sirineou Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 15 minutes ago, tgw said: But it doesn't make what Putin is doing right. I never said that it was, I only said that it sounds to me a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 5 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said: You seem to assume Russia is going to win. You may be making the same mistake as Putin and thinking too much about politics and power and not enough about the effect morality and ethics is having on the people and soldiers on both sides. Around the world too. Cynicism about politics and power and human nature can only take you so far. Russia has lost control and influence in neighbouring nations through it's own actions. This effort to reverse it's decrease in influence is showing to be a disaster. Ukraine has decided one side is better for its' interests than the other. The human toll is terrible but Ukrainians have decided that given the alternative of living under the control of a thug it is best to fight. Nonetheless, whether Kyiv falls is to many observers a matter of when, rather than if. To this point, it remains somewhat of a mystery what Putin would do with a nation the size of Ukraine. Splitting up the country might be the most likely option. However, it is not without severe difficulties. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/russia-ukraine-war-what-is-putins-endgame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, sirineou said: I never said that it was, I only said that it sounds to me a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. It's always easy to point to potential or actual war crimes and injustices perpetrated by any country but we shouldn't allow such comparisons to excuse the behavior of any country. Instead they should all be considered separately according to their own circumstances and merits. Should Milosovich been let off the hook because Hitler killed more people? Obviously not. It isn't helpful to engage in whataboutery for this reason. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughrection Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 On 3/18/2022 at 10:11 AM, TorquayFan said: Or to pose it differently, if Russia's unprovoked destruction of Ukraine and the murder of tens of thousands of Ukrainians is NOT a war crime then FGS what is?? Now .... substitute America for Russia and Ukraine for Iraq & will you come to the same conclusion? Take out Russia and put England and then substitute Ukraine for Ireland.???? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 2 hours ago, hughrection said: Now .... substitute America for Russia and Ukraine for Iraq & will you come to the same conclusion? Even if true and I agree it was to some extent (gassing 5000 Kurds some 15 years previously is a mitigation) does that somehow excuse Putin? Did he not commit war crimes and crimes against humanity? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughrection Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 1 minute ago, ozimoron said: Even if true and I agree it was to some extent (gassing 5000 Kurds some 15 years previously is a mitigation) does that somehow excuse Putin? Did he not commit war crimes and crimes against humanity? Yes, agree but tired of people forgetting what has occurred before. Try them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ozimoron Posted March 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) 1 minute ago, hughrection said: Yes, agree but tired of people forgetting what has occurred before. Try them all. Nobody is forgetting, they are just keeping on topic. The topic is Putin and Ukraine. Now. At least you conceded the point, several Putin apologists didn't. Edited March 19, 2022 by ozimoron 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bkk Brian Posted March 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 19, 2022 Plenty of war crimes being evidenced. "We've never seen a situation where there's so much evidence of war crimes and so much engagement with the accountability community in that evidence. You just have to look at our civilian harm map to get a sense of that." Hospitals Bombed and Apartments Destroyed: Mapping Incidents of Civilian Harm in Ukraine With more videos and images coming to light each day, Bellingcat and members of its Global Authentication Project have begun to log and map these incidents on an interactive TimeMap. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/03/17/hospitals-bombed-and-apartments-destroyed-mapping-incidents-of-civilian-harm-in-ukraine/ Ukraine: Deadly Attacks Kill, Injure Civilians, Destroy Homes Explosive Weapons Leave People Dead, Wounded, Homeless; Damage Vital Infrastructure More than 450 civilians were reportedly killed or injured in the first 11 days of the war, in Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second largest city, as a result of Russian airstrikes and artillery shelling of populated areas, Human Rights Watch said today. The attacks damaged civilian buildings, including apartment blocks, schools, places of worship, and shops, impeding access to food and medicines. They also damaged infrastructure in the city causing civilians to lose vital services such as electricity, heat, and water. Human Rights Watch identified Russian use of cluster munitions and explosive weapons with wide-area effect in heavily populated areas in Kharkiv, in apparent indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks. Indiscriminate shelling in heavily populated areas violates international humanitarian law and may constitute a war crime. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/18/ukraine-deadly-attacks-kill-injure-civilians-destroy-homes 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onthedarkside Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 A number of posts have been removed for making unsourced and unsubstantiated claims and for being off-topic / diversionary, along with ensuing replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post impulse Posted March 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 19, 2022 3 hours ago, tgw said: There are more than one former member of US government that should have been tried for war crimes and other crimes. But it doesn't make what Putin is doing right. True indeed. But it does make Biden a hypocrite. And very hard to take seriously... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bbko Posted March 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 19, 2022 tUucker cArlson and the rest of the far right chimpanzees think they are patriots, 55555. They think if they wrap themselves in the American flag, their beliefs are above questioning. F them, they are the epitome of anti-freedom, it's obvious to many, the GOP has become home for the far right. I'll never vote for another GOP politician again; signed a 24 year military retiree. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 6 hours ago, ozimoron said: Even if true and I agree it was to some extent (gassing 5000 Kurds some 15 years previously is a mitigation) does that somehow excuse Putin? Did he not commit war crimes and crimes against humanity? The whole point of the whataboutary is precisely that, excuse Putin. Utterly disgusting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, impulse said: True indeed. But it does make Biden a hypocrite. And very hard to take seriously... Make no mistake about this, Putin is taking Biden very seriously and Xi has been put on notice to do likewise. And this is the whole point ironically, perhaps deliberately, being missed by Putin’s excusers when they engage in their whataboutary. The US is a democracy, the citizens vote and change the whole administration, by this means the nation changes direction, not so a totalitarian dictatorship. Now step back and observe the correlation between admiration of, even outright praising of Putin and efforts to restrict and undermine voting rights in the US and elsewhere. Edited March 19, 2022 by Chomper Higgot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jingthing Posted March 19, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 19, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Make no mistake about this, Putin is taking Biden very seriously and Xi has been put on notice to do likewise. And this is the whole point ironically, perhaps deliberately, being missed by Putin’s excusers when they engage in their whataboutary. The US is a democracy, the citizens vote and change the whole administration, by this means the nation changes direction, not so a totalitarian dictatorship. Now step back and observe the correlation between admiration of, even outright praising of Putin and efforts to restrict and undermine voting rights in the US and elsewhere. Biden correctly has painted the current global struggle as between democracy and autocracy. Rules based international affairs where sovereign nations borders are respected vs. raw power based. Biden is doing an excellent job in uniting the democracy world into a very strong coalition. He's not into unilateralism. But there is a deep problem. The republican party which will likely take over congress very soon is on the autocracy side. Their leader is still dictator loving Putin massaging Mr. Trump. So the U.S. has weak credibility on this now because of this internal division. This internal division is a big reason Putin (and probably Xi) see big opportunity time, though it appears Putin has probably and hopefully made a fatal mistake. Putin MUST be defeated in Ukraine. This is much much bigger than Ukraine. The EU, particularly and ironically Germany, may be stepping in to the old role of the U.S., as they will have much more credibility in international leadership assuming the dark anti-democracy pro autocracy Trumpist forces win in 22 and 24. Edited March 19, 2022 by Jingthing 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1FinickyOne Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 15 minutes ago, Jingthing said: Nobody in their right mind Nobody indeed. I think that the water or air has been poisoned and most people are suffering a severe decline in IQ points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarshall Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 9 hours ago, ozimoron said: You're speculating and then accusing others of doing the same thing. All talk of the future is speculation. You are not speculating. You are expressing your wishes, which are irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarshall Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 9 hours ago, ozimoron said: Popular protest has erupted worldwide, including in Russia. In the first nine days of Russia’s new war, more than 1,800 public demonstrations protested its unprovoked aggression, according to the independent research organization ACLED. The protests, across at least 93 countries and territories, included at least 150 demonstrations in Russia, “95 percent of which were met with state intervention,” https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/03/global-resistance-putins-war-historic Protests have sprung in Moscow and other Russian cities since the attack began in the early morning hours of Feb. 24. As of Thursday, more than 8,000 people had been detained at anti-war protests across the country, according to tracking by OVD-Info. And several billionaire oligarchs – arguably the most powerful group of people in Russia other than Putin himself – have spoken out against the attack. https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-03-04/war-weary-russians-threaten-trouble-for-vladimir-putin-amid-ukraine-attack That will change nothing. The Russian dissidents are not going to overthrow Putin. Putin will ignore the anti-war protests just as the Bush Administration ignored the massive protests against his illegal war in Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarshall Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 9 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said: You seem to assume Russia is going to win. You may be making the same mistake as Putin and thinking too much about politics and power and not enough about the effect morality and ethics is having on the people and soldiers on both sides. Around the world too. Cynicism about politics and power and human nature can only take you so far. Russia has lost control and influence in neighbouring nations through it's own actions. This effort to reverse it's decrease in influence is showing to be a disaster. Ukraine has decided one side is better for its' interests than the other. The human toll is terrible but Ukrainians have decided that given the alternative of living under the control of a thug it is best to fight. Morality and ethics have as small a role in this conflict as they had in the illegal American war on Iraq, which is to say none. Putin is going to achieve his goal of destroying Ukraine. He probably won't annex all of it, but Zelenskyy's successor's will think twice before they say the word "NATO" again. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarshall Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 Here's the opinion of former US Ambassador to the USSR, Jack Matlock on the current Ukraine crisis: Was this crisis predictable? Absolutely. NATO expansion was the most profound strategic blunder made since the end of the Cold War. In 1997, when the question of adding more NATO members arose, I was asked to testify before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. In my introductory remarks, I made the following statement: “I consider the administration’s recommendation to take new members into NATO at this time misguided. If it should be approved by the United States Senate, it may well go down in history as the most profound strategic blunder made since the end of the Cold War. Far from improving the security of the United States, its Allies, and the nations that wish to enter the Alliance, it could well encourage a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat to this nation since the Soviet Union collapsed.” Indeed, our nuclear arsenals were capable of ending the possibility of