Opinion: American and western arrogance will lose this region to China’s influence

[relax33]

This is what a fellow american wrote on the subject;
We are in an unsustainable path. We have ruled the world because of the US dollar being set as the World Reserve Currency (WRC) through the post WW2 Brenton Woods agreement, but that has made us lazy leading to the trade deficit that has been going on for decades. Until 1971, that wasn't too bad as dollars were backed by gold, but since then it's been pure paper fiat, and most dollars, some 98.5%, are not even made of paper. The WRC status has led to our losing industry and in fact is also the reason for the immigration crisis. We import goods, and export dollars we create out of thin air. Your measure of success being "continue to prosper" is complete fallacious because we are prospering due to importing goods from other countries while passing them junk currency.
We in the USA are, in effect, international counterfeiters, extracting goods and services from the world while giving nothing of value in return. And we back this with our military might. No, the US empire is coming to an end, and I expect China will replace us. The best thing for us to do is push for a decentralized crypto as a world reserve currency as otherwise, it will be the Yuan

[Enzian]

For those on here who still don't appreciate how far back goes the influence of the Chinese in Thailand, I will again recommend The Crown and the Capitalists: The Ethnic Chinese and the Founding of the Thai Nation, by Wasana Wongsurawat, published in 2019 by Silkworm Books.

[ftpjtm]

1 hour ago, humbug said:

When you have greedy generals and chinese/thai business elite

I wonder what the wealthy Thais, who lean towards China politically (while vacationing in the west and sending their kids to universities in the west) think of Xi's crack down on wealthy Chinese?

[Longwood50]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

I find that naive that you think it doesn't happen.

Oh I am not naive and I don't doubt that some of it happens.  However, it is not a standard operating practice at most U.S. corporations the way it is a typical business practice in places like China and Mexico. 

If money leaves a corporation in the USA the accounting firm that audits the books is going forced to uncover where that money went and for what purpose.  If it was determined it was a bribe, the auditor would be required to inform the government of the infraction.  So it is not even close to being as widespread as it is in other parts of the world. 

[edwinchester]

10 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

After the eight years of incompetence, it was too late...a fait accompli.

Trump didn't even try, he continually praised Xi even as far as saying the Chinese were doing a very professional job with covid despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Launched a disastrous tariff war with China that cost thousands of US jobs, alienated countless Asian and European Govts which furthered China's global ambitions, refused to condemn Chinese human rights abuses, withdrew from the Trans Pacific Partnership and did everything he could to undermine the UN which left a vacuum in world leadership China was only to willing to try and seize. Trump was an unmitigated disaster as far as increasing China's role and influence on the world stage.

Edited March 28, 2022 by edwinchester

[sharecropper]

4 hours ago, vandeventer said:

Just look at the USA today! You really think Biden is doing a good job? Trump did more for the USA and the world since Reagan.

I think Biden is less dangerous that that idiot Trump, that's for sure. Instead of a revolution, you need a new crop of younger politicians who aren't uneducated morons, senile, fascists, secessionists or racists.

[humbug]

59 minutes ago, Enzian said:

For those on here who still don't appreciate how far back goes the influence of the Chinese in Thailand, I will again recommend The Crown and the Capitalists: The Ethnic Chinese and the Founding of the Thai Nation, by Wasana Wongsurawat, published in 2019 by Silkworm Books.

Junk reading, and absolute nonsense, Chinese emigrated en masse 140 years ago, not before, and this land goes back 2000 years not 140 years, but whatever thai/chinese books floats your boat, and this land speaks a language based on pali and sanskrit not mandarin, but you know that, and the tai tribe is just not important compared to the Lavo kingdoms, vedic and mon which gave this land Budhism, languages, songkran, loy kratong, the founding families of Thonburi came fron the Lavo kingdom, who were in power during Ayudhya period and 1800 years ago

 

But that was the point, to change history and lie to the people of the past 2000 years of history, and push this crazy idea that siam was really influenced by tai, and change the name from Siam to Thailand, which was one big con as mentioned above, when in reality this land has been hugely influenced by Lavo, vedic, mon, and through vedic, alsi influence of khmer and javanese

 

 

[cncltd1973]

12 hours ago, Pattaya Spotter said:

I wouldn't call it "arrogance" that is costing Western influence to decline in Asia/SE Asia...more a combination of incompetent (President Obama did nothing to counter Beijing while it built-up its militarized "string of pearls" in the South China Sea during his administration) and China resuming its historical place as the dominant economic and political power in the region.

