Opinion: It should not require a national tragedy to push us to change our driving habits

[Thunglom]

the OP represents the mindset that is precisely the reason that no progress has been made for 3 decades with road safety in Thailand.

so long as they cling to an archaic attitude to road safety and think it is the result of "bad drivers" then no progress will be made. ‘Blame game’ ineffectual when it comes to road safety - Bad driving is not the cause, it is a symptom of of the overall driving environment that is permitted to exist throughout Thailand by successive ill-informed governments. As a global community, there is clearly so much knowledge, expertise and interest in road safety. Yet, the issues raised and discussed by the public and authorities in Thailand remain unchanged over decades. We need political will and resources to move to actions to achieve any significant change in the situation in countries like Thailand.

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Thunglom

[Bangkok Barry]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

FREEDOM

 

Isn't it great.  No oppression traffic police.

 

Is that illegal, as the only type of taxi where we live.  Then again, the side cart itself is illegal ????

 

Not sure MVAs count as 'national tragedy'  As stated, it's a work in progress, and much better than previous decades.

My understanding that the side cart isn't illegal but riding in it is, for obvious reasons. My brother-in-law policeman has one. No safety features at all, and there are reports of people being tossed out and killed when there is an accident. But, whether anything is illegal or not has no relevance in Thailand and there are plenty of people who are happy to play Russian Roulette with their life. Sometimes they lose.

 

I'm surprised that you welcome no traffic police, when if traffic laws were enforced it would save many thousands of lives a year. But yeah, freedom to kill and be killed is a wonderful thing for those who are either too lazy or can't be bothered to drive responsibly.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

My understanding that the side cart isn't illegal but riding in it is, for obvious reasons.

 

I'm surprised that you welcome no traffic police, when if traffic laws were enforced it would save many thousands of lives a year. 

Actually, any modification, not done by the manufacturer of MB is illegal.  Obviously tolerated and not enforced.

 

I consider the MVA's high death count nothing more than suicides.  Mostly scooter, many single vehicle, many no helmets.  Laws and enforcement wouldn't help much, and be costly.  Need a whole new 2nd shift to enforce just the helmet law.

[VocalNeal]

10 hours ago, ozbanglamung said:

On average fifty three people die everyday on the roads in Thailand.

Over 100 in the USA.

 

Younger drivers are more likely to be involved in an accident. 

Something like half the population is under 25. 

Etc, etc.

 

 

[VocalNeal]

13 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

why Thailand so often seems to attract those at the bottom of the barrel. They feel at home.

“Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.”

 

When in Rome I do what the Romans do. 

[MyFriend You]

On 3/16/2022 at 5:05 PM, BangkokReady said:

It isn't that, or it isn't just that, it's the culture.  If you instituted Western style law enforcement on Thai roads tomorrow there would be a national outcry.  Thai people just wouldn't accept it.

 

I think people are mistaken when they blame solely government officials for the state of the country.  Almost everything that people complain about and blame on the government happens at all levels in Thailand.

You know, I see this comment "Change the rules, Thai people just wouldn't accept it"  I am wondering "What choice do they have, give them enough fines and they will learn the law"   The laws are on the books, they just have to be enforced...........consistantly, without bribery and corrupt Police.  Yeah, pipe dream I know, but when they start confiscating motorbikes AND cars for awhile - then people will listen - eventually.  There comes a time when you have to bring the hammer down. 

 

Okay, I'll get the popcorn and wait for the flamers.............Peace

[Will B Good]

11 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

You know, I see this comment "Change the rules, Thai people just wouldn't accept it"  I am wondering "What choice do they have, give them enough fines and they will learn the law"   The laws are on the books, they just have to be enforced...........consistantly, without bribery and corrupt Police.  Yeah, pipe dream I know, but when they start confiscating motorbikes AND cars for awhile - then people will listen - eventually.  There comes a time when you have to bring the hammer down. 

 

Okay, I'll get the popcorn and wait for the flamers.............Peace

I agree....you have to start somewhere.......an intense program of public education....possibly up a year, giving them plenty of notice....then it's D-Day.

 

Won't happen of course.......politicians have better things to do than worry about the wellbeing of its citizens.

[Mr Derek]

My theory is that the bad drivers in Thailand learn their road skills on a motorbike first, most likely in a local neighbourhood where life is informal and road rules hardly matter (not wearing a helmet, riding the wrong direction at the edge of the road, not indicating, ignoring road signs and traffic lights, and generally being cavalier towards other road users).

 

I don't believe it is possible to enforce proper road use on every dust road in every village right across Thailand, therefore it is not possible to eradicate entirely those bad habits and attitudes once they get onto the highway in cars.

