tgw said:

Media: Hungary wants EU to lift sanctions from oligarchs close to Putin

https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/media-hungary-wants-eu-to-lift-sanctions-from-oligarchs-close-to-putin

 

Hungary's leadership must be so corrupt.

They are. I have no idea why they haven’t been kicked out of the EU years ago. Victor Orban and his clan have a death grip on the country and it’s time they’re ousted. 

[thaibeachlovers]

9 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Except that, at least according to the link on the previous page, the Ukrainians do not have the capability to intercept this particular kind of missile.

 

As stated in that link:

 

 

Obviously I was making a suggestion. I wasn't there.

However, even if they can't take out "that sort of missile" they may have tried.

 

Anyway, as pointed out by other posters they are inaccurate. I don't know if that is correct, but why would they try and take out a block of flats with an expensive missile? The likely reason, as also already pointed out, is that they were aiming to take out some more significant target, and it went astray.

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, jvs said:

Or they need ATACMS so they can do some damage to the places these

supersonic missiles are fired from.

And the can take out the bridge 100%.

The Ukrainian's don't have them already so if American systems were used to attack Russia directly that would, IMO, lead to an escalation of the war, and IMO that is why America has not provided such before. I'm sure they will come with "strings attached" as where they can be used when they do arrive.

[LosLobo]

10 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

Kremlin mouthpiece and number one liar liar pants on fire continues with his ridiculous nonsense and propaganda: the West (i.e. USA) is looking for a ‘final solution’ for Russia, similar to Hitler’s goal. You really can’t make that sh*t up, and it’s a mystery to me how anyone can believe that BS.

 

 

 

 

Yet, Russia launched the Holodomor, genocide or "Final Solution to the Ukrainian Question" in the 1930's and now again with this Special Operation. 

[Rimmer]

Some off topic posts trying to derail the topic have been removed

[rudi49jr]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The Ukrainian's don't have them already so if American systems were used to attack Russia directly that would, IMO, lead to an escalation of the war, and IMO that is why America has not provided such before. I'm sure they will come with "strings attached" as where they can be used when they do arrive.

You have made it abundantly clear that you don’t want any further escalation of this war, and also that ‘this is not your war’.

So what do you propose we do now? Because no further escalation is a ship that sailed when Russia invaded Ukraine. It sailed even more when Russia started to indiscriminately capture, torture and execute Ukrainian citizens, and later started bombing Ukrainian infrastructure, so the people would have no water, gas, electricity and heat. Not to mention Putin’s use of the Wagner Group, Prigozhin’s private evil army of mercenaries.

Giving in to Russian demands would be madness, because that would be rewarding them for invading Ukraine, and encouraging them - next year, or the year after that - to go after the rest of Ukraine, and then the Baltic states, and then Poland, and so on and so forth.

You can keep repeating that you don’t want any further escalation until you’re blue in the face, but if you don’t have a realistic idea of how to end this war in another way, that doesn’t do much good, does it? 
So what would be your solution to end this war, without giving in to Russia? Honest question. 

 

[Mavideol]

15 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

They are. I have no idea why they haven’t been kicked out of the EU years ago. Victor Orban and his clan have a death grip on the country and it’s time they’re ousted. 

Putin has an EU member ally in Orban and also has a Nato member ally in Erdogan... as you,  I am still wonder why they didn't get kicked out of both and why they keep receiving monetary help.... I know the EU and Nato members have veto power but this is something that should be changed immediately as a member with veto power can and will blackmail any member asking for a resolution to pass, pretty much the same as UN and that's why Russia keeps vetoing any security resolution

[rudi49jr]

How many times are Putin, Medvedev, Lavrov and all those other lunatics going to keep threatening with nuclear war?

 

 

[tgw]

1 hour ago, rudi49jr said:

How many times are Putin, Medvedev, Lavrov and all those other lunatics going to keep threatening with nuclear war?

 

 

I'd rather they keep threatening.

But they know that Scholz is afraid and they play that chord.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, rudi49jr said:

You have made it abundantly clear that you don’t want any further escalation of this war, and also that ‘this is not your war’.

So what do you propose we do now? Because no further escalation is a ship that sailed when Russia invaded Ukraine. It sailed even more when Russia started to indiscriminately capture, torture and execute Ukrainian citizens, and later started bombing Ukrainian infrastructure, so the people would have no water, gas, electricity and heat. Not to mention Putin’s use of the Wagner Group, Prigozhin’s private evil army of mercenaries.

Giving in to Russian demands would be madness, because that would be rewarding them for invading Ukraine, and encouraging them - next year, or the year after that - to go after the rest of Ukraine, and then the Baltic states, and then Poland, and so on and so forth.

You can keep repeating that you don’t want any further escalation until you’re blue in the face, but if you don’t have a realistic idea of how to end this war in another way, that doesn’t do much good, does it? 
So what would be your solution to end this war, without giving in to Russia? Honest question. 

 

if you don’t have a realistic idea of how to end this war in another way, that doesn’t do much good, does it? 
So what would be your solution to end this war, without giving in to Russia? Honest question. 