Good point. I would take it a step farther and say the west lost interest when the kingdom chose a  military government via a coupe, instead of of democracy. The path they chose is no longer parallel to the ours and their future is aligned by choice to China, so they've lost a seat at the table. The coupe wasn't bloody like Myanmar's, but their rivals are still excluded from politics and protesters do go missing and jailed, and corruption can't be named; so that's Thailand's choice and the company they keep will change - that's on them 100%

Edited March 28, 2022 by cncltd1973
self censure

[zzaa09]

1 hour ago, Enzian said:

For those on here who still don't appreciate how far back goes the influence of the Chinese in Thailand, I will again recommend The Crown and the Capitalists: The Ethnic Chinese and the Founding of the Thai Nation, by Wasana Wongsurawat, published in 2019 by Silkworm Books.

It's quite obvious that the punditry throughout this thread is impressively reflective of the ignorance and naivete of the Occidental/Eurocentric historical perspective and indoctrination of how things really work. 

[humbug]

1 hour ago, ftpjtm said:

I wonder what the wealthy Thais, who lean towards China politically (while vacationing in the west and sending their kids to universities in the west) think of Xi's crack down on wealthy Chinese?

Some would be part of the Chinese regime like CP group, many would be Han Chinese nationalists, and many would understand the huge corruption and gangster like way of life and business for centuries in China,

 

Chinese society is against rule of law, rule of law gives fairness, Chinese society wants keep its antiquated social class system which is confucism based on the older aryan class systems, this means greed and corruptuon is key, the power struggles in China is more about not letting businesses become more powerful than the state, or control political state holders, so the state becomes the owner of the business, this means thai/chinese businesses know the risk reward, knowing they are always risks with gangster regimes with no rule of law, but in a large way, its how they became large on this land, many of these chinese/thai large corporations have army generals and police generals on their boards or non-executive boards, they play a similar game here, but they all knew, by influencing the generals to sign the belt and road agreements and the 20 year national strategy to allign laws with Beijing on society laws and trade, they all knew it would make them richer 

[humbug]

14 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

It's quite obvious that the punditry throughout this thread is impressively reflective of the ignorance and naivete of the Occidental/Eurocentric historical perspective and indoctrination of how things really work. 

please explain why you think the thai nation is Chinese, why you think this land only goes back 140 years, tai tribe werent even chinese, maybe vietnamese, china wasn't always near north thailand, many times far away

 

so please explain what influence, apart from the fake tai tribe connection, what did the chinese bring to the land, racism against darker skin thais, enslavement of darker skin thais for greed, duck noodles, cheap red plastic chinese temples in corners of rooms?

 

the main language is not mandarin, its based on sanskrit and pali languages, thonburi was created by the lavo kingdom famailies who were vedic, mon, Ayudhya period was lavo kingdom, tai tribe is a fake influence to scam people 80 years ago to believe that they should change from siam to thailand

 

Maybe you should think why people have dark skin live here on a hot land and far away in cold climate China they have light skin

 

maybe you should think why budhism was brought here by the vedic then lavo kingdoms going back 1800 years, with languages, ceremonies like songkran and loy kratong, just maybe you should wonder why the first major immigrant boat came from china in the 1880's,

 

we can all see whats happened since the 1880'd and last 140 years of the chinese invasion of this land and bangkok, but for 2000 years this land was not china, rarely influenced by china, and should not be classed as chinese in any sort of way, until recently through their takeover of business and running of the country, still also a hugely minority race

 

 

[impulse]

There's places in the world where it's extremely difficult to do business without falling afoul of foreign corrupt practices laws, which are a recent western phenomena.  SEA, to a large degree, is one of them. 

 

That basically concedes influence to countries that give tax write offs for bribes as an expense, instead of jail sentences for bribes as a crime. 

 

And it is a recent phenomena.  Imagine the British or Dutch Empires of 200 years ago without the ability to bribe local leaders...

[sscc]

4 hours ago, chilly07 said:

Frankly the USA and "the West" have never in the recent past been influential in SE Asia. China has ruled the roost since WW2 and Thailand like her neighbours is owned by Chinese investors.

World War 2   ended in 1945. 

From 1945 to 1978,   China was in total disarray and in deep trouble --   fighting at least three wars.  mass hunger and death,  own Cultural Revolution ...........etc. 

 

What you wrote showed that  you know little about modern history of China and may be about China Today too. 

