Thai spirit house rules and Thai animism intro

[RamenRaven]

Can anyone recommend any books, guides, or websites on spirit houses and offerings - or rather, Thai spirits and Thai animism in general (how to respect them, purpose, things to do and not to do)?

I've searched all over the web for detailed rules on how to respect spirit houses, offerings to spirits, and other related topics, but no luck so far.

 

Most of us Westerners are used to having religious rules explained to us in very explicit, standardized formats like catechisms.

But Thais don't seem to have Catholic-style catechisms detailing all the little things that you should and shouldn't do.

As far as I know, there is no "convert to Thai animism" missionary pamphlet for foreigners to read.

 

It can feel like walking on eggshells when looking around Thai houses, since you don't know what you should or shouldn't touch. I simply maintain my distance from all religious objects in order not to offend anyone.
 

 

A few questions off the top of my mind.

1. Thais will typically eat food offered at spirit houses. But how long should you wait until you can actually eat it? Thais say maybe several hours or one day, but definitely not less than one hour.

2. How do you "ask" a spirit if you want to eat bananas and mangos placed at spirit houses? They all wai and say something when asking spirits, but I am wondering what they actually say. But then, some Thais will eat offerings, and others won't eat them.

3. Objects are often placed in random places around houses. Sometimes there are toys and amulets and other random objects that you shouldn't randomly touch unless you "ask" the spirits. How do you know where the spirits are and what kinds of objects to place?

4. What are the little human and animal figurines placed in the spirit houses for?

5. Where do all those garlands, red and green Fanta, and beverage offerings go after being offered? They are typically disposed of, but how would you do so without offending the spirits? Normally you don't see Thais drinking red Fanta offerings.

6. I bought some souvenirs from India and gave them to a Thai family, like mini lingams and small framed pictures of Hindu goddesses. The were then placed on top of a shelf, and then they became "sacred." What's the symbolism behind that? I just thought they were cool tourist souvenirs, but Thais see them as religious objects.

7. What exactly is supposed to be "alive" with spirits vs. something that's just offered to a spirit but isn't itself "alive"?

8. Thais often buy garlands from roadside sellers and then place them inside their cars. The buyer gets good karma for supporting the garland seller, but is the garland supposed to be offered to the car spirit or something? And how would you properly dispose of the garland?

 

And so many more questions.

 

When I ask Thais these kinds of questions, they can explain the very basics but have trouble elaborating. Online guides for tourists and expats don't elaborate much either.

Thai books will assume that people already know all of these things from birth and won't explain the very basics.

 

Thanks for the cross-cultural help and advice in advance.

Edited April 16, 2022 by RamenRaven

[CharlieH]

I would suggest walking in to a local Wat and seek out an English speaker.

He/they should have all the answers you need I would have thought.

 

I am not that deeply curious and the wife answers the superficial stuff, but mostly I have no interest in knowing but respect her beliefs and leave her to it.

[polpott]

1 hour ago, CharlieH said:

I would suggest walking in to a local Wat and seek out an English speaker.

He/they should have all the answers you need I would have thought.

 

I am not that deeply curious and the wife answers the superficial stuff, but mostly I have no interest in knowing but respect her beliefs and leave her to it.

Doubt that you would get your answers there. Its pre Buddhist and not really related. I've always found Thais reluctant/embarrassed to talk about it. Mainly involves Jao Thi, inhabitant of the little spirit houses at the entrance to many people's drives. Basically, the spirits of those who have previously inhabited that land.

Often used to see girls scattering whiskey round the perimeter of the bar at opening. Girls always claimed it was "for Buddha" and would say no more, it was actually for Jao Thi.

 

Easy test to indicate whether a tribute is for Jao Thi or Buddah, Buddah never drinks alcohol, Jao Thi loves a drop!

[Will B Good]

2 hours ago, RamenRaven said:

3. Objects are often placed in random places around houses

That is certainly a truism in Thailand......around the house, in the garden, driveway, patio, pavement outside.......

