Joint Bank Accounts - Are We Safe?

[chiangrai57020]

Personal: Several years ago I open a 'Joint Bank Account' at TMB and Krung Thai Bank with me as the 'Primary' and the spouse as the 'Secondary' owner of the accounts. Signature cards were set up accordingly and both bank books list our names. In addition I had the spouse open individual accounts at both banks in her name only. I told myself that everything is just fine - no worries - UNTIL…….

The spouse arrives home a few days ago from a visit to her village. The wife tells me that a woman in the village just lost all her funds. The story goes - this woman had been married to a Canadian for many years. During those years the Canadian transferred a substantial amount to his spouses individual account. The Canadian past away. The relatives of the spouse apparently were upset that the woman had a lot of money but would not share the money. The relatives went to the 'poo yai baan' and complained (?). Short ending - the government/police/whoever went to the woman's bank and confiscated all her funds. Apparently the government (?) decided that this woman's funds were the result of 'dealing in drugs'. Although the woman was not arrested (?) the funds disappeared.

So my spouse decided that she wanted to transfer all her funds to our joint account. I tried to explain to her that it was not necessary as she could prove where the money came from - copies of our joint account and transfers. She insisted that she wanted to transfer her funds. Well, why not, I thought. We have a joint account and she could always get funds from our account. Then the BOMB-SHELL dropped------

She proceeds to tell me that when we opened the joint account several years ago that the bank clerk told her that if I were to pass away before her that 'IT WOULD BE UPTO THE BANK WHETHER SHE WOULD GET THE FUNDS IN OUR JOINT ACCOUNT!!! I could not believe this!

With the spouse in tow, I went to TMB and asked them specifically - If I were to die tomorrow, Will the spouse whose name is on the account get the funds in the account? Quote from the Bank Manager - "It is upto the bank as to whether the funds will be released!" Further goes on to state "that in Thailand there can only be 'one owner' of the account (Primary)." Where does the money go if the bank cannot give the funds to my spouse, I ask. "We keep the money." What if I have a will - "If the court directs the funds to be transferred AND the funds are STILL IN THE ACCOUNT(?) then we can transfer them BUT NOT GIVE HER THE FUNDS. MUST be transferred to an account with the bank."

Off to Krung Thai Bank with the spouse in tow. Same questions and same basic answers.

Q. Is this for real?

Q. What are the alternatives to protect the funds and her money? (Coffee cans stuffed with Baht and buried in the back yard)

Q. Has anyone else checked into the 'single ownership' rule?

Q. Is this a 'local bank' rule?

Q. Can the local 'government' and 'banks' make their own rules/laws as to what belongs legally to a spouse?

Q. How is a spouse to defend herself if the 'authorities' decide that the funds in her account are from 'devious' means?

I am in a total dilemma as to how to protect the spouse and her funds if I were to die tomorrow!

Any suggestions?

According to the latest news, Taksins 20 plus bank accounts were frozen by the 'Government(?)'. Were the 'Banks' provided with 'Legal documentation' to freeze those accounts? Or were they frozen because the 'Government' said to freeze them?

Have to wonder! Now I can understand why Taksin has his money in many different peoples names!

TIT

2 days ago I met a man from the USA who had just moved into the neighborhood. In talking to him I learned that his wife of many years had past away from cancer 2 years ago. He also informed me that he had to hire a lawyer to get his money that was in his wife's account. In addition, he had spent over 5 million on house, land, etc. that the wife's relatives 'stole' from him. 'Kicked him out'! The lawyer had already been paid over 100,000 baht and wasn't doing anything for him. The former wife's account had been cleaned out by the relatives - leaving him with nothing (Banks!!!!). The story goes on, but basically, he has know legal recourse of getting what is his just due.

[The Skipper]

Don't keep your money or invest or do business in Thailand is the lesson to be learned.

Too many games.

[leisurely]

That is why we have seperate accounts. My husbands employers advised him strongly that joint bank accounts were a bad idea. I was a bit miffed by this, we've always had the joint bank account - neither of us has ever wanted or needed individual ones until now. Still, it is working for us except that I have to transfer the money from his to mine at the start of the month. He is allowed 3k baht a month pocket money

[Fred Sanford]

I keep my assets offshore to avoid problems

[wolfmanjack]

If you have a joint account and either person can sign what is stopping the surviving spouse from withdrawing all of the money before the bank finds out the deceased is dead ? I don't think any one runs around telling all he banks of all the deaths and they do not have an obituary in the paper here. Not that I have seen anyway.