 

Rigorous testing that denies poor drivers a licence should have some effect, though many will still drive anyway.

Rigorous policing should have some effect, but the problem is really more than they can handle.

Education and public information films should have some effect, but really bad drivers won't care anyway.

Darwin's law should have some effect, but the supply of bad drivers is too great.

 

There must be a solution to this though. I'm still thinking...

[vinci]

laws are made to be enforce, sadly Thailand have none, 200, 300 hundred baht fine aint gonna do the trick

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Mr Derek said:

My theory is that the bad drivers in Thailand learn their road skills on a motorbike first, most likely in a local neighbourhood where life is informal and road rules hardly matter (not wearing a helmet, riding the wrong direction at the edge of the road, not indicating, ignoring road signs and traffic lights, and generally being cavalier towards other road users).

 

I don't believe it is possible to enforce proper road use on every dust road in every village right across Thailand, therefore it is not possible to eradicate entirely those bad habits and attitudes once they get onto the highway in cars.

 

Rigorous testing that denies poor drivers a licence should have some effect, though many will still drive anyway.

Rigorous policing should have some effect, but the problem is really more than they can handle.

Education and public information films should have some effect, but really bad drivers won't care anyway.

Darwin's law should have some effect, but the supply of bad drivers is too great.

 

There must be a solution to this though. I'm still thinking...

Just to be clear, this article was about motorcycle drivers, not automobile drivers. And before we get too smug about Thai motorcyclists, consider this:

"In 2019, 5,014 motorcyclists died in motorcycle crashes, down slightly from 5,038 in 2018, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). In 2019, motorcyclists were nearly 29 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a crash per vehicle miles traveled."

https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-motorcycle-crashes#:~:text=In 2019%2C 5%2C014 motorcyclists died,crash per vehicle miles traveled.

[Thunglom]

7 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Actually, any modification, not done by the manufacturer of MB is illegal.  Obviously tolerated and not enforced.

 

I consider the MVA's high death count nothing more than suicides.  Mostly scooter, many single vehicle, many no helmets.  Laws and enforcement wouldn't help much, and be costly.  Need a whole new 2nd shift to enforce just the helmet law.

from the E/L version of Thai road regulations- "“Motorcycle” means a vehicle driven by motor or electric power with not more than two wheels, or not more than an additional wheel in a sidecar, and shall include a bicycle equipped with motor driven devices;"

[VocalNeal]

5 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

The laws are on the books, they just have to be enforced...........consistantly,

Some countries have policing by consent. This means the majority of the people abide by the law. Only the wrong doers need to be "policed"

[TropicalGuy]

Immutable Thai Fatalistic CULTURE is clearly Responsible. Encouraged by Govt. / Elites  and Tolerated by People, to keep Population Poor Passive Uneducated Materialistic, so easier to Control. This Culture mitigates against Quality of Life including Preventative Road Safety Culture.It has existed here for 800 years and will be here still in 800 years time. 

[TropicalGuy]

5 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Some countries have policing by consent. This means the majority of the people abide by the law. Only the wrong doers need to be "policed"

Nobody Really Gets It Here do they ? There are No Laws and No Rules here to “enforce”. There is only CULTURE which reduces Laws here to Guidelines. Utterly Incompatible with Road Safety.
 

800 years old Culture that has not and Won’t Ever Change. It’s rather like insisting on Nomads wandering certain lands for thousands of years  to respect Borders fifty years old ! 

[Sparktrader]

25 minutes ago, TropicalGuy said:

Nobody Really Gets It Here do they ? There are No Laws and No Rules here to “enforce”. There is only CULTURE which reduces Laws here to Guidelines. Utterly Incompatible with Road Safety.
 

800 years old Culture that has not and Won’t Ever Change. It’s rather like insisting on Nomads wandering certain lands for thousands of years  to respect Borders fifty years old ! 

Culture or low IQ?

[TropicalGuy]

9 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Culture or low IQ?

Well, according to the famous book on race IQ, SE Asians DO have the same IQ range as Western Europeans ….but clearly do not “use it the same way” (rather like Japs with the highest IQ but invented nearly nothing) …..you know like inventing Industry Banking Medicine Jets Cars Spacecraft Computers Music etc. Culture overrides IQ & Creativity big time it seems…..

[Sparktrader]

1 minute ago, TropicalGuy said:

Well, according to the famous book on race IQ, SE Asians DO have the same IQ range as Western Europeans ….but clearly do not “use it the same way” (rather like Japs with the highest IQ but invented nearly nothing) …..you know like inventing Industry Banking Medicine Jets Cars Spacecraft Computers Music etc. Culture overrides IQ & Creativity big time it seems…..

