In Thailand, the war in Ukraine divides the generations

[wwest5829]

12 hours ago, jcojco said:

they did enough in organizing the conditions to provoke that war.  Sorros, Biden and his son took they part of it.

Put a gun to the head of Vlad and physically forced him to invade the Crimea? The Donblas? (Earlier Georgia)? Vlad has made no secret of firmly stating the collapse of the USSR was a disaster and wanting to regain what perceived status was there. Organizing conditions to limit his aggression, I recognize but the decision to use unilateral military force to invade a sovereign country was in Vlad's hands. 

[ozimoron]

3 hours ago, Stygge said:

Europe is mainly dependent on Russian gas, not gasoline. The gas is hard to transport. You really need pipelines if you don´t want to freeze it to liquid and transport it on ships. Russia don´t have any major pipelines to China or India. It´s gonna take many years to build. So Russia will suffer, be sure. Gasoline they can probably sell on the black market but to a fraction of the market value.

Europe was in the transit for green tech energy anyway so this just hasten the process. It will cost more since it now must be done quicker. But after that the Russians will have nothing to sell to the world.
War is not won by militaristic strong men with big guns. It´s won by economy, and in that field Russia is a dwarf and will sink even further down. Today they rival Italy in economic terms. Tomorrow they will have to compare themselves with North Korea.

I think Putin realised that and so coveted Ukraine for its rich farmland and natural resources. He knows that Russia is ultimately doomed otherwise.

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Stargeezr said:

Information for posters like Jack Cook with his 114 posts? and Pedrogaz as well.

Did you 2 know that Donbass and the Crimean peninsula were parts of Ukraine?

  Did you know that Russia invaded Crimea, and have been fighting in Donbass.

  Well that should show you that Russia invaded Ukraine and not the other way around.

    As other posters have said, where are you two from?  I have to wonder about your

attitudes and your knowledge. Putin will have no respect from any Western countries,

and when the Russian population ever finds out the truth of the invasion of Ukraine

and all the damage and deaths caused there from the Russian military, I do believe

that Putin and his supporters will be an embarrassment to all of Russia as well.

Here's a clue

 

How Russia’s unanswered propaganda led to the war in Ukraine

 

A lot has been written about Russia’s disinformation campaigns and efforts to spread fake news, which flooded western countries in the past decade and had different effects around the globe.

But many failed to see, or perhaps ignored, what all of this meticulously planned propaganda might lead to.

 

But the war could have been avoided altogether if the West had taken more decisive action much earlier.

 

https://theconversation.com/how-russias-unanswered-propaganda-led-to-the-war-in-ukraine-180202

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda

 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by ozimoron

[stephenterry]

I am old, and I'm waiting for Putin to be exterminated, and fed limb to limb to pigs, hopefully ASAP.  One freaking man holding the world to ransom while western countries sit on their butts. 

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Stygge said:

What happend in WW2 is history and holds less interest today but one can say that the ukrainians, same as the fins would have cooperated with the devil if it  would help them to get rid of their long time opressor, Russia.
 

Kyiv surrendered to the Germans without firing a shot, they were greeted as liberators. it didn't take long for the Ukrainians to realize they had simply swapped jackboots.

Based on that, the Russians found the Nazi label very convenient, even though, as usual, it was a few football fields away from the truth.

 

[Bkk Brian]

Must have been more of those Thai dinosaurs giving this fake post 4,000 likes:

 

"The Russian invasion of Ukraine has sparked another baseless internet rumor, this time about the alleged capture of a top NATO leader in Mariupol, Ukraine.

 

The tweet not only got Cloutier’s military rank and title wrong — he is a lieutenant general and the commander of NATO’s Allied Land Command since August 2020 — but it also set off a flurry of social media posts falsely claiming Cloutier was captured. One Thai-language Facebook post spreading the same message received more than 4,000 likes in a matter of hours. 

 

The false claim was promoted in posts on the pro-Trump and QAnon internet forums patriots.win and greatawakening.win, both of which have played host to far-right and extremist content in the past."

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/apr/05/tweets/no-nato-allied-land-command-leader-wasnt-captured-/

Edited April 7, 2022 by Bkk Brian

[earthscar]

It's worth noting that individuals in the KGB have mentioned that Putin was not some super spy. He was a mid tear member who, with cleverness and skill, put himself in positions to take advantage and climb. He is smart enough to understand how to create an image of success and power; the strategic photoshoots etc., are sufficient proof. He is opportunistic and not stupid, but he is no Light or L(points if you catch the reference). He has cultivated a 5 D chess player's image when it's becoming clearer he is out of touch boomer desperate to leave a legacy so that he can be remembered in the future. 

 

His abject failure in taking Ukraine and misunderstanding of the fall out from the world responding to his actions are just a few clear indications of this. His country was already mismanaged and struggling. If he were in any way a leader of renown, the standard of living in Russia would have been that of some of the critical 1st world nations, but it wasn't

 

There is this idea that he was going there the access the grain supplies or connect a land bridge to Crimea so he could shore up his defensive lines.. these all may have been a piece of the thinking. Still, it's more than likely it was an uninformed action meant to start the reformation of the USSR. His actions and words have clarified what he thinks should be the place of Russia in the world. Any action he takes should be viewed through that lens, and when you do so and consider the logistical challenges it would take to accomplish that, it's pretty sad. he is from a bygone era struggling in a world he has outlived. 