Edited June 19, 2007 by wolfmanjack

[lampard10]

It's not so much corrupt, as absolutely insane. Example.

A well known supplier of foods, rung me up and said can I transfer money for the goods right away, instead of the two or three week wait, as they were very strapped for cash. I complied, and was amazed to see that on my receipt, it gave the bank balance of the account I was paying into. And they had loads of dosh. I phoned the guy back, and told him his balance. He was most embarrassed.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

Any suggestions?

<snip>

Don't keep your money in Thailand. Transfer only what you need for living expenses into a Thai bank. If you make a living here, transfer any excess ( ) out of Thailand.

[chiangrai57020]

If you have a joint account and either person can sign what is stopping the surviving spouse from withdrawing all of the money before the bank finds out the deceased is dead ? I don't think any one runs around telling all he banks of all the deaths and they do not have an obituary in the paper here. Not that I have seen anyway.

Good point which I have stated to the spouse many times in the past. The problem that I see, and worries me, is the fact that in Thailand 'whoever' (government, banks, etc.) may ask the question - Where did all your money come from? Your not employed and have no source of income? Although the wife has been married to me for many years and I have supported her all these years, it worries me that 'they' can confiscate 'her' funds for no apparent reason.

Other posters have commented that I should keep my funds 'off-shore'. I do. I now live in the USA and return to Thailand every 3 months or so to visit the wife. (It is a long story - she is not a Thai citizen although has lived in Thailand most of her life; cannot get a Thai passport, therefore no visa to travel; after 4 years of battling the Thai government over this issue I felt I had to leave Thailand or end up 'dead'; I got worn out).

Back on topic. I want to leave my money when I pass on to my wife (I am 69) but it worries me that the Thai government/banks/etc. can pretty much do as they please with, apparently, no recourse for the victim! I want my wife to be secure in knowing that she can live off the money I leave her without, she in turn, having to worry that some 'agency' will 'steal' her money.

I am at a total loss as to how to protect 'her' funds!

I will have to leave Thailand in a week and want to try and get this problem resolved.

Thanks for any input that the posters can provide.

[mellow1]

This sound's completely crazy.

What you are saying,is that if a Thai man dies, the bank will take his money,letting the rest of the family starve.This sounds a little far fetched,even for Thailand.

I'll talk to Bangkok bank about this,and see what they have to say.Whats the use of a joint account?

[lampard10]

QUOTE(wolfmanjack @ 2007-06-19 07:35:36) *

If you have a joint account and either person can sign what is stopping the surviving spouse from withdrawing all of the money before the bank finds out the deceased is dead ? I don't think any one runs around telling all he banks of all the deaths and they do not have an obituary in the paper here. Not that I have seen anyway.

ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR sorry have I missed something here? If your partner dies then all the money is yours anyway. Why not draw it all out?

[lannarebirth]

Sorry, I'm confused as well. Are you talking about joint accounts that require BOTH signatures in order to make a withdrawl, or accounts that require EITHER signature to make a withdrawl?

[swissie]

There is a good reason why Thai's like to invest their "spare money" in gold or jewelery in general.(Although the bid/ask spread for gold is at laest 10 %).

= Don't trust your gouvernement- don't trust your own country's currency- don't trust anything called "Bank" that is located in Thailand. This, at least, is what my Thai-Wife tells me. She must know, she has been living in Thailand much longer than I. She would not dream of having a major amount "entrusted" in any Bank in Thailand. She prefers Banks in Europe or gold.

The more astonishing it is to me, that "Farangs" have never heard of such precautions before that seem to work for Thais, and that are beeing applied instinctively by them in daily life.

In the age of internet-banking and "plastic-money" I have never understood, why any Farang would have the urge an the need to have any sort of banking connection in Thailand. Completely unnecessary! Unless there is a good reason to cut any banking connection in "the old country".

But that applies only to about 50% of the "Expats" in Thailand, the other 50% ( I am confident) is wearing a "white shirt". Of course. Cheers.

[funfun]

I keep my assets offshore to avoid problems

same same, my yorkshire bank account of 1 pounds 19 and a halfe are safe as houses!