[humbug]

20 minutes ago, impulse said:

There's places in the world where it's extremely difficult to do business without falling afoul of foreign corrupt practices laws, which are a recent western phenomena.  SEA, to a large degree, is one of them. 

 

That basically concedes influence to countries that give tax write offs for bribes as an expense, instead of jail sentences for bribes as a crime. 

 

And it is a recent phenomena.  Imagine the British or Dutch Empires of 200 years ago without the ability to bribe local leaders...

yes but eventually the rule of law took over from that older system, no one is naive to say corruption never lasted through now, but the rule of law way gave rise to huge wealth seen in Hong Kongs economic miracle and also Singapore,

 

but now rule of law is no longer in Hong Kong, just huge corruption, and now its fast losing its alure and trust,

 

you have to admire the rules based order of the west, and how it created such wealth around the world, no way China can compete with that

Edited March 28, 2022 by humbug

[Misty]

14 hours ago, Excel said:

"Take Thailand for example, years of neglect by Washington and her allies have ensured that today’s batch of leaders look to Beijing for investment, military equipment, and direction. "

 

I would suggest that is not correct. It is more likely that as the US and the Western nations have cracked down on bribe paying and other corrupt financial activities over the years, Thailand and it's corrupt leaders have gone elsewhere where dodgy deals and back-handers can be undertaken. Nothing to do with neglect by the West, but everything to do with Thailand's regime leaders and benefactors lining their own pockets without ethical or moral considerations.

Agree 100%. And corruption has increased since the 90s when Western educated technocrats played significant roles here.  Nowadays, corruption seems to be in the open.

[TropicalGuy]

Only NE Asia matters re: China. 

China has Zero Friends / Allies ( except N. Korea & Burma) and already surrounded by implacable Capable (Nuclear Armed) Enemies. 
USA, Japan, S. Korea , Taiwan (backed by AUS & UK & IND & RUS, then VIET  / SING/ PHIL). Russia will ally soon with these against China.

 

Chinas Military Very Poor, will soon attempt to invade Taiwan …..and get Crushed. Farewell CCP, Hello Free China. 

[humbug]

3 hours ago, TropicalGuy said:

Only NE Asia matters re: China. 

China has Zero Friends / Allies ( except N. Korea & Burma) and already surrounded by implacable Capable (Nuclear Armed) Enemies. 
USA, Japan, S. Korea , Taiwan (backed by AUS & UK & IND & RUS, then VIET  / SING/ PHIL). Russia will ally soon with these against China.

 

Chinas Military Very Poor, will soon attempt to invade Taiwan …..and get Crushed. Farewell CCP, Hello Free China. 

Very few like the Chinese going back centuries, they are fake, cheat, and very nationalistic, and use immigration to assimilate the local

population to gain influence, and they are jealous of the western ruled based order that has given rise to so much wealth and better standard of fairness in societies

 

Their military will be vastly overhyped with all those space missiiles and copied US planes, but in reality, just as bad as the Russians, huge corruption, poorly paid soldiers, old or bad equipment, and bad war/battle tactics, to see nations like Japan, South Korea and Taiwan spend large amounts on defence against China is a huge plus for the region

[mokwit]

19 hours ago, sandyf said:

What you do not understand is what the Thais understand.

What the Thais understand is that in the 30's about 12% of the people in Thailand were Chinese nationals and a significant percentage of today's population are of Chinese descent.  Nothing whatsoever to do with the west or their arrogance, it is a cultural affiliation, something difficult for foreigners to understand.

Thai Chinese are mostly Tai Chiew (Cantonese) from Guangzhou/Guangdong and their links are to Taiwan and Hong Kong more than the Mandarin speaking mainland. With Chinese being of the same ethnic/linguistic sub group can mean more to ties than politics. Thaksin was close to Singapore Lee because they are both Hakka Chinese. Granted, they are culturally closer to Mainland Chinese than to Americans, but which side of the 'Milk Tea Alliance' were Thais on during the HK crackdowns? Perhaps there is something you don't understand.

Edited March 29, 2022 by mokwit

[mokwit]

19 hours ago, sandyf said:

What you do not understand is what the Thais understand.

What the Thais understand is that in the 30's about 12% of the people in Thailand were Chinese nationals and a significant percentage of today's population are of Chinese descent.  Nothing whatsoever to do with the west or their arrogance, it is a cultural affiliation, something difficult for foreigners to understand.

I worked here, and some of my Thai Chinese colleagues were from very prominent Thai Chines families, so please don't tell me that I don't know that a material proportion of the Thai population, particularly in Bangkok where they predominate,  are of Chinese descent. I probably understand the who's who and what's what of it better than you.

