Opinion: American and western arrogance will lose this region to China’s influence

[relax33]

7 hours ago, placnx said:

So tell us how many of these outbound are not in regimented group tours?

It's immaterial if they come singly or in tour groups.
Many would first go with tour groups or friends on their first trip n then travel on their own thereafter, just like folks in most other places will do ..
For those on tour groups, the tour guides are largely locals originating from the country they are visiting n everything is a commercial setup  where the participant is a consumer who expects a satisfactory user experience  ..

It's not like these Chinese tourists are herded around by some PLA (People's Liberation Army) cadres  n told when to stand or sit .. ha
And they can bail out from these tours anytime they want (which some do) n many do extend their stay to explore on  their own after the tour has ended.
Most of the larger tour agencies are entities that are openly traded on the Chinese, US n HK Stock exchanges .

[relax33]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:14 PM, placnx said:

In China time will tell whether Emperor Xi will benefit the Chinese people. Maybe rule by committee is safer.

Actually, there is a committee but he has gain control of both the Upper n Lower house.
The problem is that too much power does corrupt a person. over time.
There used to be a 2 term limit that was written into the constitution to prevent this  but that has been recently rescinded.
But there is still a Board of Directors comprising of seniors from the powerful "founding revolutionary families" that he has to appease.
The CCP is an organization that is founded through a revolution that arose from public discontent .
It is thus ever mindful of this n strives to avoid being a  victim of it to preserve its existence. 
It thus is constantly gauging public sentiment n is fairly  quick to rectify mistakes made (though this still take years).

[sscc]

6 hours ago, relax33 said:

It's immaterial if they come singly or in tour groups.
Many would first go with tour groups or friends on their first trip n then travel on their own thereafter, just like folks in most other places will do ..
For those on tour groups, the tour guides are largely locals originating from the country they are visiting n everything is a commercial setup  where the participant is a consumer who expects a satisfactory user experience  ..

It's not like these Chinese tourists are herded around by some PLA (People's Liberation Army) cadres  n told when to stand or sit .. ha
And they can bail out from these tours anytime they want (which some do) n many do extend their stay to explore on  their own after the tour has ended.
Most of the larger tour agencies are entities that are openly traded on the Chinese, US n HK Stock exchanges .

 

What you wrote is all true except a very small point. 

Extension of stay halfway during the trip is complicated and very costly.  It is about the return plane ticket change ---  changing cost is likely even higher than own-purchasing a brand new ONE-Way ticket to return home and tearing up the return leg of the original ticket.    

 

However,  while booking the trip at homeland,  there is the option for an own-selected return date.  Just need to decide and advise the homeland agency at time of booking. 

 

Too much BS on Chinese Tour not spending money.   

They all goes to Ladyboy Show while staying in Bangkok, Pattaya, and Phuket.  ( 90 % of Ladyboy show customers are Asians ) 

Thai Ladyboy are doing their show for free to the Chinese Tour ? 

 

Chinese tourists,  in tour group or individual travel,   money spending pattern is different from farang way,  while so many ignorant type ( particularly farangs ) are spreading the ................... whatever rumors. 

 

   

I

 

 

 

[sscc]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:08 AM, candide said:

It's not only about being isolated. They are embrigated since primary school in pioneer organisations. On top of it,  all non- teaching activities, including at universities, are organised by the CCP. The CCP itself has around 900,000 members, which is huge, even in relation to the size of the population.

 

But that was not directly my point. My point was that those educated abroad are not only broadly supporting the government, but also buying nearly every piece of propaganda. For example, I know well some of them currently staying abroad. They are smart and educated, exposed to information about Ukraine from free media, and this is not an issue which affects them or their country directly, i.e. it's not a nationalistic issue such as Taiwan. Still, they always seem to parrot the position of Chinese authorities when we have a discussion about it.

 

 

CCP members  :    90 million .    ( not 900,000 as you wrote )   

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

Where do wealthy and influential Asians send their kids to be educated?

 

 

[Saanim]

37 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Where do wealthy and influential Asians send their kids to be educated?

 

 

I would guess that in a country with high literacy rate. 

[sscc]

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Where do wealthy and influential Asians send their kids to be educated?

 

 

 

Many Asians study aboard in the Western countries.  And a very, very large segment are from China.

 

Virtually everything including university institutions for this discussion,  the Chinese attitude is to open up, find out and judge based on merits,  learn from the better or higher up and then use/apply the know-how.    The learning process may be aboard or within China,   it does not matter. 

 

In this case,  Western universities are overall  better Chinese Universities by big margin. 

