Why do we continue to receive smaller pensions than European expats?

[BritManToo]

37 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

I think doing this is tempting but risky as when periodically asked to return a certificate of life it would need to be done in the UK to avoid the risk of being found out. If not the cost of returning to the UK to do it would far outweigh the advantage

Pensioners living in the UK are not required to complete a 'certificate of life' ever.

So a pointless (if not ignorant) paragraph in your post.

[BritManToo]

41 minutes ago, Kalasin Jo said:

If found out the UK Pension Service would be entitled to  and surely would, recover overpayments with interest, by deduction from future pension payments. They might also prosecute for fraud.

Please post link to evidence or reports of this ever happening ..... or be accused of deliberately posting misinformation.

Edited March 1, 2022 by BritManToo

[Hummin]

Can a danish export his pention to Thailand? I met one who said he had to spend 6 months in Denmark every year, if not he lost his pention? 
 

Norway have been thinking about changing to simular rules, but far just been aired as possibilities for the future. 

[khunPer]

It's not only UK retiree expats that feel unequal to retirees that stay home, Danes are in a similar situation - Philippines also excluded - where government pension is cut, when moving out of EEC and other areas with similar agreement. It might have to do with some international treaties.

 

A retired Dane living in Thailand with nothing more than the government pension receives little over 5,500 Danish kroner after income tax - Denmark still claims its right as source country to income-tax the pensions - which equals 27,750 baht, and little less right now due to the lower European currency value.

 

However, the Danish pension is indexed, but only half of the index points, so less and less buying power every year.

 

To compare national pension you need to compare costs of living, and there might be quite a difference between living in London or in the country side, same for Copenhagen and outside. According to Expatistan Cost of Living Index, where Prague is index 100, London has a value of 237 points, while Brighton and Hoves is down to 171 and Belfast as low as 139. Copenhagen has index 190 and is the only Danish city in the index. Point is, that apart from London, and perhaps Copenhagen, the cost of living in UK and Denmark is relative close to each other, so the UK pension worth 31,237 baht each month is actually good.

 

If you then compare with Bangkok's 108 pint in the same index, your buying power is double if you originates from London and are living in Bangkok - Krung Thep Maha Nakhon, to be precise - it's only little cheaper than staying home in Belfast, but it might also be cheaper to live outside Bangkok, so that's also a possibility.

 

I use to mention this when my fellow Danes are complaining, because they are loosing more than the Brits. If a Dane stays at home or within the EEC and other countries in the economic community, the lower incomes - people that did not save up a lot in a private retirement fund - will have some addtions to the basic pension, making the total value after income tax is in the area of little more than 9,000 Danish kroner, which equals to 45,000 baht each month. With the difference in cost of living between Bangkok and Copenhagen, where Bangkok is 43 percent cheaper, it fit quite well with the basic government retirement pension, i.e. 45,000 baht minus 40 percent that equals 27,000 baht.

 

So in real buying power for cost of living it's same-same; however different, as health care is not free for expats in Thailand.

 

My conclusion is, that it might be more complicated than just UK - or Denmark - adjusting their pensions to retirees that choose to live in Thailand; even that we might save our governments some money by not using our home country's health care system and other retiree benefits. It might have to do with some economic treaties. On the other hand, nobody asked us to leave, we did it voluntary; and nobody stopped us to save up some funds, or pay into a private retirement fund during our working era.

 

But I agree, it's unfair with index adjustments of the pension, it's hard enough with half of the index points.

[grahamuk]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

2. NI 20% of my income (health care and state pension).

Since when was NI contribution at 20% ?

There are also lower (earnings) and upper limits on the NI contributions.

 

I believe the current (all-time high ?) NI rate deducted from employees, is 13.8%. 

For decades before that it was around the 8-10% mark. 

 

BASIC rate income tax in the UK is a lot lower than 40% too. 

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, grahamuk said:

Since when was NI contribution at 20% ?

BASIC rate income tax in the UK is a lot lower than 40% too.

1. Since always ........... 10% from employee (limited), and 10% from employer (unlimited).

Employers aren't charitable institutions you're the one that really pays it all.