[starky]

Just ask ya missus she will know the rules.  If ya don't have a missus then doesn't really matter what rules ya follow. This is Thailand the very basics is about as complicated as it gets. Dont quote me but i reckon it varies from village to village and province to province. Thus no hard and fast rules. As long as ya not taking food from other peoples spirit houses.

  On a side note how hard up are you that you want to eat food from spirit houses? 

Edited April 16, 2022 by starky

[Orinoco]

Ask the same question to 10 different Thai people and you will get 10 different answers.

Mumbo Jumbo tends to be like that.

There is an alarming amount of Mumbo Jumbo here.

TIT.

 

 

[VocalNeal]

14 hours ago, RamenRaven said:

when looking around Thai houses, since you don't know what you should or shouldn't touch.

Back home did you wander around other people's houses touching stuff?

 

There are many mysteries in the wide, wide world. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. It is all part of life's rich pageant.

Edited April 17, 2022 by VocalNeal

[DezLez]

14 hours ago, polpott said:

Its pre Buddhist and not really related.

Then why, when I needed to move the spirit house at my business premises, did my staff inist on the monks coming round to perform their stuff both before and after the removal of the spirit house?

Edited April 17, 2022 by DezLez

[CharlieH]

28 minutes ago, DezLez said:

Then why, when I needed to move the spirit house at my business premises, did my staff inist on the monks coming round to perform their stuff both before and after the removal of the spirit house?

Indeed, my wife said they should come to tell us where it should be placed too.

[NancyL]

We have friends, an American couple, who are very devout Christians and are uncomfortable with having a spirit house at their rented house in Chiang Mai.  They asked the owner if they could remove it and she refused.  So, at my suggestion they turned it into a year-round nativity scene, with figurines they brought from America.  The owner lives overseas and hasn't seen it.

[KhaoNiaw]

3 hours ago, DezLez said:

Then why, when I needed to move the spirit house at my business premises, did my staff inist on the monks coming round to perform their stuff both before and after the removal of the spirit house?

Because it's a mishmash of beliefs and monks are involved in a lot of things that are not part of Buddhism. What he said is quite correct. Thai belief systems have taken on many different influences that are now overlapping. 

[RamenRaven]

7 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Back home did you wander around other people's houses touching stuff?

 

There are many mysteries in the wide, wide world. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. It is all part of life's rich pageant.

Let me phrase it in a better way:

 

Foreigners with Thai wives are afraid to touch all kinds of things in their own houses.

 

White strings, sticks, colored water, cloths with magical diagrams, portraits of deities, flowers, bowls, colorful figurines, and all kinds of paraphanelia that look like they're from some kind of Disneyland haunted house.

 

We just want to know what exactly had been placed in our own homes and what they're all for.

Which ones are supposed to have spirits living inside them? Which ones are for warding off evil spirits? Are the spirits supposed to live inside the little objects, or do they sort of float and hover around the objects?

 

All we need is a written guide explaining all this to Westerners accustomed to thinking about things in a scientific, rational, deductive manner, but that has proved elusive.

 

It's hard for Thais to explain this to foreigners. They probably secretly feel exasperated explaining basic things, like "how can you not know that spirits exist?" Also Thais often just say, oh this is for good luck, that is for good luck, but that's an extreme oversimplification.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by RamenRaven

[RamenRaven]

18 hours ago, starky said:

Just ask ya missus she will know the rules.

Have you ever tried to ask a typical Thai these kinds of questions?

 

Typical answers:

"This is for good luck."

"That is for good luck."

"This is what we believe in."

 

In Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, you get very exact answers, and religious apologists will have precise answers for even the most rigorous scientists with the hardest questions.

 

But not in Thai Buddhism. Their mindset is, "We don't think like that over here. This stuff just exists, and you have to feel it to understand it."

Ask them something and they'll look a bit confused, and then go off-topic with very generic answers.