(  University institutions in PRC are creeping up,  but they move forward at a slow pace and very much lagging in quantity too )  

 

 

Now once you look hard enough and notice there are NOT many JAPANESE kids/students heading out to study in the West,  you suddenly see another angle.   Japan Universities are not superb and also lagged behind Western ones by good margin.     Japan peculiar culture of maintaining a  homogenous society as one of top priority and hesitate about any infiltration of foreign concept or way is the main reason why not many Japanese kids are studying outside. 

 

And so understandably,  you know in the learning curve,   whether Chinese or Japanese are doing better.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 minutes ago, sscc said:

 

Many Asians study aboard in the Western countries.  And a very, very large segment are from China.

 

Virtually everything including university institutions for this discussion,  the Chinese attitude is to open up, find out and judge based on merits,  learn from the better or higher up and then use/apply the know-how.    The learning process may be aboard or within China,   it does not matter. 

 

In this case,  Western universities are overall  better Chinese Universities by big margin. 

(  University institutions in PRC are creeping up,  but they move forward at a slow pace and very much lagging in quantity too )  

 

 

Now once you look hard enough and notice there are NOT many JAPANESE kids/students heading out to study in the West,  you suddenly see another angle.   Japan Universities are not superb and also lagged behind Western ones by good margin.     Japan peculiar culture of maintaining a  homogenous society as one of top priority and hesitate about any infiltration of foreign concept or way is the main reason why not many Japanese kids are studying outside. 

 

And so understandably,  you know in the learning curve,   whether Chinese or Japanese are doing better.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s not simply a matter of academic excellence, indeed in terms of cultural influence academic excellence is hardly an important measure.

 

Far more important is exposure to ideas and social discourse.

 

China offers compliance to a totalitarian framework,  not so universities in liberal democracies.

[sscc]

42 minutes ago, placnx said:

It's interesting how you managed to make a statement by @sandyf appear to be by me! (the "rubbish" quote)

 

It wouldn't be easy for most Chinese to expatriate. How could they get enough money out of the country? OK, there are economic migrants - illegals washing dishes in Chinese restaurants. That was before Covid. As for asylum, that's only available to high-profile people who have great difficulty leaving China. They could not sign up for an innocuous group tour.

 

As for mass tourism, the ID and surveillance system (much originating in Europe) is very effective in making blacklists to deny passports.

 

I have been to China quite a few times, thanks, and the BBC has done an excellent job in reporting on China. Their reporters even speak Chinese, so much more effective than the roaming correspondents of other networks.

 

In which period did you visit China ?  The timeline makes a big difference. 

 

As to the other point on your last paragraph,   The British mainstream media and USA mainstream media had noticeably going downhill from 2016 onward.   Why 2016 ?    Of course it was about  British voting out of EU  as well as controversial  Trump campaigning during much of the year,  well, Hillary Clinton was obviously not a  "clean-cut"  figure either.     So the British and USA media take the liberty and sub-consciously doing whatever and eroding the journalistic professionalism gained over decades/centuries.   

 

Fast-forwarding,  it is about   The West Vs China,   The West Vs Russia  and add on The West Vs North Korea .   (  Western media had no time for  Young Kim nowadays ) .   So the nosediving of British media and USA media is too conspicuous nowadays

 

" Big BS Corporation" 

" Biased Broadcasting Corporation" 

nicks came with a reason

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, sscc said:

 

In which period did you visit China ?  The timeline makes a big difference. 

 

As to the other point on your last paragraph,   The British mainstream media and USA mainstream media had noticeably going downhill from 2016 onward.   Why 2016 ?    Of course it was about  British voting out of EU  as well as controversial  Trump campaigning during much of the year,  well, Hillary Clinton was obviously not a  "clean-cut"  figure either.     So the British and USA media take the liberty and sub-consciously doing whatever and eroding the journalistic professionalism gained over decades/centuries.   

 

Fast-forwarding,  it is about   The West Vs China,   The West Vs Russia  and add on The West Vs North Korea .   (  Western media had no time for  Young Kim nowadays ) .   So the nosediving of British media and USA media is too conspicuous nowadays

 

" Big BS Corporation" 

" Biased Broadcasting Corporation" 

nicks came with a reason

 

 

 

 

Now you’ve given us your carefully constructed arguments against Western News Media and in doing so destroyed our trust in these sources, where do you recommend we should go for unbiased factual news reporting?

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

I understand that SE Asia or Pacific don’t matter. Europe, Arabian Gulf, NE Asia matter. 

It matters not what you think you understand.

[relax33]

5 hours ago, sscc said:

What you wrote is all true except a very small point. 

Extension of stay halfway during the trip is complicated and very costly.  It is about the return plane ticket change ---  changing cost is likely even higher than own-purchasing a brand new ONE-Way ticket to return home and tearing up the return leg of the original ticket.    