 

2. I earned was paid a lot more than you.

Edited March 1, 2022 by BritManToo

[khunPer]

9 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Can a danish export his pention to Thailand? I met one who said he had to spend 6 months in Denmark every year, if not he lost his pention? 
 

Norway have been thinking about changing to simular rules, but far just been aired as possibilities for the future. 

If you stay outside Denmark for more than 180 days - apart from certain conditions as stationed, working abroad for a limited period, or taking a sabbath year or two; all without giving up a tight connection to Denmark - then you loose a number of basic right, as not being living permanently in Denmark.

 

You are entitled to receive your Danish government pension (Folkepension) abroad, if you are entiled to that pension, however only the basic part of the pension, not the additions (tillæg). If you are single and are entitled to maximum additions, you loose about 40 percent of your pension, when moving abroad outside of EEC and a few other countries (see my other recent posting about more detailed calculations).

 

Those Danes keeping a relationship to Denmark - i.e. the 180-day rule - do it to keep their additions and rights to healthcare...????

Edited March 1, 2022 by khunPer

[grahamuk]

Just now, BritManToo said:

10% from employee (limited), and 10% from employer (unlimited).

Aaah... shame you didn't make that clear in your original post...particularly for the non-Brits. ????

I used to work for the UK Department of Employment (as was)... so know a little bit.

 

Now happily retired to my Philippines shack, living on my pittance...+ 3.1% this April. ????

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, Martin Brit said:

You cannot rely soley on a State pension from the UK. The point is and always has been you are expected to make further provision for retirement yourself. Then you can afford that loaf of bread as prices rise and we all get older and live longer.

 

Don't know about UK, but of my 30+ jobs (usa), only about 5 offered any kind of pension, and all 5 went bankrupt.   I was only vested (stuck around) at the 1, and draw a pension from that job, guaranteed from the Union, not really the company.  It's a pittance, since I took it early, and was only there 13 yrs anyway.

 

I retired on RE & market trading.  Soc Sec from salaried jobs & pension, qualifies for 65k a month, but my investments provided the homes & cars, and future for wife & kid.   Many yanks only have Soc Sec, and if any oops along the way, may not have the equity in their homes at retirement.

 

Any health issues, and suspect many are barely making it, then add RE Taxes for home you already paid off ... yikes, NO THANKS

 

 

 

[NanaSomchai]

5 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

 

 

Looking at that map the only things I could think of (minus Turkey) were:

 

- Drinkable tap water.

- Clean and Green renewable energy.

- Decent animal/pest control programs.

- Rule of Law.

- Proper unbiased judicial system (state provided pro-bono lawyers, chance at a fair trial, possibility of appeals, etc)

- Nearly non-existent officials and civil servants corruption.

- Well trained police forces.

- High standards healthcare.

- Sensible retirement/pension programs for its citizens/residents.

 

I don't really have a conclusion to my post other than; When you can live in the relative safety and comfort offered by a blue colored nation, why would you even want to live in a red colored one?

 

I just don't get people sometimes.

 

[fredscats]

4 minutes ago, grahamuk said:

Aaah... shame you didn't make that clear in your original post...particularly for the non-Brits. ????

I used to work for the UK Department of Employment (as was)... so know a little bit.

 

Now happily retired to my Philippines shack, living on my pittance...+ 3.1% this April. ????

You could be the guy that UK pensioners living in TH  frozen/unfrozen could get in touch with for postal address       for a fee

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, khunPer said:

If you stay outside Denmark for more than 180 days - apart from certain conditions as stationed, working abroad for a limited period, or taking a sabbath year or two; all without giving up a tight connection to Denmark - then you loose a number of basic right, as not being living permanently in Denmark.

 

You are entitled to receive your Danish government pension (Folkepension) abroad, if you are entiled to that pension, however only the basic part of the pension, not the additions (tillæg). If you are single and are entitled to maximum additions, you loose about 40 percent of your pension, when moving abroad outside of EEC and a few other countries (see my other recent posting about more detailed calculations).