 

The scary part is that he can still cause untold harm to the world with his sad grasp on something he has no skill to create. 

[Presnock]

16 hours ago, Pedrogaz said:

I'm older and not numbered among Ukraine's supporters. Russia was pushed into war by Ukraine and NATO and Russia offered plenty of reasonable dialogue. The endless shelling of the Russians in the Donbass by the Azov battalion made war inevitable. All this war crimes nonsense will force Putin into a corner and he has said many times that he will use nukes if Russia is in an existential crisis. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Don't understand how you can say that Russia was pushed into war by Ukraine - that is what Putin is telling his captive audience, that Ukraine attacked Russia.  Ukraine only wants into NATO so that they will have support when the Russians try to steal more land.  Those other countries in NATO from east Europe joined NATO for that same reason - they realized that Russia wants to go back to having the "buffer zone" they had with the Soviet Union.  Russia encouraged their soldiers in those countries that they controlled in order that they can use the excuse that they are just protecting the Russian citizens in those buffer countries.  War will be inevitable as long as Russia can find some people to control.  My opinion based on life experiences!

 

[MrJ2U]

13 hours ago, earthscar said:

but there are steps they can and are to mitigate and lessen their reliance.

Totally agree!

 

They realize now what a mistake it was to rely on so much from Russia.

[MrJ2U]

13 hours ago, impulse said:

Russia selling their gas to someone who isn't in on the sanctions.  

They have already started selling to India and China at reduced prices.

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, MrJ2U said:

Totally agree!

 

They realize now what a mistake it was to rely on so much from Russia.

About the time the Berlin Wall came down that was probably not true. The problem is really the rise in fascism and the natural reluctance of an non-confrontational liberal society to act against fascism, leading to situations like we are seeing today. Hungary being the latest example.

[Saanim]

17 hours ago, Srikcir said:

It was Putin himself who made it known to the world that he wants to restore the boundaries of the defunct Soviet Empire. Georgia was the first to fall in 2008.

You surely have a link where Putin said that?

 

Although he had said that the collapse of the USSR was a disaster for Russian people, he also said that a restoring of that would be an even bigger mistake.

(something like that was recently mentioned by French intelligence expert Eric Dénécé, the link to his interview I cannot enter here)  

 

[earthscar]

8 minutes ago, Saanim said:

You surely have a link where Putin said that?

 

Although he had said that the collapse of the USSR was a disaster for Russian people, he also said that a restoring of that would be an even bigger mistake.

(something like that was recently mentioned by French intelligence expert Eric Dénécé, the link to his interview I cannot enter here)  

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240

[Saanim]

5 minutes ago, earthscar said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240

A link to Putin's speech where he said he wants to restore USSR?

 

[earthscar]

Just now, Saanim said:

A link to Putin's speech where he said he wants to restore USSR?

 

Are you attempting to claim that Putin is not in complete control of state media? Did you per chance watch the televised speech he gave from the stadium? I mean if you're under some impression that Putin is not currently in total control of the Russian government I don't know what to tell you because that is irrefutable at this point. At best you could say that sometimes a news organization might be overzealous in pushing state sponsored propaganda. But that particular article came out it was approved. Putin has not been shy about his worldview. 

[Saanim]

17 hours ago, Srikcir said:

It was Putin himself who made it known to the world that he wants to restore the boundaries of the defunct Soviet Empire. Georgia was the first to fall in 2008.

BTW, whether "Georgia was the first to fall in 2008"? The link was here recently where EC Parliament confirmed that it was not Russia who started the war but the then Georgia govt with their then president Saakashvili (now in Georgia prison).

 

But it's rather more fashionable - and admirable by others - to further repeat the stereotypical lies, isn't it?  

[earthscar]

6 minutes ago, Saanim said:

A link to Putin's speech where he said he wants to restore USSR?

 

 

[Saanim]

15 hours ago, joecoolfrog said:

Nonsense , Putin has been dreaming and plotting for a ' Greater Russia ' , since his days as an office boy in East Berlin.

Do you know something also about other world leaders what was their wet dream as an office boy? 

[Saanim]

10 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Hitler and Stalin didn't get on too well

Stalin never met Hitler

[earthscar]

4 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Do you also know about other world leaders? What was their wet dream as an office boy? 

Atm, you're coming across as a Troll; there is room for discussion on creating a buffer state, etc. But what is not in question is the legitimate right Ukraine has as a democracy-run country to decide its fate. Full stop. 

 

It's not in a debate that the actions in Ukraine fall under war crimes. Full stop. 

 

If you are attempting to imply otherwise on those 2 things, there is no discussion with you as the information is out there outside of mass media to prove both of those things. 