[candide]

On 3/28/2022 at 3:43 AM, Credo said:

Well, there was a president after Obama who did even less.  

 

It's pretty hard to compete when you have a powerful neighbor right next door.  It's always a wise idea to stay on their good side.  

 

On 3/28/2022 at 4:01 AM, Pattaya Spotter said:

After the eight years of incompetence, it was too late...a fait accompli.

The TPP was a major initiative to counterbalance the influence of China, by linking Asian economies not only to the U.S. but also to other Northern and Southern American economies. The orange moron killed it because, ahem, it was launched by Obama.

[Walker88]

19 hours ago, vandeventer said:

Just look at the USA today! You really think Biden is doing a good job? Trump did more for the USA and the world since Reagan.

Yes, look at US today under Biden....+6.9% GDP in 2021 4th Q....more jobs created in a single year ever....UE down to lowest in decades....job openings everywhere....deficit down $350 billion in FY2021 vs 45's last year, and OMB expects upwards of $1 trillion lower in FY2022...NATO now a unified force....US respected again....US rejoins Paris Climate Accords

 

45 was a disaster. WORST economic performance in GDP terms in 40 years.....even before Covid GDP was in bottom 29% of all quarters since the end of WWII....45 ran up $7 trillion in National Debt in 4 years (a 37% increase over the US' first 240 year total)...45 preached such absurdities as injecting disinfectant or using horse de-wormers for Covid....45 actually tried to overturn US democracy and egged on the terror attack of 6 January (even the FBI Dir appointed by 45 referred to 6 Jan as a Terrorist Attack)....45 pulled US from TPP, which handed Asia to China

 

Pres Obama entered office with 10.4% UE and gave 45 4.8% UE. 45 left Pres Biden 6.9% UE.

 

45=DISASTER

[vandeventer]

1 hour ago, Walker88 said:

Yes, look at US today under Biden....+6.9% GDP in 2021 4th Q....more jobs created in a single year ever....UE down to lowest in decades....job openings everywhere....deficit down $350 billion in FY2021 vs 45's last year, and OMB expects upwards of $1 trillion lower in FY2022...NATO now a unified force....US respected again....US rejoins Paris Climate Accords

 

45 was a disaster. WORST economic performance in GDP terms in 40 years.....even before Covid GDP was in bottom 29% of all quarters since the end of WWII....45 ran up $7 trillion in National Debt in 4 years (a 37% increase over the US' first 240 year total)...45 preached such absurdities as injecting disinfectant or using horse de-wormers for Covid....45 actually tried to overturn US democracy and egged on the terror attack of 6 January (even the FBI Dir appointed by 45 referred to 6 Jan as a Terrorist Attack)....45 pulled US from TPP, which handed Asia to China

 

Pres Obama entered office with 10.4% UE and gave 45 4.8% UE. 45 left Pres Biden 6.9% UE.

 

45=DISASTER

I am from planet earth ,where are you from?

[MyFriend You]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:02 PM, ftpjtm said:

That's not the way I remember it. 

 

I remember private hospitals begging the Thai government to sign off on their purchases of western vaccines and the government refusing until there was a huge public uproar over the local company's inability to make AstraZeneca in quantity and the Thai medical community's insistence the Sinovac, which the rest of the world shunned, was effective. 

 

I also remember the Thai government not receiving western vaccines as quickly as other countries in the region because they chose not to join COVAC.

 

Meanwhile, as the rest of the world is moving forward, China is afraid to open their country because they refused to use Western vaccines and the home brew is so ineffective. 

At last, a voice of reason, shows someone is actually reading the news and reports  -  Kudos  -  Vietnam used Sinovac from China exclusively at first, My Lady and her sister are now scheduled for their fourth shot - since the Chinese vaccine is only good for a very short while.  Thai Govt needs to fall in step with the rest of the world and realize China is  not your friend.

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, ftpjtm said:

hearing that the Thai government was blocking importation of quality vaccines,

Exactly,  you heard a rumour.

[sandyf]

19 hours ago, humbug said:

140 years ago , there were hardly any Chinese, the first major immigrant boat was in the 1880's, since then, the Chinese have assimilated and invaded the country, and been allowed to do it by greedy siam families, still the chinese are a huge minority compared to the darker skin thais

 

but this article is written by a chinese/thai, like many in local media they are being paid to promote positive spin chinese articles, and negative spin articles of the west

 

but nothing more can be done, when you have greedy generals and chinese/thai business elite, who have signed the corrupt belt and road agreements, and the 20 year national strategy, which is really chinese/thai national strategy to allign secretly many legal/laws with Beijing

 

god help the darker skin thais, more enslavement, more whitening cream, and much more poverty, while their white skin from cold climate Chinese nationalists can lord it up

Racist garbage.

