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Assault on Kiev: Russian helicopters swoop above Ukraine's capital


Chris.B

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21 hours ago, ballpoint said:

I tend to agree with you, and was going to comment that the glass fronted building that has been hit in two drone attacks is a good target, since there have been no casualties, but the damage is very visible and apparent to anyone looking in that direction, giving pause for thought.  However, I do have some doubts as to the overall effect.  As Hitler found when bombing London, and, indeed, Putin is finding with his attacks on Ukrainian cities, far from terrorising the population, it unites it.  Ukraine, and the West, want to split the Russian people from Putin.  Bringing them together in a "blitz spirit" would do the opposite.  Attacks on the Kremlin, military bases and other government buildings could show the Russians that the fight is against Putin, and not the Russian people, but I do think it would be a big mistake to start hitting civilian residences and infrastructure - either intentionally or not.

I agree with this. Stick to regaining Ukrainian territory.  I will make an exception though for military targets within Russia, especially the ones close to the border.

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1 hour ago, stevenl said:

I agree with this. Stick to regaining Ukrainian territory.  I will make an exception though for military targets within Russia, especially the ones close to the border.

If Putin responds to these drone attacks on Moscow by pulling air defense systems from Ukraine, these "insignificant " attacks will have served a very useful purpose.

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8 hours ago, stevenl said:

It is not whether the attacks are significant or not, the problem is these attacks could and imo will have a uniting effect on Russia. Which is contrary to the objective.

Perhaps.  Or perhaps it will remind people that a war of choice has consequences for the nation that chose to invade another country. 

 

My understanding (sorry, I can't give a specific source) is that Putin is trying to protect the major cities from any hardship caused by the war because he assumes a serious threat to his rule can only come from these cities, not the more sparsely populated parts of Russia.

 

So far it seems (accurate and unbiased reporting from inside Russia is difficult to come by) that Moscow residents are shrugging off the attacks because they have been inconsequential.  However I'm sure that Putin will maintain, and possibly increase, air defenses around Moscow.  That will come at the expense of air defenses protecting forces in or near Ukraine, which Ukraine will hopefully take advantage of.

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51 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Actually its offices used by Russian government ministries, hit outside of working hours and no casualties, great strike eh

 

The building that was hit is known as the "IQ quarter", which houses the ministry of economic development, the digital ministry and the ministry of industry and trade. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/drones-target-moscow-high-rise-building-hit-2023-08-01/

And the ministry of economics development  the digital ministry and ministry of industry and trade are not civilian organizations ? 

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23 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As in my post, Russian government ministries. So what is your point exactly? A play on words if they were civilian? Were there any civilians killed such as in the Russian strike on the blood transfusion center last night that did have deaths?

 

"photographs of the documents allegedly belonging to the Russian Ministry of Digital Development"

 

With all the censored propaganda they spew out, a legitimate target in my opinion

 

Ministry of Digital Development, Communications and Mass Media of the Russian Federation

Were these at weren't these civilian targets?

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8 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Were these at weren't these civilian targets?

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

 

How does that compare to last night's attack by Russia? Or the thousands of other war crimes in Ukraine by the Russians.

 

Pathetic comparison

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15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

 

How does that compare to last night's attack by Russia? Or the thousands of other war crimes in Ukraine by the Russians.

 

Pathetic comparison

Again the question is,are these civilian targets. A question you desperately are trying not to answer.

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1 hour ago, sirineou said:

And the ministry of economics development  the digital ministry and ministry of industry and trade are not civilian organizations ? 

civilian organizations serve the population.

in Russia, all the functions you mentioned serve Putin.

there's the difference.

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3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Try something better with your time and read my post again for your answer. In the meantime your deflection from my questions is not surprising.

With all do respect my friend, I posted asking if these were civilian targets to which you chose to reply, You make a lot of good but arguable claims , but that was not my question nor do I wish to argue any of these arguable points, 

First I said that these look to me like civilian targets to which you replied that they were trade ministries and such. I answered back. Aren't ministries civilian. Perhaps you answer it, but if you did it was buried in a bunch of other diflections , If so please please cut the portion where you did, and paste it in a reply.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, tgw said:

civilian organizations serve the population.

in Russia, all the functions you mentioned serve Putin.

there's the difference.

And still they are a government branch......

Edited by ThailandRyan
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1 minute ago, sirineou said:

With all do respect my friend, I posted asking if these were civilian targets to which you chose to reply, You make a lot of good but arguable claims , but that was not my question nor do I wish to argue any of these arguable points, 

First I said that these look to me like civilian targets to which you replied that they were trade ministries and such. I answered back. Aren't ministries civilian. Perhaps you answer it, but if you did it was buried in a bunch of other diflections , If so please please cut the portion where you did, and paste it in a reply.

 

 

Hardly buried and hardly deflections but certainly in context, highlighted for you, content now on the obvious answer that we all know anyway?

 

35 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

 

How does that compare to last night's attack by Russia? Or the thousands of other war crimes in Ukraine by the Russians.

 

Pathetic comparison

 

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1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

As I said what is your point? Kremlin controlled civilian propaganda ministeries. 

I am still not sure what your answer is because you bifurcate and qualified the answered with the " propaganda ministries.   " comment. 

Originally you told me that they were "which houses the ministry of economic development, the digital ministry and the ministry of industry and trade.  "

and provided a link, now you say that these were not economic development . digital, industry, and trade miniseries but rather "controlled civilian propaganda ministeries.  " what is that suppose to mean. 

Then you made a comment about " Pathetic comparison"???? Where did I compare anything? Please provide quote.

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2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am still not sure what your answer is because you bifurcate and qualified the answered with the " propaganda ministries.   " comment. 

Originally you told me that they were "which houses the ministry of economic development, the digital ministry and the ministry of industry and trade.  "

and provided a link, now you say that these were not economic development . digital, industry, and trade miniseries but rather "controlled civilian propaganda ministeries.  " what is that suppose to mean. 

Then you made a comment about " Pathetic comparison"???? Where did I compare anything? Please provide quote.

What makes you think I need to provide you with an explanation to the answer I provided and there for everyone to see? 

 

Just because you didn't make a comparison, I did, it was a response to your post whether you like it or not.

 

The notion that Ukraine targeted civilian target without the necessary context which I brought in is pathetic, it brings notions of targeting residential buildings, hospitals, blood transfusion centers, murdering civilians, men women and children. These are all well documented to have happened by the Russians. Ukraine on this occasion has targeted Russian ministry office buildings where no civilians were killed. Those are the facts.

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2 hours ago, heybruce said:

They were government targets.

Apparently we have a different definition of what is and is not civilian.

IMO things that are in the military are military assets, and all the rest are civilian.

I appreciate you engaging me in this conversation and keeping it civil. . And apologize for my unwillingness to get into a debate about all the arguable aspects of this issue, 

Knowing what I know about this issue, which IMO is considerable, I have come to a conclusion , and you knowing what you know , which also could be more ,or less, perhaps have come to a different conclusion.

Who is to say who is right?  I like it to be me but I am sure you feel the same :smile:

  

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