 

You can possibly discuss his fears of NATO and how it might hamper his rule of Russia but that's not what is happening now. A war criminal is attacking another country and committing genocide. As he has total control of his nation, more so than any democratic nation, he bears complete responsibility for this war. 

[Lacessit]

10 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Hitler and Stalin didn't get on too well 

They got on very well until Hitler wanted Lebensraum. Perhaps you have forgotten the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

[Saanim]

13 hours ago, ozimoron said:

The Green federal economics minister, Robert Habeck, answered with a decisive “yes it can”, a day after the chancellor, Olaf Scholz, announced the suspension of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, which was meant to deliver from Russia as much as 70% of Germany’s gas requirements. There are considerable doubts as to whether the $11bn project will ever now go ahead.

Actually, Olaf Scholz at mid February asked Zelenskyy to come to terms in order to avoid a war that will have a glooming impact not only on Ukraine.  What we see, hear from Zelenskyy? Every day a strong declaration of war, asking for more weapons, even when the Russians retreated to provide a space for truce talks. Even his brothers in Israel's Knesset were not excited by his speech to them. How many countries (of the 190) are still to be spoken to?

 

Is it something what can be classified as a looking for solution how to end the war? But does he (and his advisers) really want to end the war and stop the suffering of his people?

 

Paradoxically, it was the majority of Russian speaking Ukrainers who voted for him, they did not know that he will issue a law forbidding the Russian language.

 

[In Full Agreement]

22 hours ago, Docno said:

Sorry, grammatical error... should be: "unfortunately, the young will become the future dinosaurs"

 

That is if they live long enough!

 

 

[earthscar]

2 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Olaf Scholz, in mid-February, asked Zelenskyy to come to terms to avoid a war that would have a glooming impact not only on Ukraine.  What do we see and hear from Zelenskyy? Every day a strong declaration of war, asking for more weapons, even when the Russians retreated to provide a space for truce talks. Even his brothers in Israel's Knesset were not excited by his speech. How many countries (of the 190) are still to be spoken to?

 

Is it something that can be classified as a solution for ending the war? But does he (and his advisers) want to end the war and stop the suffering of his people?

 

Paradoxically, the majority of Russian-speaking Ukraine who voted for him did not know that he would issue a law forbidding the Russian language.

 

Are you attempting to imply that Zelenskyy is to be held even partially to blame for the continued war in Ukraine? Are you trying to imply the total seizure of Ukraine was not the goal of this current conflict going on? I'm curious because it would better help me understand where your coming from. It should go without saying, tho in almost every case; someone then goes on to say that ppl are not anti-Russian they are anti-Putin. It's similar to how ppl are anti-CCP and not anti-Chinese. Putin is not Russian, and CCP is not China. They are just ticks feeding off their countries. 

[Saanim]

9 minutes ago, earthscar said:

Atm, you're coming across as a Troll; there is room for discussion 

Why anybody is always a "troll",  "stooge" or whatever, when saying something you do not like to hear? Never a "troll" who said something stupid what I commented on?

 

Please enlighten me where is a "room for discussion"... 

  

[baboon]

28 minutes ago, earthscar said:

 

Putin quoting from Scripture? Yes, Vlad, because nothing says 'following in the footsteps of Jesus' quite like invading another country and bombing the sh!t out of innocent civilians, you pr**k.

[earthscar]

1 minute ago, Saanim said:

Why is anybody always a "troll,"  "stooge," or whatever when saying something you do not like to hear? Never a "troll" who said something stupid about what I commented on?

 

Please enlighten me on where is a "room for discussion"... 

  

Be happy too. You're not attempting to have a discussion. You are making one-liner quips and alluding to vague statements without trying to back them up. You must support your claims because you are the outlier, which may shock you. 

 

When you respond to posts in such a way, the strong impression is that you are trying to muddy the waters and distract people from focusing on the real issues and ways to solve them. You don't add to the conversation. You just create noise, and that's the goal of a troll. 

[Saanim]

8 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps you have forgotten the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Perhaps you have forgotten Munich Treaty by Chamberlain and others. And the Poland Treaty before. Should Stalin not protect himself to be better prepared for Hitler invasion, thus being able to get world rid of Hitler? 

 

Should we start this discussion?  

[placeholder]

54 minutes ago, Saanim said:

You surely have a link where Putin said that?

 

Although he had said that the collapse of the USSR was a disaster for Russian people, he also said that a restoring of that would be an even bigger mistake.

(something like that was recently mentioned by French intelligence expert Eric Dénécé, the link to his interview I cannot enter here)  

 

And the thing about people who worked for the KGB is that they are open, honest, and straightforward in their comments.  Might be more sensible to judge Putin by his actions in invading several nations bordering on Russia including not just Ukraine but Moldova and Georgia.

He also called the collapse of the Soviet Union the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century. (So WW2 is only #2, at most?) And this is the chilling part of that speech

“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory."

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna7632057

[Mac Mickmanus]

30 minutes ago, Saanim said:

Stalin never met Hitler

I didn't mean on a personal basis