 

Now try:

Typical farang Q: Where do the spirits come from? How are spirits born, and do they procreate? Did they exist since eternity or did they spawn within the past 100 years? Would it be theoretically possible to identify each and every individual spirit with a baht pratchachon (ID card), or do they flash in and out of existence so often that it wouldn't be possible?

Typical Thai A: Looks stumped for a few seconds and then says, "Yes, in Thailand we believe in many kinds of spirits. Like tree spirits and house spirits. They just exist in there. Sometimes you dream about them too. If we are good to them, they help us."

 

That leaves the farang thinking, "Well yes, I know that, but I was looking for a very exact scientific description of what a spirit is really like."

 

I'm 100% sure that it's not a language barrier issue.

 

They simply have trouble understanding our deductive kind of thinking, because the animism here simply isn't a dogmatic Abrahamic religion.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by RamenRaven

[DezLez]

2 hours ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Because it's a mishmash of beliefs and monks are involved in a lot of things that are not part of Buddhism. What he said is quite correct. Thai belief systems have taken on many different influences that are now overlapping. 

 Which is all the more reason to go to a temple and ask them about "so called" non Buddhist activities, their involvemnt in them, and your actions etc, etc!

[RamenRaven]

18 hours ago, starky said:

 On a side note how hard up are you that you want to eat food from spirit houses? 

Whenever I buy bananas and mangos, my Thai wife hides them in random corners around the house as offerings.
When she buys them, sometimes they go rotten because I didn't know they were hidden here and there.

 

It's always a hide and seek game with the bananas and mangos.

And also apples and dragonfruits.

 

But for some reason, not avocados. I wonder why? They always have to be big, roundish fruits that Thais are more familiar with.

And definitely not dates and raisins, so now I prefer those because they won't get randomly hidden around the house for the spirits to enjoy.

 

I ask if I can eat the fruits that I had bought earlier. She says, wait a bit longer and then I'll get them for you.

Which means anywhere from one minute to one day later.

 

Sometimes I just prefer to eat bananas outside and not bring them inside the house, or else I'd have to play another game of hide and seek.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by RamenRaven

[Orinoco]

Always thought hide the sausage was a better game.

Oh well, different strokes for different folks as they say.

 

 

[LaosLover]

3 useful concepts of animism:  1) objects acquire power over time 2) objects can woo spirits and then eventually belong to spirits. 3) the spirits are alway a little unreliable, so they need a little help.

 

That's why your souvenir lingham is on a high shelf and why (1) people add little figures to their house over time (to increase the power of the spirit house) (2) items should not be touched (interrupts the power accumulation) (3) they eventually drink the red Fanta (prosperity color) and eat the food when the spirits fail to show up and do so.

 

Items like garlands are usually disposed of at a wat: a lot of sacred sites like Sukhothai have interesting Nang Kwak and Spirit House graveyards just down the road. 

 

Animists believe that the spirits are alway with them and either mad at them, happy with them, or indifferent. So no real diff from Jesus-belief, for instance.

 

Think of Angkor Wat; it was built as a series of residences to tempt gods down from the heavens to dwell on earth. Angkor Wat is basically a very large spirit house.

 

[LaosLover]

-Buddhism was forced on the locals a zillion years ago by the Indians and to make it stick they had to make some kind of peace with animism. That's why stuff like Nang Kwak, amulets, magic cloths still carries on -in much the same way that Catholics still worship out of favor saints.

 

There's a lot of disagreement among "proper" Buddhists as to how much funky animism to let in to the canon. The great monk and teacher, Ahjarn Chat, was very anti-amulet as he felt it took away from the teachings. But even he consented to a few amulets to fund the monkhood.

 

Technically speaking, a Buddha statue itself is against Buddha's teachings and not much diff than an amulet. He specifically said: "it is a grave mistake to worship the image of the Buddha".  Thai people ascribe the same powers to specific Buddhas as amulets: good fortune and a chance to have contact with the metaphysical world.

 

Thailand and Laos are unique in their blend of the supernatural and the dharma. You don't see so many amulets in Cambodia, Myanmar, and Malaysia.