Road accidents are caused by low IQ people. Asia has more people than Europe.

[TropicalGuy]

6 minutes ago, Sparktrader said:

Road accidents are caused by low IQ people. Asia has more people than Europe.

Haven’t seen that correlation. One reason Thailand has so many road deaths is so many mopeds ridden unlike Arab countries which are just as stupid on the road but far fewer deaths as no mopeds ridden. 

[Sparktrader]

No mopeds in Thailand.

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Sparktrader said:

No mopeds in Thailand.

But they do have motorbikes. Lots and lots of motorbikes. In the USA motorcyclists have 29 times the death rate per mile traveled as do automobile drivers. 

[pokerface1]

The quicker self driving cars become the norm the better as far as saving lives is concerned.

Until that day comes then nothing will change as most of the attitude drivers display is related to stupidity and you can't fix Stupid

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, pokerface1 said:

The quicker self driving cars become the norm the better as far as saving lives is concerned.

Until that day comes then nothing will change as most of the attitude drivers display is related to stupidity and you can't fix Stupid

I would be a nervous wreck..... even when I let the Mrs drive, a U-Turn has me in a cringe!

[tonray]

4 minutes ago, pokerface1 said:

The quicker self driving cars become the norm the better as far as saving lives is concerned.

Until that day comes then nothing will change as most of the attitude drivers display is related to stupidity and you can't fix Stupid

Thailand will institute self driving taxis where you have to check to see if the meter is on....

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, Sparktrader said:

No mopeds in Thailand.

Plenty of mopeds here.  Depending your definition.  They are just not called mopeds.

[jacko45k]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Plenty of mopeds here.  Depending your definition.  They are just not called mopeds.

My definition is a bicycle with a motor that can also be propelled by pedaling ... but I see it is more general than that. 

[KhunLA]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

My definition is a bicycle with a motor that can also be propelled by pedaling ... but I see it is more general than that. 

That would be my definition also.  Googled before replying, and some consider it just to have a smaller engine, or less speed ability or simply a platform to put your feet on.  

 

In which case, plenty fit those descriptions, especially the flood of elective 2 wheeler now on the market.

 

With 'ped' in the name, I'd expect to see pedals, whether used on not.  Countries with dual or no license required for say 50 cc, many consider them moped, though don't see pedals on a lot of those examples.

 

Here, Thailand, if motor driven 2 wheeler, it's a motorcycle first.  If having platform, step through, most call them scooters.  I used to call everything a scooter, even big hogs....oops.  Now if you google scooter, usually get the stand up thingys.

[Sparktrader]

2 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Plenty of mopeds here.  Depending your definition.  They are just not called mopeds.

Scooters not mopeds.

[thailand49]

On 3/18/2022 at 1:28 PM, Mr Derek said:

My theory is that the bad drivers in Thailand learn their road skills on a motorbike first, most likely in a local neighbourhood where life is informal and road rules hardly matter (not wearing a helmet, riding the wrong direction at the edge of the road, not indicating, ignoring road signs and traffic lights, and generally being cavalier towards other road users).

 

I don't believe it is possible to enforce proper road use on every dust road in every village right across Thailand, therefore it is not possible to eradicate entirely those bad habits and attitudes once they get onto the highway in cars.

 

Rigorous testing that denies poor drivers a licence should have some effect, though many will still drive anyway.

Rigorous policing should have some effect, but the problem is really more than they can handle.

Education and public information films should have some effect, but really bad drivers won't care anyway.

Darwin's law should have some effect, but the supply of bad drivers is too great.

 

There must be a solution to this though. I'm still thinking...

No country can eradicate you got most of it right little here a little there to reduce the problem but simply saying don't do it leave it to the honor system has shown it doesn't work.  The problem the small majority you don't want to be on the receiving end in a society the government has the job of protecting the majority even if it makes the minority unhappy. There isn't in any country enough manpower to enforce a major part of enforcement is putting Doubt in driver head that is What stops us from the west Driving all of us have been stopped for violations and when you pay that fine. Etc..  Need time Doubt that is all it takes a little here and there. Until driver start to have to think about the consequences just like if you to Rob a bank? It really is that simple as many like you know Government particularly the U. S. Have studies for everything in their Transportation department I seen studies how effective a simple question can be in the driver test.  I've said many times If I take a handful of people from this forum and was able to apply our wisdom and experience Thailand will be one of the best and safest country to drive,. 

[pedro01]

What a quandary, eh?

 

Maybe a hub would help.

[Mitkof Island]

Talk to the so called Health Minister maybe he has some more bright ideas.

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Mitkof Island