Best thing to do is, well, your not with her anymore on a daily basis, and, she aint thai, and, shes got visa problems, and, shes not getting any younger, and, niether you, .......go get another girl (about 18 be ok) and keep ya own money!

only joking, hope ya sort it out and let us know the outcome!

[highdiver]

sorry guys but this sound like an urban legend..

thai banking laws are very well defined and the comercial bank can not give your funds to anyone. the comercial banks are very carfull about this isuue.

and the poo yai ban and others can not jsut step ito the bank and confiscate funds.

any confescation of the funds can only be made through a court order.

on the contrary to most Farrang legends... thailand has laws and they are enforced.

if they were married. then under Thai Civil legal provisions governing inheritance she is entitled to the funds.

if they were only married in the temple but not registered then she needs to press a claim through the court with facts that they have been living together and then the court will rule her to be the sucessor.

[chiangrai57020]

sorry guys but this sound like an urban legend..

thai banking laws are very well defined and the comercial bank can not give your funds to anyone. the comercial banks are very carfull about this isuue.

and the poo yai ban and others can not jsut step ito the bank and confiscate funds.

any confescation of the funds can only be made through a court order.

on the contrary to most Farrang legends... thailand has laws and they are enforced.

if they were married. then under Thai Civil legal provisions governing inheritance she is entitled to the funds.

if they were only married in the temple but not registered then she needs to press a claim through the court with facts that they have been living together and then the court will rule her to be the sucessor.

Very good comment. I will pass this on to the 2 people that I know of that got 'shafted' and see what they have to say.

Have you ever been involved in a civil court case in Thailand? I have - and won - BUT the lawyer produced and presented to the court so much BS that the case didn't even come close to the FACTS. Through an interpreter I was asked many questions BUT never had the chance to reply - (to the majority of the questions) the interpreter did it for me.

So, please do not tell me that there are laws that will protected the less fortunate or undereducated. Whoever has the RIGHT lawyer will win and the poor sod that should be the winner is out in the cold - so to speak.

Secondly, if you read the original statement, my wife IS NOT a Thai citizen. This basicly means that she HAS NO RIGHTS. The reason I left Thailand is because of the way she was treated by the 'government' employees at the Ampur and Chiangwad level. After 4 years of 'KISSING ARSE' I just could not take it anymore. Letters (again, Arse Kissing) to the Interior Minster himself resulted in ZERO replies. If you have any idea what it takes to get Thai citizenship in this country then you might have an ingling as to why I sound so bitter. 'They' bend and present 'their' own rules!

So, I have no respect for Thai laws or made on the spot 'government' rules.

I am trying to find a way, other than a Thai bank account, to protect my wife's current and future monetary assets. I DO NOT trust a Thai bank to abide by their rules or 'government' laws.

I have considered doing 'wire transfers' directly into her bank account so that she would have PROOF that the funds came from legit sources. But I still worry that 'her' relatives may turn on her if they determine that she is of means and want some for themselves.

It is not my intension to start a 'battle' of words. If people will learn to stick to the 'Topic' instead of trying to read into the topic what is not there, we would all be better off.

There is nobody on this 'board' that has any idea what I have gone through or put up with for the 4-5 years that I was living in Thailand. So, please, stick to the topic.

How to protect my wife's monetary assets from being 'stolen' by a bank, 'relatives' or 'government' agency.

Thank you - SINCERELY - for any advise.

I am still leaving Thailand in a week - visa expires - so I would really appreciate some good advice on the subject presented.

Edited June 19, 2007 by chiangrai57020

[The Skipper]

Set up a trust?

Talk with a tax preparer and see what they recommend.

Look into opening an investment acct. at Charles Schwab or some other place?

They should be able to set you up, no? Make her benificary or joint acct holder or open her an account if possible.

If she ends up with a windfall upon your demise, there will be incredible pressure on her from relatives.

She will be broke in no time.

Invest and have monthly allowance automatically directed into the bank and give her an ATM Card to access.

[The Skipper]

sorry guys but this sound like an urban legend..

.............

any confescation of the funds can only be made through a court order.

on the contrary to most Farrang legends... thailand has laws and they are enforced.

They have laws and maybe enforced, sometimes.... The real problem is that logic is not a strong point in Thailand and everybody lies in Court.

You are not Thai and she doesn't have proper paperwork. What are the chances you will get a fair shake?

[Begbie]

This sound's completely crazy.

This sounds a little far fetched,even for Thailand.

Now who's being naive?