You are right.
Was actually trying to clarify things for people who may think that Chinese tourists are coming in on 1950s commie style regimented tours whereby their movements are highly regulated which is really funny .. ha

They have total freedom whenever they travel abroad just like any western tourist would have n would spare no expense to stay out of their country or out of any  tour arrangement  if they are unhappy with it. 
The Chinese also happen to be the biggest buyers of International property in 2019.
They spent 30 bil usd in the US n 5 bil usd in Thailand alone with more than 90% of the purchases being paid in cash with zero financing..

So having to re-purchase a new air ticket or pay for extended hotel bookings n tour expenses  is really chump change compared to this. ..
Of cos am not saying that all of them do that, just that they could easily afford to do so if they feel like it.

Quite a few who bought Thai condos were  on all expenses paid trips dished out by Thai property developers too.

[metisdead]

A post in which the quoted content was attributed to another member has been removed as well as the ensuing replies. 

[relax33]

American and western arrogance will lose this region to China’s influence

 Adding fuel to the fire ...
Actually this sentence is illogically phrased.
One always loses a competition through lack of ability, not through arrogance .
In this case, it is the ability to attract n inspire that is lacking.

In fact, it is arrogant for one to ever think that he or she  can lose out on anything through "arrogance" .
The failure to humbly acknowledge one's weakness n improve is what will inhibit progress ..
 

[sscc]

 

Latest news related to foreign affair of this region is Singapore Prime Minister Lee went and met Biden in Washington, DC  in late March while the special  USA-ASEAN Summit proposed by USA in March or May 2022 has been postponed indefinitely. 

 

Meanwhile,  Foreign Minsters of Thailand, Indonesia, Myanmar and Philippines went and met China Foreign Minister in China in early April 2022.   

 

 

Nowadays,  trade between China and ASEAN  doubles in figure to the trade between USA and ASEAN.  Somehow USA offered 100 million aid package to ASEAN a month ago.  (  Sorry, this amount does not impress ASEAN   ) . 

 

 

[seajae]

 thai ministers/govt like people/countries that kiss ar*e and will hand over big envelopes/cake boxes, something china has no problems doing but the west are more reluctant to do so, has nothing to do with arrogance. This can be seen with everything the govt ministers do, nothing gets done here unless someone is getting a nice pay packet from the ones wanting to do it, this applies to all govt contracts etc, Thailand thrives on graft and corruption and china specializes in it

[Adumbration]

The region is already lost to China.  Worthless article.

 

When China moves on Taiwan it will demand allegiance from all of its indebted belt and road countries, including Thailand.  When that happens western farangs here can, at best, expect to lose their visas.

[placeholder]

On 4/1/2022 at 12:45 PM, sscc said:

 

In which period did you visit China ?  The timeline makes a big difference. 

 

As to the other point on your last paragraph,   The British mainstream media and USA mainstream media had noticeably going downhill from 2016 onward.   Why 2016 ?    Of course it was about  British voting out of EU  as well as controversial  Trump campaigning during much of the year,  well, Hillary Clinton was obviously not a  "clean-cut"  figure either.     So the British and USA media take the liberty and sub-consciously doing whatever and eroding the journalistic professionalism gained over decades/centuries.   

 

Fast-forwarding,  it is about   The West Vs China,   The West Vs Russia  and add on The West Vs North Korea .   (  Western media had no time for  Young Kim nowadays ) .   So the nosediving of British media and USA media is too conspicuous nowadays

 

" Big BS Corporation" 

" Biased Broadcasting Corporation" 

nicks came with a reason

"nicks came with a reason"

Yes, they appeal to the reflexive thought processes of certain parties.

[placeholder]

On 4/1/2022 at 2:04 AM, relax33 said:

You know these days using the words “So tell us how”  followed by blah blah  is dangerous as it would be viewed as “condescending”.
Even Fortune 500 bosses are wary of doing so to their underlings as they can lose their jobs for it.

Chinese people certainly have an interest in becoming familiar with the US
Just laying out the facts to say that these two countries are actually pretty close to one another (at least politically); not mortal enemies like what the press spins it to be ..
They were inviting each other’s generals as guests to view military exercises just 10 years ago.

Things only turned sour when the US found that it’s very close to losing it’s position as the world’s economic power and got paranoia ; which is understandable as countries in history do go through this stage of  “denial “when the baton is being passed.  

brainwash
sorry, was not referring to anyone in particular..

Just saw the words “brainwash” being used repeatedly so tried to put some perspective to it ..

You are spot on to say VPN is a cat n mouse game ..

Among other things, China building island and planting military bases in support of it claim that the South China Sea is its property has nothing to do with it? How do those nations that share that same sea with China feel about that?