 

Honest answer:-

Going back to before the invasion, negotiations with some loss of land to Russia might have saved all this death and destruction. That was my solution, but I have none to solve this situation. IMO this war will end when foreign countries end the arms supplies that keeps it going, and IMO that will happen this year as inflation and other economic hardship turns populations against spending billions to support Ukraine.

History, especially that of Barbarossa, tells us that Russia will win, short of a new leader ( Gorbachev ended the Afghanistan war- they didn't actually lose IMO )

 

As far as escalation goes, IMO no sane person wants to escalate a war with a nuclear armed state.

 

 

 

[jvs]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Honest answer:-

Going back to before the invasion, negotiations with some loss of land to Russia might have saved all this death and destruction.

I think you are wrong about this,giving in to Putin would have only made

him stronger in his believe Russia is invincible and it would even encourage him more to try to "reestablish the old USSR" like he said he wanted to do.

I strongly believe that now he realizes he has made a very big mistake but being the man he is he will never admit that because it will show weakness and that in itself would be very dangerous to him.

It is also very clear to him that even the thought of entering any NATO members country will mean the end of him and Russia as we know it.

You think support to the Ukraine will dwindle,i think it will not.

The USA is getting rid of an age old enemy for a relatively cheap price,there is a lot more to that but that is for another discussion.

No loss of life for them and no real danger,the threat of nuclear war has always been there.

Europe is also realizing that the Ukraine is in fact fighting their battle.

Russia is more and more isolating itself and slowly their economy is collapsing.

You are saying it is not your war,it is a war against pure evil and the Ukraine is fighting for all the right reasons.

Honest question,if you had a neighbor who wanted a piece of your garden for whatever made up reason,would you give it to him to keep the peace?Roll over and show your weakness in the hope he would stop?The world does not work that way.

Do you see what is going on?

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, jvs said:

I think you are wrong about this,giving in to Putin would have only made

him stronger in his believe Russia is invincible and it would even encourage him more to try to "reestablish the old USSR" like he said he wanted to do.

I strongly believe that now he realizes he has made a very big mistake but being the man he is he will never admit that because it will show weakness and that in itself would be very dangerous to him.

It is also very clear to him that even the thought of entering any NATO members country will mean the end of him and Russia as we know it.

You think support to the Ukraine will dwindle,i think it will not.

The USA is getting rid of an age old enemy for a relatively cheap price,there is a lot more to that but that is for another discussion.

No loss of life for them and no real danger,the threat of nuclear war has always been there.

Europe is also realizing that the Ukraine is in fact fighting their battle.

Russia is more and more isolating itself and slowly their economy is collapsing.

You are saying it is not your war,it is a war against pure evil and the Ukraine is fighting for all the right reasons.

Honest question,if you had a neighbor who wanted a piece of your garden for whatever made up reason,would you give it to him to keep the peace?Roll over and show your weakness in the hope he would stop?The world does not work that way.

Do you see what is going on?

I think you are wrong about this,giving in to Putin would have only made

him stronger in his believe Russia is invincible and it would even encourage him more to try to "reestablish the old USSR" like he said he wanted to do.

I've seen that often, but no one actually knows, do they?

Anyway, he wouldn't invade a NATO country and why would most of us care about some country in Eastern Europe if not in NATO?

 

I strongly believe that now he realizes he has made a very big mistake but being the man he is he will never admit that because it will show weakness and that in itself would be very dangerous to him.

IMO it's gone too far to back down now, and if he did it's over for him, literally.

 

You think support to the Ukraine will dwindle,i think it will not.

I disagree. IMO it's already dwindling in the US as their problems mount. Wait to see if the GOP is prepared to spend the money on missiles instead of on Americans. Don't forget the US debt problem

 

The USA is getting rid of an age old enemy for a relatively cheap price,there is a lot more to that but that is for another discussion.

LOL. Russia isn't going away, whatever happens in Ukraine

 

You are saying it is not your war,it is a war against pure evil and the Ukraine is fighting for all the right reasons.

All war is evil, but humans still do it, and probably always will.

 

Honest question,if you had a neighbor who wanted a piece of your garden for whatever made up reason,would you give it to him to keep the peace?

If he was bigger and stronger than me and was going to destroy me- yes I would

 

 

[kwonitoy]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Honest answer:-

Going back to before the invasion, negotiations with some loss of land to Russia might have saved all this death and destruction. That was my solution,

Looking back your strategy doesn't seem to work

2014 Russia illegality occupied Crimea, that's some loss of land and it didn't appease the invaders

Donbas was also illegibly occupied, so that's some loss of Ukraine land and that didn't appease the invaders

The invaders only understand force, negotiations for them are a sign of weakness and just lay the groundwork for more force because the world has been cowed by their supposed ferocious military and they have nuclear weapons.

 

Enough no more loss of land.

Their military has been shown to be a paper tiger and they are getting their axxes handed to them.

Gradually the weapons supplied by Europe, USA, Canada are improving in lethality, and that is all the invaders understand.

Stay in Ukraine and die or get out

 

Slava Ukraine