Nothing's too far fetched for Thailand.

[wolfmanjack]

sorry guys but this sound like an urban legend..

thai banking laws are very well defined and the comercial bank can not give your funds to anyone. the comercial banks are very carfull about this isuue.

and the poo yai ban and others can not jsut step ito the bank and confiscate funds.

any confescation of the funds can only be made through a court order.

on the contrary to most Farrang legends... thailand has laws and they are enforced.

if they were married. then under Thai Civil legal provisions governing inheritance she is entitled to the funds.

if they were only married in the temple but not registered then she needs to press a claim through the court with facts that they have been living together and then the court will rule her to be the sucessor.

Very good comment. I will pass this on to the 2 people that I know of that got 'shafted' and see what they have to say.

Have you ever been involved in a civil court case in Thailand? I have - and won - BUT the lawyer produced and presented to the court so much BS that the case didn't even come close to the FACTS. Through an interpreter I was asked many questions BUT never had the chance to reply - (to the majority of the questions) the interpreter did it for me.

So, please do not tell me that there are laws that will protected the less fortunate or undereducated. Whoever has the RIGHT lawyer will win and the poor sod that should be the winner is out in the cold - so to speak.

Secondly, if you read the original statement, my wife IS NOT a Thai citizen. This basicly means that she HAS NO RIGHTS. The reason I left Thailand is because of the way she was treated by the 'government' employees at the Ampur and Chiangwad level. After 4 years of 'KISSING ARSE' I just could not take it anymore. Letters (again, Arse Kissing) to the Interior Minster himself resulted in ZERO replies. If you have any idea what it takes to get Thai citizenship in this country then you might have an ingling as to why I sound so bitter. 'They' bend and present 'their' own rules!

So, I have no respect for Thai laws or made on the spot 'government' rules.

I am trying to find a way, other than a Thai bank account, to protect my wife's current and future monetary assets. I DO NOT trust a Thai bank to abide by their rules or 'government' laws.

I have considered doing 'wire transfers' directly into her bank account so that she would have PROOF that the funds came from legit sources. But I still worry that 'her' relatives may turn on her if they determine that she is of means and want some for themselves.

It is not my intension to start a 'battle' of words. If people will learn to stick to the 'Topic' instead of trying to read into the topic what is not there, we would all be better off.

There is nobody on this 'board' that has any idea what I have gone through or put up with for the 4-5 years that I was living in Thailand. So, please, stick to the topic.

How to protect my wife's monetary assets from being 'stolen' by a bank, 'relatives' or 'government' agency.

Thank you - SINCERELY - for any advise.

I am still leaving Thailand in a week - visa expires - so I would really appreciate some good advice on the subject presented.

Set up an account in the USA and give her an ATM on that account. Also set up an insurance policy that is paid in monthly installments to her upon your death.

[Heng]

Even as a local, the bulk of my funds are in Singapore and HK. That said, I still do keep a substantial amount here in the big 3 banks and have never had anything less than professional happen to me or any of my dosh (or family's dosh over the last 3-4 generations).

[Mid]

Even as a local, the bulk of my funds are in Singapore and HK.

very telling statement .

[mellow1]

We just spoke to the manager at the Bangkok Bank,were we have our joint account.

She said that no one has access to our account,only us.In order for someone else(other family members) to have access,special paperwork has to be submitted and signed,by an account owner.

If I die my wife automatically is the sole owner of the account,and vice versa.

As far as keeping a lot of money in the bank in Thailand,be aware that bank accounts here are not insured.In the USA. each account is insured up to $100,000,I believe.

Also having your money in a bank account would cause you to loose money.They do not even pay enough interest to keep up with inflation.

My ATM card from First of America,has been useless in Thailand for more than a year.The bank will not allow any ATM transactions in Thailand,due to theft and corruption.That's what they told me when I asked.

Good luck with your problem,our money is invested in land,and our home.We live on my pension.My pension goes to a bank account in the US,I then transfer it here.I'm thinking of changing that and having it come directly here.In case something happens to me,then my wife can more easily deal with it as she is also covered by my pension,as is our son.

[Losangels]

In Thailand if you have a joint account open as "either/or" or "joint signature" to make withdrawals, in the event one of the account holders dies, the bank automatically freezes the account IF they find out about it. In order to have access to the account the account holder (live one of course )have to go to the court to become an excuter or in Thai term- Manager of the inheratance. How can you become one? it is a little tricky in that all the immediate family members must agree to allow and appoint you as an excuter of the estate. As in many cases there will be a conflict as in who should be the one because if he/she is a crook all the money and assets can end up with that individual.