 

Those Danes keeping a relationship to Denmark - i.e. the 180-day rule - do it to keep their additions and rights to healthcare...????

Im still 12 years away from my pention age, and Im sure there will be changes by then, thats why I keep my ties to Norway while Im here, pay my taxes and do not loose out any rights while registered living in Thailand fulltime.
 

Time will show. 

[Peterphuket]

5 hours ago, Asquith Production said:

If theirs one thing that the UK Government does that angers me is this inequality with pensioners. I have my pension paid into my UK bank and then move across when the exchange rate is favorable. It does not cost the UK Government anything extra so I do not understand this so called reciprocal agreement. The only thing different is my address. 

 

The UK have actually committed fraud in my opinion and it is about time that  everybody got together to fight this.

Oh, you are thinking the UK Government are the only one?

Please wake up, many countries do the same, they love their taxpayers but they hate their own people.

[Asquith Production]

Just now, Peterphuket said:

Oh, you are thinking the UK Government are the only one?

Please wake up, many countries do the same, they love their taxpayers but they hate their own people.

I dont think the UK government are the only one but that is what this thread is about..

[grahamuk]

7 minutes ago, fredscats said:

You could be the guy that UK pensioners living in TH  frozen/unfrozen could get in touch with for postal address       for a fee

I don't approve of fraud... and the guys who went to live in Thailand knew the state pension situation when they went there...or should have taken the trouble to find out.  One day they're bragging to the mates back home how wonderful life is....next, crying about it.  We're all adults. 

[Andy261]

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

If you live single and make your own food, and you own your appartment? Manageable. We live on 30k a month on the farm and have 15k in expenses before food, gasolin, diesel etc. we live good, but it is without holiday, insurance, etc. just daily living cost and expenses including pay for workers

That's called surviving, not living.

[fredscats]

2 minutes ago, grahamuk said:

I don't approve of fraud... and the guys who went to live in Thailand knew the state pension situation when they went there...or should have taken the trouble to find out.  One day they're bragging to the mates back home how wonderful life is....next, crying about it.  We're all adults. 

I  do not approve of fraud,but no fraud involved   read DWP regulations (as to fraud)      Should take the trouble of reading DWP regulations      nothing and nobody has ever been accused of fraud  on old aged pension,...and may say nobody ever will

[NanaSomchai]

42 minutes ago, khunPer said:

If you stay outside Denmark for more than 180 days - apart from certain conditions as stationed, working abroad for a limited period, or taking a sabbath year or two; all without giving up a tight connection to Denmark - then you loose a number of basic right, as not being living permanently in Denmark.

 

You are entitled to receive your Danish government pension (Folkepension) abroad, if you are entiled to that pension, however only the basic part of the pension, not the additions (tillæg). If you are single and are entitled to maximum additions, you loose about 40 percent of your pension, when moving abroad outside of EEC and a few other countries (see my other recent posting about more detailed calculations).

 

Those Danes keeping a relationship to Denmark - i.e. the 180-day rule - do it to keep their additions and rights to healthcare...????

As weird as it may sound, I have a weird hobby of collecting citizenships just because, well... it's a hobby, here are a few things I can tell you about:

 

These are pre-retirements, not pension related:

 

Portugal: Must live and be settled permanently in Portugal to receive any forms of benefits, if you leave the country for more than 30 days, you become ineligible for any state provided benefits. You must report you have left for another country. Benefits are paid monthly by the 21th of each month.

 

Spain: Must live and be settled permanently in Spain to receive any forms of benefits, you may be allowed up to 2 months per calendar year of leave, if you are out of the country more than 60 days over the span of one calendar year, your benefits are stripped. Not reporting is considered as committing fraud. Benefits are paid monthly by the 15th of the month.

 

France: Must live and reside permanently in France to receive any forms of benefits, must have a resident permit to claim benefits, you are allowed to be out of France 90 days per year, but must return and fill taxes in order to retain benefits eligibility in France. Benefits are paid monthly between the 5th and the 7th, by law the funds must be available in your account by the 7th, so if the 7th is a saturday or a sunday, you'll then get paid by the 5th instead.