 

Many towns in Thailand take great pride in their town pillar. This is where some local Buddhist power broker of the day placed a market to delineate where a town (muang) was.

 

It was usually hammered in at a spot that the locals thought of as a power spot. They were erected to show who was Buddha-boss over the spirits.  It was the equivalent of putting a cross on top of a mosque.

Edited April 17, 2022 by LaosLover

[RamenRaven]

Excellent insights LaosLover. Enjoyed reading your replies.

 

Did you do a lot of research on religious traditions in Southeast Asia? It seems like you know a lot.

 

[RamenRaven]

5 hours ago, LaosLover said:

3 useful concepts of animism:  1) objects acquire power over time 2) objects can woo spirits and then eventually belong to spirits. 3) the spirits are alway a little unreliable, so they need a little help.

 

That's why your souvenir lingham is on a high shelf and why (1) people add little figures to their house over time (to increase the power of the spirit house) (2) items should not be touched (interrupts the power accumulation) (3) they eventually drink the red Fanta (prosperity color) and eat the food when the spirits fail to show up and do so.

 

That explains why all those "science nerd" questions about spirits sound completely irrelevant and downright weird to people who believe in animism.

 

The spirits aren't quantifiable, to be measured and classified according to the scientific method.

It's more Freudian and Jungian, rather than Darwinian or Newtonian.

 

8 hours ago, RamenRaven said:

Typical farang Q: Where do the spirits come from? How are spirits born, and do they procreate? Did they exist since eternity or did they spawn within the past 100 years? Would it be theoretically possible to identify each and every individual spirit with a baht pratchachon (ID card), or do they flash in and out of existence so often that it wouldn't be possible?

Typical Thai A: Looks stumped for a few seconds and then says, "Yes, in Thailand we believe in many kinds of spirits. Like tree spirits and house spirits. They just exist in there. Sometimes you dream about them too. If we are good to them, they help us."

 

That leaves the farang thinking, "Well yes, I know that, but I was looking for a very exact scientific description of what a spirit is really like."

 

I'm 100% sure that it's not a language barrier issue.

 

They simply have trouble understanding our deductive kind of thinking, because the animism here simply isn't a dogmatic Abrahamic religion.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by RamenRaven

[LaosLover]

Thai people are uniquely generous in letting outsiders into their animist beliefs.

 

Go to an Indian reservation or town in Africa and ask about their beliefs. Stone stares all around. Whereas a cab drive in Bangkok will talk to you for the length of the ride most of the time.

[simple1]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:35 PM, RamenRaven said:

I bought some souvenirs from India and gave them to a Thai family, like mini lingams and small framed pictures of Hindu goddesses. The were then placed on top of a shelf, and then they became "sacred." What's the symbolism behind that? I just thought they were cool tourist souvenirs, but Thais see them as religious objects.

Remember Hinduisn is estimated to have been establihed approx 5,000 years ago, roughly 2,500 years before the advent of Buddhism. I have provided a link below which talks to Hindu influences within Thai buddhism, As a simple example the blue coloured figures you can observe in Thai buddhist temples represent gods from Hindu mythology.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Thailand#:~:text=Hinduism is a minority religion,of the Hindu epic Ramayana.

 

For some more research below is a link describing the spiritual representation of ligams in Hinduism and Buddhism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam#:~:text=According to the Linga Purana,the entire Universe in it.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by simple1

[JimTripper]

If the Spirits have nowhere to go of their own, they go into your house on the land and cause trouble.

Edited April 17, 2022 by JimTripper

[Heng]

'Waiing' these various landmarks, spirit houses, etc. is a quick shortcut to 'appearing local.'   (if you want to project that image for whatever reason)

 

Advanced: do it while driving.   

 

[The Hammer2021]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:19 AM, DezLez said:

Then why, when I needed to move the spirit house at my business premises, did my staff inist on the monks coming round to perform their stuff both before and after the removal of the spirit house?