A will may not be a good alternative because any relative can contest it or you may end up with a crooked lawyer which can alter the will any way he wants without your knowledge.

If it sounds like the whole system is -ucked, it really is, but if you are aware of the possible problems you can find ways around it. Example if your partner of the joint account passes, don' t tell the bank, withdraw most of the money but DO NOT close the account because joint signatures are required to close the account

[tijnebijn]

I guess the one who is still alive just to withdraw all the money, like one poster said , just withdraw from the ATM. Another thing about these legal things, isn't it when you have children, who are Thai citizens , do not automatically get all properties ? I mean the other thai family members do not have a chance do they ? On the other hand when not having children ,the wife should make a will , so the husband can stay on the property until he dies, but own I guess cannot .

Or am I just missing something........

[mellow1]

Aren't there any Thai members on this forum who can help clarify this issue?How can we get some real feedback on this.Is there someone who has professional qualifications in banking.This sounds like paranoid propaganda.

[mellow1]

I just spoke to the bank manager again,giving her the name of the banks in question.She plainly said that no banks in Thailand can do this,and she also suggested that there is something fishy going on

chiangrai57020.

[highdiver]

I just spoke to the bank manager again,giving her the name of the banks in question.She plainly said that no banks in Thailand can do this,and she also suggested that there is something fishy going on

chiangrai57020.

As i said before its an urban legend!!!

i also spoke with my bank manager today (scb)and he said its a nice story.

if you die then the bank , any bank in the world will freeze the account until a court order will determine who is the rightful inheritor.

the reason they do this is to protect the bank from any liability of giving funds to the wrong people.

if you are maried and registered then upon your death your wife will aplly to the court to be declared as your inharritor and then with the court order the bank will give her total acess to the account.

if you are not registerd and there in no will then it becomes more difficult as other family members may stake claims to the inherritence. this happens not only in thailand but all over the world.

the best way to secure your inheritence is to have a will properly signed and documented.

[Losangels]

if you die then the bank , any bank in the world will freeze the account until a court order will determine who is the rightful inheritor.

May I differ, in the US when you open a bank account the signature card or the application to open the account will have a section naming benficiary. If you request to put let say you wife or son or daughter,

they will get the remaining bank balance if you leave this world

[shochu]

I find it humorous that so many have this mistrust for the place they inhabit.

I see many foreigners - whether they be Indian, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Middle Eastern - all with businesses doing well here and never making these complaints.

So - one has to wonder and ask - Whaz up!

Edited June 20, 2007 by shochu

[chiangrai57020]

Highdiver/mellow1: Correct again! "If it smells like a fish, It must be a fish." I have only related what was told to me - That is why I became and continue to be worried. The 2 stories may or may not be true! BUT, Why would my 2 banks specifically state that there is only 'ONE owner' of an account?

Legally - A non-Thai female CANNOT register her marriage in Thailand. Therefore the marriage is not recognized in Thailand. We had a 'village, traditional marriage ceremony over 5 years ago.

I did go back to the bank today for further explanation. Again I was told - "Only One Owner" to an account - Primary signatory. The other person or persons (owners) named on the account can withdraw/transfer funds if Primary is alive but it is up to the bank as to what happens to the funds when Primary dies. From what I understood, because the wife and I are NOT married (?) she will not be permitted to have access to the account after I am gone. YES, the funds are Frozen. A 'Will' would have to be probated before funds would be released to her. BUT, as said, the relatives could step in and demand a pay-off!

The Skipper/wolfmanjack: I like your ideas regarding a trust or USA bank account in her name. The trust could be somewhat complicated! The USA bank account seems to be the easiest which could be used to make a monthly 'wire transfer' from her USA account to her Thailand account. I like this method and will set it up when I get back to the USA. Don't know if anyone has knowledge BUT another question - Can a non-USA citizen open a USA account? Goes without saying that I will confirm this.

I will also consider doing 'wire transfers' from my USA account directly to her 'owner' account in Thailand. Any money left in the 'Joint Account' will be so small that she will not have to worry about it BUT could use the ATM method - she has my ATM card.

For the positive posters - Thank you very much for your help. It is very much appreciated.