 

UK: Must live in the UK, be either a UK citizen or fully settled status (which you acquire after 5 years of full residency) to get any benefits. You must also demonstrate a second right to residency (working, self employed, jobseeker, etc). Also if you leave for more than 30 days you must report to the Department for Work and Pensions. If they can demonstrate you have left without telling them, you are considered committing fraud. The DWP has acquired a bot software from an Israeli firm which scrapes facebook pages, twitter accounts, VK pages, search metadata, etc to gather evidences whether you are a law breaker. Also UK benefits are weekly (over complicated for no reason, makes no sense).

 

Switzerland: Must live in Switzerland, have the Swiss citizenship, be a permanent resident at least 180 days per year to be eligible for benefits, with that being said each "part" of Switzerland applies it's own rules along it's own subsequent set of rules, so it depends on where you are registered, Geneva is known to have the most relaxed rules, if out of the country more than 180 days over a rolling period (not calendar year), benefits are stripped.

 

Belgium: Must have a registered address in Belgium any P.O. Box or charity where you can receive mail is sufficient, you don't have to live there by law, you may be eligible for benefits after only 1 month of staying in Belgium, given non citizen living for more than 90 days in Belgium are subject to mandatory self-registration at their local city hall/town hall. Once they are fully registered they receive a Belgian resident card which then can be used to access other states benefits. Presence requirements are not enforced as far as I've been told since there is no control/very little checks.

 

I am not sure about the rest of the World, but it is knowledge being passed around:

 

- Other countries easy to get benefits and retirement pensions from are: The Netherlands, Sweden and soon Scotland.

- Other countries hard to get benefits and retirement pensions from are: Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Finland.

 

I wish I knew more.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by NanaSomchai

[KanchanaburiGuy]

Hmmm. I dunno. 

 

A question like this hinges on so many different variables. For example: 

 

The UK pension is intended to provide benefit/assistance to a person living in the UK. The benefit amounts are structured for THAT. They are NOT structured for the thousand variables that come into play when one lives in one of a thousand different elsewheres. 

 

You want "indexing?" How about being able to buy a whole lot more in Thailand with that money, than you could ever hope to buy in the UK? That's a kind of "indexing," too. 

 

Should they chop what they pay you in half, so what you can buy in Thailand is equivalent to what you could buy in the UK? After all, being in Thailand is giving you a significant UNFAIR  BUYING ADVANTAGE that pensioners in the UK can't enjoy! 

 

See what I mean? Living in Thailand has already  "indexed" you far ahead of your comparably paid compatriots in the UK. Their money there... doesn't go nearly as far... as your money here! 

 

So, if you're not getting a "cost of living" or "inflation" increase at the same time they are---living in the UK---maybe that's not such a big deal?

 

After all, the UK could decide to base expat pensions on relative international buying power rather than using a flat rate... (the technology certainly already exists to do this!)... and then you'd be $crewed. 555

 

Sorry, but this complaint seems to me like someone complaining that no one put a SECOND cherry on top of their ice cream sundae!

 

Yeah, it's something to complain about, but meanwhile......... I've got me an Ice Cream Sundae! 

 

555

Edited March 1, 2022 by KanchanaburiGuy
Anal-retentive

[Hummin]

20 minutes ago, Andy261 said:

That's called surviving, not living.

Not at all, It is a good sustainable living, but we also travel quite often, and do other things than staying on the farm as well saving money. It is good to know your bottom line, and know you can actually live like that if necessery. 
 

If I was single, there is no way I would live like this alone, and the lifestyle would have been different. Luckily my gf make food you cant buy even in restaurants, and also make my life easy to stay like we do. Without her, I could not do it. 
 

We did not use much more than 30k a month while living in Hua Hin either, but then different budget, eating out more often than making food home. 
 

I understand some will not understand it is possible to live on that amount, but thats because you do not have to live like that, and also do not find it interesting to try and figure out what is the bottom line if you have to. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Hummin

[Laughing Gravy]

6 minutes ago, NanaSomchai said:

The DWP has acquired a bot software from an Israeli firm which scrapes facebook pages, twitter accounts, VK pages, search metadata, etc to gather proof you are a law breaker

I knew there was a reason not for using these, besides they waste valuable time and leave a carbon footprint.