civilization on Earth. https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-the-ukraine-crisis-and-how-conflict-can-be-avoided/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, cmarshall said: That will change nothing. The Russian dissidents are not going to overthrow Putin. Putin will ignore the anti-war protests just as the Bush Administration ignored the massive protests against his illegal war in Iraq. I never claimed it would. If memory served me rightly, you claimed no opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 47 minutes ago, cmarshall said: Here's the opinion of former US Ambassador to the USSR, Jack Matlock on the current Ukraine crisis: Was this crisis predictable? Absolutely. NATO expansion was the most profound strategic blunder made since the end of the Cold War. In 1997, when the question of adding more NATO members arose, I was asked to testify before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. In my introductory remarks, I made the following statement: “I consider the administration’s recommendation to take new members into NATO at this time misguided. If it should be approved by the United States Senate, it may well go down in history as the most profound strategic blunder made since the end of the Cold War. Far from improving the security of the United States, its Allies, and the nations that wish to enter the Alliance, it could well encourage a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat to this nation since the Soviet Union collapsed.” Indeed, our nuclear arsenals were capable of ending the possibility of civilization on Earth. https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-the-ukraine-crisis-and-how-conflict-can-be-avoided/ An isolationist, Reaganite policy think tank. It's irrational to think that the US' best interests are served by not engaging in foreign policy. The alternative was t sit back and allow Russia to re-establish the Soviet Union by force. NATO is nothing more than a deterrent against fascism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarshall Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 29 minutes ago, ozimoron said: I never claimed it would. If memory served me rightly, you claimed no opposition. Your memory serves you poorly. There is no significant opposition to Putin in Russia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmarshall Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 22 minutes ago, ozimoron said: An isolationist, Reaganite policy think tank. It's irrational to think that the US' best interests are served by not engaging in foreign policy. The alternative was t sit back and allow Russia to re-establish the Soviet Union by force. NATO is nothing more than a deterrent against fascism. What you and the others looking for a Hollywood ending have failed to notice is that returning Ukraine to Russian control as it has been for eighty of the last one hundred years has absolutely no security implications for the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat is a type of crazy Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, cmarshall said: Morality and ethics have as small a role in this conflict as they had in the illegal American war on Iraq, which is to say none. Putin is going to achieve his goal of destroying Ukraine. He probably won't annex all of it, but Zelenskyy's successor's will think twice before they say the word "NATO" again. It is obvious that good does not always wins against evil and that this will not have a Hollywood ending. Of course, there is no such ending for the dead, and many lives and cities are devastated. I am just saying that normal people's sense of morality is having a big impact on this battle. It is obvious to note that the Ukrainian reaction, and outrage around the world, is resulting in huge support to Ukraine, and a prolonged war for Putin, and is dealing a huge blow to the Russian economy. I guess I am just pointing out that your argument of the inevitability of a Russian victory, based on power and selective history, is being offset by people's moral outrage and this has lead to Putin becoming a much diminished figure and Russia seriously struggling to succeed in their war. Edited March 20, 2022 by Fat is a type of crazy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 1 hour ago, cmarshall said: Your memory serves you poorly. There is no significant opposition to Putin in Russia. well I was right, the opposition I quoted was quite significant. I understand you have an intense desire to downplay it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, cmarshall said: What you and the others looking for a Hollywood ending have failed to notice is that returning Ukraine to Russian control as it has been for eighty of the last one hundred years has absolutely no security implications for the US. It has security implications for the Ukrainians and the Modovians and that's the point. The US was never concerned that Russian control of the Ukraine was a threat to the US itself. Russian control over Ukraine now would be devastating to the Ukrainians who have suffered so much due to indiscriminant attacks amounting to war crimes. While Russia occupies Ukraine the sanctions will remain. The only scenario in which they are likely to be lifted is Putin in The Hague. Edited March 20, 2022 by ozimoron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FritsSikkink Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 14 hours ago, ozimoron said: When did the US or any Western nation indiscriminantly bomb civilians in a continued and methodical way? Or machine gun thousands of kids and bury them in secret mass graves? Every day: The US has dropped 326,000 bombs on people in other countries since 2001, Most Recently in Syria (juancole.com) Trump’s Military Drops a Bomb Every 12 Minutes, and No One Is Talking About It - Truthdig Trump and Biden's secret bombing wars: One thing that hasn't changed | Salon.com Opinion | Trump & Biden’s Secret Bombing Wars | Medea Benjamin (commondreams.org) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FritsSikkink Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 14 hours ago, Bkk Brian said: I was referring to Putin which is what this topic is about and what is going on right now in the Ukraine There are bombs being dropped on a daily basis in many more countries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted March 20, 2022 Share Posted March 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said: Every day: The US has dropped 326,000 bombs on people in other countries since 2001, Most Recently in Syria (juancole.com) Trump’s Military Drops a Bomb Every 12 Minutes, and No One Is Talking About It - Truthdig Trump and Biden's secret bombing wars: One thing that hasn't changed | Salon.com Opinion | Trump & Biden’s Secret Bombing Wars | Medea Benjamin (commondreams.org) which of those represents "indiscriminantly bomb civilians in a continued and methodical way" as my post mentions? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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