Because its related The Sangha works closely  with spiritualists. Check out  Loei

[RamenRaven]

5 hours ago, JimTripper said:

If the Spirits have nowhere to go of their own, they go into your house on the land and cause trouble.

Sounds like Halloween! I think the Celts and their descendants made offerings on All Souls' Days that to placate wandering spirits.

 

In Thailand, the spirits are often, but not always, from the souls of deceased people right?

 

[JimTripper]

24 minutes ago, RamenRaven said:

Sounds like Halloween! I think the Celts and their descendants made offerings on All Souls' Days that to placate wandering spirits.

 

In Thailand, the spirits are often, but not always, from the souls of deceased people right?

 

I think the spirit houses on property are meant for spirits of deceased relatives because traditionally the land would be passed down. They could be partially for just spirits inhabiting the land though.

 

There's other stuff like spirits in trees and boats etc but the Thai's do other things for them like tying those colorful scarfs around the trunks of trees and on the bow of the old wooden fishing boats.

 

There is a crematorium in Chiang Mai where families have put up hundreds of spirit houses around a large tree by the enterance. The spirits probably flew towards the closest large tree after the service so they put many spirit houses there. It is very beautiful.

Edited April 18, 2022 by JimTripper

[jak2002003]

OP you are thinking too much.

 

Really, the people who have these beliefs and rituals are making it up as they go along and don't know the detailed reasons why they do these things themselves ...they just carry on what they were told to do by their parents and them by their parents etc.  

 

You will find each household / person does things differently for the spirits.

 

There are general beliefs though.

 

1.  The spirit shelf inside the house is for the ancestors.  Offerings are put on that for the family ancestors.

 

2. The spirit houses in the garden are for the spirits who live on the land. They are supernatural and were never human.  Offerings are put on that to keep them content and stop them making trouble for the people who live in the house.

 

You can touch what you want...so long are you are respectful. 

 

You can offer what you want to the ancestors or spirits...whatever you think they might like.  Our spirit house has toy cars for them to travel about in as well as the usual stone elephants and horses and model dancers for their entertainment. 

 

The Red soda is a substitute for blood.  In the old days they used real blood until some king in the past told people to stop doing that.

 

The offerings are made on special days or when the people living on the land are worried the spirits are causing them bad luck etc.  

 

Last thing...when offering the incense sticks they should always be in 3s.  Rule is that spirits don't like things in equal numbers. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by jak2002003

[RamenRaven]

16 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

OP you are thinking too much.

 

Really, the people who have these beliefs and rituals are making it up as they go along and don't know the detailed reasons why they do these things themselves ...they just carry on what they were told to do by their parents and them by their parents etc.  

 

You will find each household / person does things differently for the spirits.

 

There are general beliefs though.

 

1.  The spirit shelf inside the house is for the ancestors.  Offerings are put on that for the family ancestors.

 

2. The spirit houses in the garden are for the spirits who live on the land. They are supernatural and were never human.  Offerings are put on that to keep them content and stop them making trouble for the people who live in the house.

 

You can touch what you want...so long are you are respectful. 

 

You can offer what you want to the ancestors or spirits...whatever you think they might like.  Our spirit house has toy cars for them to travel about in as well as the usual stone elephants and horses and model dancers for their entertainment. 

 

The Red soda is a substitute for blood.  In the old days they used real blood until some king in the past told people to stop doing that.

 

The offerings are made on special days or when the people living on the land are worried the spirits are causing them bad luck etc.  

 

Last thing...when offering the incense sticks they should always be in 3s.  Rule is that spirits don't like things in equal numbers.

Fabulous explanation, thanks for this.

 

And yes, most of us Westerners think too much. Thais notice this too and tell us all to take it easy, sabai sabai.

That's what happens when we grow up with all that scientific rationalism and Christianity. We are all taught to think too much instead of simply "feeling nature."

 

[fusion58]

All I know is that my wife takes her hands off the steering wheel to wai every one of them she sees, and it makes me nervous. ????