[grahamuk]

12 minutes ago, fredscats said:

I  do not approve of fraud,but no fraud involved   read DWP regulations (as to fraud)      Should take the trouble of reading DWP regulations      nothing and nobody has ever been accused of fraud  on old aged pension,...and may say nobody ever will

I am perfectly familiar with DWP regs thank you. I also used to work for them. Perhaps you haven't cottoned to the fact that this is not just about the state pension.  Get your thinking cap on sir. 

[SunsetT]

53 minutes ago, fredscats said:

Yes and yes     just get on with it  not a chance in hell of anything untoward happening   unless you inform  but then your fault

It does not apply to me but maybe u could offer advice by PM to anyone else who is interested.

[fredscats]

7 minutes ago, NanaSomchai said:

As weird as it may sound, I have a weird hobby of collecting citizenships just because, well... it's a hobby, here are a few things I can tell you about:

 

These are pre-retirements, not pension related:

 

 

 

UK: Must live in the UK, be either a UK citizen or fully settled status (which you acquire after 5 years of full residency) to get any benefits. You must also demonstrate a second right to residency (working, self employed, jobseeker, etc). Also if you leave for more than 30 days you must report to the Department for Work and Pensions. If they can demonstrate you have left without telling them, you are considered committing fraud. The DWP has acquired a bot software from an Israeli firm which scrapes facebook pages, twitter accounts, VK pages, search metadata, etc to gather evidences whether you are a law breaker. Also UK benefits are weekly (idiots).

 

 

Not applicable to SP    IN DWP regulations      Others PC / Jobseekers/housing  excepted

[fredscats]

3 minutes ago, grahamuk said:

I am perfectly familiar with DWP regs thank you. I also used to work for them. Perhaps you haven't cottoned to the fact that this is not just about the state pension.  Get your thinking cap on sir. 

 

4 minutes ago, grahamuk said:

I am perfectly familiar with DWP regs thank you. I also used to work for them. Perhaps you haven't cottoned to the fact that this is not just about the state pension.  Get your thinking cap on sir. 

What is the thread title?

[NanaSomchai]

2 minutes ago, fredscats said:

Not applicable to SP    IN DWP regulations

I never said it was.

 

If you re-read again I clearly bolded and underlined the information I merely provided was unrelated to pensions but catering to other benefits.

 

As I'm not old enough to be eligible for pensions for a very long time, my knowledge on state pensions is albeit very limited.

 

And yes... I'm aware I am very off topic, the idea behind the post was to demonstrate that countries have different rules and requirements on how long can you receive funds without even being there.

[grahamuk]

1 minute ago, fredscats said:

 

What is the thread title?

I see it has gone over your head.  Nevermind.  I'm too old to explain to yet another person how the UK benefit system (and fradulent claims for such benefits) works. 

Carry on. 

[NanaSomchai]

12 minutes ago, fredscats said:

 

What is the thread title?

Who cares what the thread title is, really.

 

The idea behind the post was to demonstrate that countries have different rules and requirements on how long can you receive funds without even being there.

 

Some being 30 days, some 60 days, others 90 days while the rest can be as high as 180 days, very often these rules/requirements may (or may not) enforced by respective countries and more often than not they also appear to apply to retirement schemes, state pensions, etc.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by NanaSomchai

[KannikaP]

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

Your right to export your full pention to a country outside Europe, depending on how many years you lived and worked in Norway. 

I was told by a man at NAV that pensions are reduced if the recipient lives in Thailand, no matter what the value of the pension is.

[SunsetT]

17 minutes ago, NanaSomchai said:

If they (DWP) can demonstrate you have left (for over 30 days) without telling them, you are considered committing fraud.

This must only apply to 'benefit claimants' as thousands of retired UK folk holiday or spend time abroad in 2nd homes for over a month without telling the DWP. A pension is not a benefit!