One has to assume you can't afford a taxi to the airport.

[fusion58]

On 3/28/2022 at 8:43 AM, Credo said:

Well, there was a president after Obama who did even less.  

 

 

And one before him who gifted America’s manufacturing base to China.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

I worked here, and some of my Thai Chinese colleagues were from very prominent Thai Chines families, so please don't tell me that I don't know that a material proportion of the Thai population, particularly in Bangkok where they predominate,  are of Chinese descent. I probably understand the who's who and what's what of it better than you.

My wife's grandfather was a Chinese national in common with the majority in this area. It is Qing Ming on Thursday,will you be at a grave?

[TropicalGuy]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

My wife's grandfather was a Chinese national in common with the majority in this area. It is Qing Ming on Thursday,will you be at a grave?

Bangkok University AV IQ 115.

Reason : Chinese 

World Top Five Highest AV IQ: 105 ALL Chinese E.Asian Nations+Japs

AV Western IQ: 100

Clearly IQ is Different to Creativity & Competence though…… 

[puck2]

 

 

Don't forget history, especially the Chinese one, connected to Thailand.

 

From 1927 until 1949 there was the civil war in China. Result, Mao was the new communist leader/dictator. It was a hard time in this war for the population in China. Losing homes, life of family members, starvation etc. And even under Mao there have been disasters like starvation etc.  Result, many fled to countries in SE Aisa including Thailand. If you ask your family, friends, neighbors, some or many of them have people with a Chinese origin. I.e. the grandmother of my wife fled China because of war fighting, hunger etc. and moved to Thailand.

 

They all have been unvoluntarily influenced by the culture of their (Chinese) families. Although with a poor and awful life in their mother country, in their hearts they have been Chinese. I can confirm this feelings and behavior. Born during Hitler's dictatorship, at the end of WW II, expelled by the Russians, we didn't change our feeling for our home country.

 

The same happened to the Chinese people here in Thailand. That's one important reason why they feel more connected to China('s dictatorship) than to the Western countries. It's not an issue of brain, but of the origin of the family. You will find this confirmed in the USA.

 

Therefore it's not „the Western arrogance“,but family history, why here is a Chinese influence,

Edited March 29, 2022 by puck2

[Walker88]

20 hours ago, relax33 said:

This is what a fellow american wrote on the subject;
We are in an unsustainable path. We have ruled the world because of the US dollar being set as the World Reserve Currency (WRC) through the post WW2 Brenton Woods agreement, but that has made us lazy leading to the trade deficit that has been going on for decades. Until 1971, that wasn't too bad as dollars were backed by gold, but since then it's been pure paper fiat, and most dollars, some 98.5%, are not even made of paper. The WRC status has led to our losing industry and in fact is also the reason for the immigration crisis. We import goods, and export dollars we create out of thin air. Your measure of success being "continue to prosper" is complete fallacious because we are prospering due to importing goods from other countries while passing them junk currency.
We in the USA are, in effect, international counterfeiters, extracting goods and services from the world while giving nothing of value in return. And we back this with our military might. No, the US empire is coming to an end, and I expect China will replace us. The best thing for us to do is push for a decentralized crypto as a world reserve currency as otherwise, it will be the Yuan

This is a spurious argument. Always has been. The end of the world is nigh....and always will be. After Bretton Woods and Nixon going off the gold standard, the dollar was supposed to disappear 'any second now'. That was 50 years ago.

 

"a decentralized crypto"...please. There's about as much economic reality in that as basing one's mortgage on winning the lottery.

 

ALL means of exchange are dependent on faith, whether gold or dollars of bitcoin. The dollar still serves as reserve currency in part because it's so readily available (which is almost an oxymoron). All excess wealth has to be parked somewhere. The US has massive markets---both equity and bond---and it has rule of law. It has a $22 trillion or so economy. Yes, it also has the military. Easy entry, easy exit.

 

China has no rule of law. China controls capital flows. Cryptos are vulnerable to the internet....something China can control, at least within its system.

 

One day the dollar will fall, but unless 45 wins again and destroys rule of law, democracy, and all the things that make the US attractive to investors, the dollar will survive anyone now alive.