[placeholder]

On 3/30/2022 at 2:15 PM, placnx said:

People in China have rarely been prosperous. China since early times has been a state or statelets based on "rule by law", which means control and repression of the masses. Power and wealth were intertwined, as wealth could not be kept without power to suppress moves for confiscation. Note the moves in the last year by Xi to suppress the power and wealth of the tech companies and their founder/owners.

 

In contrast, "rule of law" protects individuals and their property from arbitrary edicts such as those which Xi recently implemented. For decades, since the opening by Deng Xiao Ping, investment in real estate has been the vehicle for common people to try to get a return on their savings. Now many will suffer with XI's crackdown on the big real estate companies. And the urban middle class won't be indulging in Gucci, if that is what you mean by happiness.  

Xi's sins, in relation to real estate companies, was not cracking down on them but allowing the banking system to finance their dubious growth in the first place. Much of this was allowed because provincial and local governments derived a lot of their revenue from selling land to the major property development companies. Huge developments with no hope of substantial occupancy were built in 2nd and 3rd tier cities. But it did artificially stimulate the economy and make China's growth look stronger than it really was.

[Isaan sailor]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Among other things, China building island and planting military bases in support of it claim that the South China Sea is its property has nothing to do with it? How do those nations that share that same sea with China feel about that?

China keeps bullying their way into the South Pacific area.  Not many countries can stand up to them.  Only a coalition of USA and affected countries can fend off Chinese aggression.  And a looming trade war would hurt both superpowers.

[bangkokbonecollector]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:15 AM, webfact said:

Beijings growing military and economic might.

Do you actually know a term called 'investigative journalism'. Why don't you go and see how much of the over 1 trillion $ borrowed for their spanking new high speed rail line has been paid back. Their military is also untested and nobody knows if these shiny toys actually work in a real battle situation.

[relax33]

On 4/3/2022 at 1:12 PM, placeholder said:

On 4/1/2022 at 4:34 AM, relax33 said:

You know these days using the words “So tell us how”  followed by blah blah  is dangerous as it would be viewed as “condescending”.
Even Fortune 500 bosses are wary of doing so to their underlings as they can lose their jobs for it.

Chinese people certainly have an interest in becoming familiar with the US
Just laying out the facts to say that these two countries are actually pretty close to one another (at least politically); not mortal enemies like what the press spins it to be ..
They were inviting each other’s generals as guests to view military exercises just 10 years ago.

Things only turned sour when the US found that it’s very close to losing it’s position as the world’s economic power and got paranoia ; which is understandable as countries in history do go through this stage of  “denial “when the baton is being passed.  

brainwash
sorry, was not referring to anyone in particular..

Just saw the words “brainwash” being used repeatedly so tried to put some perspective to it ..

You are spot on to say VPN is a cat n mouse game ..

Expand  

Among other things, China building island and planting military bases in support of it claim that the South China Sea is its property has nothing to do with it? How do those nations that share that same sea with China feel about that?

Look to anybody that knows English that  we are talking about two different things here ..
Is it another way to deflect attention when one cannot factually defend one's position .. ha

How about the US invasion of iraq where they found  that there was actually no nuke weapons  .. ha

[placnx]

On 4/1/2022 at 1:54 PM, sscc said:

Now once you look hard enough and notice there are NOT many JAPANESE kids/students heading out to study in the West,  you suddenly see another angle.   Japan Universities are not superb and also lagged behind Western ones by good margin.     Japan peculiar culture of maintaining a  homogenous society as one of top priority and hesitate about any infiltration of foreign concept or way is the main reason why not many Japanese kids are studying outside. 

In the past the route to a good job for a Japanese student was through graduation from a prestigious Japanese university, unless they were planning to work in the family company. So one such friend in Tokyo studied at NYU (New York University). I remember another Japanese whose dad was a Japanese diplomat and was educated abroad. He ended up staying in Paris because he lacked a Japanese education. 

[placnx]

On 4/3/2022 at 12:17 PM, placeholder said:

Xi's sins, in relation to real estate companies, was not cracking down on them but allowing the banking system to finance their dubious growth in the first place. Much of this was allowed because provincial and local governments derived a lot of their revenue from selling land to the major property development companies. Huge developments with no hope of substantial occupancy were built in 2nd and 3rd tier cities. But it did artificially stimulate the economy and make China's growth look stronger than it really was.

This real estate problem started long before Xi. I remember someone in HK in the 90s, at one time head of the local American Chamber of COmmerce, telling me that he would invest in anything in China except for real estate! Xi's move to go after these real estate companies will now undermine financing of local government. It may also cut off the extra (corrupt) income of local officials, though.